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Old
01-07-2013, 11:36 AM
  #1
87center
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Rank Their Ability

I remember reading a book back in the 90's that ranked NHL players in several catergories. When they were in their prime how would rank Lindros, Forsberg, Jagr, Fedorov, Bure, Modano, Selanne, Kovalev, Mogilny and Sakic in the following categories.

Wrist Shot
Slap Shot
Checking Ability
Endurance
Pass Ability
Puck Control

Here is my list. In edition to playing hockey, I watched a ton of it as well, especially in the 90's and early 2000's. Unfortunately, I fell out of love with the game when the lockout happened in the mid 2000's.

Wrist Shot (Combination of Accuracy and Power):
1) Sakic
2) Kovalev
3) Jagr
4) Lindros
5) Fedorov
6) Bure
7) Mogilny
8) Modano
9) Selanne
10) Forsberg

Slap Shot (Combination of Accuracy and Power)
1) Fedorov
2) Bure
3) Selanne
4) Jagr
5) Sakic
6) Lindros
7) Mogilny
8) Modano
9) Kovalev
10) Forsberg

Pass Ability
1) Forsberg
2) Jagr
3) Sakic
4) Fedorov
5) Lindros
6) Modano
7) Selanne
8) Mogilny
9) Bure
10) Kovalev

Endurance (ATOI, double shifts and PP/PK duties)

1) Jagr
2) Forsberg
3) Federov
4) Sakic
5) Lindros
6) Modano
7) Bure
8) Selanne
9) Mogilny
10) Kovalev

Checking Ability
1) Lindros
2) Forsberg
3) Fedorov
4) Modano
5) Sakic
6) Selanne
7) ?

Thoughts?


Last edited by 87center: 01-07-2013 at 12:45 PM.
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01-07-2013, 11:54 AM
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Uh that's a lot of work to do.

I will do one category, I didn't watch all of these players live, but I know a lot from YouTube and information from here.

Puck Control : Bure, Kovalev, Forsberg, Sakic, Federov, Modano, Mogilny, Selanne, Lindros

Just my opinion though, might be off.

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01-07-2013, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MillarWithASave View Post
Uh that's a lot of work to do.

I will do one category, I didn't watch all of these players live, but I know a lot from YouTube and information from here.

Puck Control : Bure, Kovalev, Forsberg, Sakic, Federov, Modano, Mogilny, Selanne, Lindros

Just my opinion though, might be off.
Lindros wouldn't be last in any category

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01-07-2013, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MillarWithASave View Post
Uh that's a lot of work to do.

I will do one category, I didn't watch all of these players live, but I know a lot from YouTube and information from here.

Puck Control : Bure, Kovalev, Forsberg, Sakic, Federov, Modano, Mogilny, Selanne, Lindros

Just my opinion though, might be off.
Lindros last in puck control? LOL

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01-07-2013, 12:28 PM
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TAnnala
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Originally Posted by 87center View Post
I remember reading a book back in the 90's that ranked NHL players in several catergories. When they were in their prime how would rank Lindros, Forsberg, Jagr, Fedorov, Bure, Modano, Selanne, Kovalev, Mogilny and Sakic in the following categories.

Wrist Shot
Slap Shot
Checking Ability
Endurance
Passing
Puck Control

Thx in Adv
This would be better in the History section. Also, you would get very good answer in there. Maybe a friendly mod. can move this?

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01-07-2013, 12:29 PM
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Lindros last in puck control? LOL
Who would you put last?

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01-07-2013, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
This would be better in the History section. Also, you would get very good answer in there. Maybe a friendly mod. can move this?
Sorry. New here. Wasn't sure where to put it.

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01-07-2013, 12:34 PM
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I'm not qualified to do a full ranking, but I would take a stab at the best of each:

Wrist shot: Sakic
Slap shot: Fedorov? (Could shoot 100+ mph)
Checking ability: Lindros (Physically dominant)
Endurance: ??? (Unsure about this)
Passing: Forsberg
Puck Control: Kovalev (One of the best stickhandlers of all time)

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01-07-2013, 03:04 PM
  #9
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Puck control should definitely be Jagr's. Mogilny should be second or third in wrist shot, and Selanne is a better playmaker than Modano IMO.

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01-07-2013, 03:08 PM
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Puck control should definitely be Jagr's.
Somehow he is the only one of the 10 not listed.

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01-07-2013, 03:18 PM
  #11
vadim sharifijanov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87center View Post
I remember reading a book back in the 90's that ranked NHL players in several catergories. When they were in their prime how would rank Lindros, Forsberg, Jagr, Fedorov, Bure, Modano, Selanne, Kovalev, Mogilny and Sakic in the following categories.
i'll do top fives:

wrist shot

1. sakic
2. mogilny
3. bure
4. selanne
5. lindros/jagr


checking ability (assuming this is actual defensive checking, not just body checking)

1. fedorov
2. modano
3. lindros
4. forsberg
5. sakic


endurance

1. fedorov
2. bure
3. modano
4. jagr
5. sakic


passing ability

1. jagr
2. forsberg
3. lindