HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Rangers Prospect Poll: #13

View Poll Results: Who is our #13 prospect?
G Cam Talbot 5 8.06%
C Steven Fogarty 17 27.42%
D Peter Ceresnak 2 3.23%
D Sam Noreau 19 30.65%
D Calle Andersson 17 27.42%
RW Shane McColgan 2 3.23%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-17-2013, 04:56 PM
  #1
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,517
vCash: 500
Rangers Prospect Poll: #13

Kyle Jean easily won round 12. RW Shane McColgan is added to the next poll.

Please write who you want added to the poll, and give a reason for it. This makes the discussion here more lively.


TOP PROSPECTS

1. LW Chris Kreider
2. LW Carl Hagelin
3. C J.T. Miller
4. D Dylan McIlrath
5. D Brady Skjei


SECOND TIER

6. RW Jesper Fast
7. C Oscar Lindberg
8. LW Marek Hrivik
9. RW Christian Thomas
10. C Michael St. Croix
11. C Cristoval Nieves


PROJECTS

12. LW Kyle Jean


Kyle Jean
Left Wing
Born Mar 1 1990 -- Sault Ste. Marie, MI
Height 6.04 -- Weight 203 -- Shoots L

2012-13 Connecticut Whale AHL 38 8 10 18 25


Beacon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 04:59 PM
  #2
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,517
vCash: 500
Voted for Sam Noreau because even a third pair defenseman is more valuable than a bottom-6 forward (Fogarty potential) or a backup goalie (Talbot potential). Plus, he's going to have more points this year than in all 3 prior years of junior hockey combined. Noreau is a good skater and a punishing fighter. I like him.

Add Yogi the Bear. Not sure how Foggy is getting votes while he's not even on the list.

Beacon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 05:12 PM
  #3
silverfish
KEVIN!
 
silverfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Standing on a Train
Country: United States
Posts: 16,035
vCash: 500
Fogarty. Add Bourque

silverfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 05:18 PM
  #4
bernmeister
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,760
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
Voted for Sam Noreau because even a third pair defenseman is more valuable than a bottom-6 forward (Fogarty potential) or a backup goalie (Talbot potential). Plus, he's going to have more points this year than in all 3 prior years of junior hockey combined. Noreau is a good skater and a punishing fighter. I like him.

Add Yogi the Bear. Not sure how Foggy is getting votes while he's not even on the list.
This^.
Add Yogan, still has upside scoring potential.
Also pls add Pashnin, Parlett

bernmeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 05:19 PM
  #5
E-Train
Registered User
 
E-Train's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Long Island
Posts: 1,349
vCash: 500
Noreau. Add Yogan

E-Train is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 05:20 PM
  #6
BrooklynRangersFan
Change is good.
 
BrooklynRangersFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brooklyn of course
Country: United States
Posts: 10,562
vCash: 500
Noreau. Looked good (but limited) in TC a couple of years back, which was my only viewing of him, but you cannot ignore progression like he's shown this year. Throw in the fact that he is nearly as fearsome as McIlrath (some would argue more polished) with the mitts and he's an easy choice here.

Add Yogan.

BrooklynRangersFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 05:21 PM
  #7
eco's bones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Elmira NY
Country: United States
Posts: 12,767
vCash: 500
Talbot. Yogan. IMO arguably Talbot is Connecticut's MVP so far this year.

eco's bones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 05:29 PM
  #8
BBKers
Registered User
 
BBKers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: South Koster, Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 5,824
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to BBKers
Add Mashinter if eligible
If not add Zuccarello

BBKers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 05:41 PM
  #9
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,517
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Talbot. Yogan. IMO arguably Talbot is Connecticut's MVP so far this year.
He would've been the team's MVP if he didn't let in an occasional bad goal. Just last game. he was tremendous the whole game except for one horrendous goal. Needs to take care of that.

Beacon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 05:42 PM
  #10
we want cup
We do not Sow
 
we want cup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Minneapolis
Country: United States
Posts: 10,745
vCash: 500
Noreau, add Yogan.

__________________

RANGERS =
we want cup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 05:57 PM
  #11
mrjimmyg89
'13-'14 East Champs
 
mrjimmyg89's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,872
vCash: 500
Ceresnak looked good in the WJC to me. Looked better offensively than advertised. Add Yogan

mrjimmyg89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 06:35 PM
  #12
Zil
Registered User
 
Zil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 4,292
vCash: 500
Andersson, add Spelling

Zil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 06:53 PM
  #13
Rangers_23
Beuke!
 
Rangers_23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Land of Entrapment
Country: United States
Posts: 2,192
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Rangers_23 Send a message via MSN to Rangers_23
"The Island of Doctor" Noreau. Add Yogan.


Last edited by Rangers_23: 01-17-2013 at 08:10 PM. Reason: Didn't see Ceresnak was already added, switched to Yogan
Rangers_23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 07:29 PM
  #14
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,517
vCash: 500
This might be a very close round, potentially 3-way.

Beacon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 07:51 PM
  #15
HatTrick Swayze
Tomato Potato
 
HatTrick Swayze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,580
vCash: 500
Fogarty has way more than bottom 6 potential. Great hands and vision. Check out some of the goals he scored in the BCHL last year.

Add Spelling.

__________________
"Here we can see the agression of american people. They love fighting and guns. when they wont win they try to kill us all." -HalfOfFame
HatTrick Swayze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 08:44 PM
  #16
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,517
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Fogarty has way more than bottom 6 potential. Great hands and vision. Check out some of the goals he scored in the BCHL last year.

Add Spelling.

Yeah, check out some of the goals that I scored in the beer league playing against a bunch of middle aged men with beer guts who have regular jobs instead of practicing!

Who cares about being able to score in the BCHL? It's a BS league. Any draftee looks good down there because his opposition is total garbage that will never be good enough to play in the ECHL and is likely looking forward to trying to make the Brooklyn Aviators team. He was only #6 on his team during the regular season and #8 during the playoffs. Combining the regular season and the playoffs, he was #7 on his team. None of that is very impressive.

Compare him to Nieves, who's the same size and a year younger. Nieves is a first liner. Sure, his team is weaker, but not because of their fowards. Michigan scores as much as Notre Dame, they just give up 3.5 goals a game (and almost 5 a game against other CCHA teams) due to bad defense and terrible goaltending. Nieves would've been a top-6 player on Notre Dame had he played for that team. Foggy is barely a player there. Maybe on a weaker team, he'd have been a third liner, but there's no tier-1 team where he does what Nieves has done this year, while being a year younger.

There's absolutely no reason to believe Foggy has top-6 NHL potential.

Beacon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 08:54 PM
  #17
Rangerfan4life90
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: College Point, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 4,676
vCash: 500
Fogarty absolutely has potential to be a top six forward.

Rangerfan4life90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 08:58 PM
  #18
EvilCorporateLawyer
Very slippery slope
 
EvilCorporateLawyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Country Roads
Country: United States
Posts: 75,161
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to EvilCorporateLawyer
Noreau. Add whoever you feel like. As long as it's not Bourque.

__________________
"Of course giving Sather cap space is like giving teenagers whiskey and car keys." - SBOB
"Watching Sather build a team is like watching a blind man with no fingers trying to put together an elaborate puzzle." - Shadowtron
"Used to be only Twinkies and cockroaches could survive a nuke. I'd add Habs to that. I'm convinced the CH stands for Club du Hypocrisy." - Gee Wally
EvilCorporateLawyer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 09:00 PM
  #19
HatTrick Swayze
Tomato Potato
 
HatTrick Swayze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,580
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
Yeah, check out some of the goals that I scored in the beer league playing against a bunch of middle aged men with beer guts who have regular jobs instead of practicing!

Who cares about being able to score in the BCHL? It's a BS league. Any draftee looks good down there because his opposition is total garbage that will never be good enough to play in the ECHL and is likely looking forward to trying to make the Brooklyn Aviators team. He was only #6 on his team during the regular season and #8 during the playoffs. Combining the regular season and the playoffs, he was #7 on his team. None of that is very impressive.

Compare him to Nieves, who's the same size and a year younger. Nieves is a first liner. Sure, his team is weaker, but not because of their fowards. Michigan scores as much as Notre Dame, they just give up 3.5 goals a game (and almost 5 a game against other CCHA teams) due to bad defense and terrible goaltending. Nieves would've been a top-6 player on Notre Dame had he played for that team. Foggy is barely a player there. Maybe on a weaker team, he'd have been a third liner, but there's no tier-1 team where he does what Nieves has done this year, while being a year younger.

There's absolutely no reason to believe Foggy has top-6 NHL potential.
BCHL is a beer league? Ok buddy. Is the USHL a beer league? It may not mean as much as an OHL or NCAA season but "beer league" is ridiculous hyperbole. Look if point rankings and line rankings are your sole basis for evaluating prospects there is nothing to discuss. Let's hear your algorithm for predicting players so that we can just get a definitive list and call it a day.

How about how Jeff Jackson runs the most defensive system in the NCAA? There is no chance Nieves would have been a top-6 center on a defensive team over Anders Lee and TJ Tynan. Nieves walked into a great developmental situation on a terrible team. It's comparing apples to oranges.

I would never say that Fogarty is likely to reach his top-end potential, which is a 50pt defensive forward, but it's there. He was one of the most skilled players I have seen come through MN HS hockey in recent years, though extremely unrefined. The reason to see his potential is called using your eyes instead of pure statistics. He's a 3-4 year college player.

HatTrick Swayze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 09:03 PM
  #20
EvilCorporateLawyer
Very slippery slope
 
EvilCorporateLawyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Country Roads
Country: United States
Posts: 75,161
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to EvilCorporateLawyer
Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
BCHL is a beer league? Ok buddy. Is the USHL a beer league? It may not mean as much as an OHL or NCAA season but "beer league" is ridiculous hyperbole. Look if point rankings and line rankings are your sole basis for evaluating prospects there is nothing to discuss. Let's hear your algorithm for predicting players so that we can just get a definitive list and call it a day.

How about how Jeff Jackson runs the most defensive system in the NCAA? There is no chance Nieves would have been a top-6 center on a defensive team over Anders Lee and TJ Tynan. Nieves walked into a great developmental situation on a terrible team. It's comparing apples to oranges.

I would never say that Fogarty is likely to reach his top-end potential, which is a 50pt defensive forward, but it's there. He was one of the most skilled players I have seen come through MN HS hockey in recent years, though extremely unrefined. The reason to see his potential is called using your eyes instead of pure statistics. He's a 3-4 year college player.
Agreed. Fogarty is a long-term project.

The BCHL isn't as good as the USHL, but it isn't a beer league either. A notch below the USHL, IMHO.

EvilCorporateLawyer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 09:24 PM
  #21
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,517
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
BCHL is a beer league? Ok buddy. Is the USHL a beer league? It may not mean as much as an OHL or NCAA season but "beer league" is ridiculous hyperbole.
It's not a beer league, but it's a very low end league. Let's put it this way. Your average BCHL team wouldn't stand a chance against an ECHL team. In fact, it would lose 9 times out of 10 against CHL teams.

Most BCHLers, if they will have any kind of a career, will go on to play in either the Federal League (Brooklyn Aviators) or the Southern Professional League. This is the level of hockey they are playing. The average BCHL team playing against the Brooklyn Aviators would be an even money bet in Vegas, so let's not pretend that scoring 80 points in 60 games there is a huge accomplishment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Look if point rankings and line rankings are your sole basis for evaluating prospects there is nothing to discuss.
This is a strawman argument. Every time a point is brought up against a prospect, I hear, "if this is the only thing to evaluate, then there is nothing to discuss." Nobody is saying it's the only thing, but it's one of the things we can look at. He was a second liner in the BCHL. He's a 4th liner in the CCHA. The fact that he can't beat out players with no AHL future is troublesome.

It's funny how nobody thinks that it's unimportant that Lindberg and Fast are first liners, but when a kid stumbles, suddenly where he plays is irrelevant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Let's hear your algorithm for predicting players so that we can just get a definitive list and call it a day.
Strawman argument again. What you are saying is that if something isn't 100% predictive, it means that it has ZERO value. This is obviously false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
How about how Jeff Jackson runs the most defensive system in the NCAA?
Hrivik also played in the most defensive system in the QMJHL, but while that lowered his overall stats, he was still a first liner on the team, and scored more than lesser players on his team. Foggy is playing on the 4th line as a 19 year old.

As for the team being defensive-minded, it didn't stop Robbie Russo, same age as Foggy, from scoring over a point a game as a defenseman. Six players have more than 0.7 points per game on that team. Not terrible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
There is no chance Nieves would have been a top-6 center on a defensive team over Anders Lee and TJ Tynan.
If a player can play, coaches will find a spot for him. He can be a third liner who plays on the PP and moves up to the top-6 when someone is injured or struggling or the coach just wants to juggle the lines. Either way, he plays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Nieves walked into a great developmental situation on a terrible team. It's comparing apples to oranges.
Players make their own situation good or bad. You can argue that walking into a terrible team isn't "great" at all. Your linemates aren't great, you are constantly bummed out from losing, there's never-ending finger-pointing as to who's responsible for the losing.

Let me tell you this: U of Michigan is much, much better than the Penticton Vees. If Foggy couldn't be an above average player on the Vees, what would possess you to believe he could match Nieves's performance as a first liner in Michigan?

Foggy had his chance to walk onto a team with low-level competition, and he was only a middling player on that team.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
I would never say that Fogarty is likely to reach his top-end potential, which is a 50pt defensive forward, but it's there.
This is an argument based on what exactly? What is the basis for saying it? What I wrote, good or bad, was at least a reason for why I think what I think. What is your reason for saying this? You read a scouting report that said he was a good skater for his size? Who cares! These reports are comparing him to other mid-round picks, most of whom will wind up career ECHLers. There's absolutely nothing to suggest he has 50-point potential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
He was one of the most skilled players I have seen come through MN HS hockey in recent years, though extremely unrefined. The reason to see his potential is called using your eyes instead of pure statistics. He's a 3-4 year college player.
Ok, and how many times have you used your eyes in personally evaluating Foggy? Let me ask you this: has his coach in both ND and in Penticton seen him more than you did? And they've concluded that he belongs on the lines below those of future AHLers. What does that tell you?


Last edited by Beacon: 01-17-2013 at 09:30 PM.
Beacon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 09:40 PM
  #22
HatTrick Swayze
Tomato Potato
 
HatTrick Swayze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,580
vCash: 500
I'm not going to continue this debate, because at the end of the day the only thing that is going to determine Fogarty's future is Fogarty.

The one consistent logical flaw in your argument is that you assume coaches decisions at minor levels is at all predictive of NHL future. A coach's job is to maximize the talent on his roster to win games now. Different levels require different skillsets to be successful. Being unable to "beat out players with no AHL futures" means very little, until viewed in a broader context.

We will know in a few years. And no, I don't base evaluations off "reading scouting reports".

HatTrick Swayze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 10:07 PM
  #23
Kendo
Registered User
 
Kendo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Hamburger Train.
Posts: 238
vCash: 500
Noreau. Add Yogan.

Kendo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 10:09 PM
  #24
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,517
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
The one consistent logical flaw in your argument is that you assume coaches decisions at minor levels is at all predictive of NHL future.

Again, you are making an error where you judge something as a 0 or 100% game. You just said that a coach's decision is not at all predictive of the player's future in the NHL. That is patently false on its face. So you are telling me that if a player can't make the team, the reason is always something unrelated to the player's talent?

The reality is that 9 times out of 10, where a player plays is determined by his talent + experience + physical development. There are exceptions, of course, but to suggest that these exceptions are the rule is just false.

Just as it is great to see Lindberg on the SEL first line, it is less than exciting to see Foggy on the fourth line of a lesser league.

Beacon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2013, 10:23 PM
  #25
EvilCorporateLawyer
Very slippery slope
 
EvilCorporateLawyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Country Roads
Country: United States
Posts: 75,161
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to EvilCorporateLawyer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
It's not a beer league, but it's a very low end league. Let's put it this way. Your average BCHL team wouldn't stand a chance against an ECHL team. In fact, it would lose 9 times out of 10 against CHL teams.
Dude. The BCHL is a junior league. What does the ECHL have to do with it?

EvilCorporateLawyer is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:43 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.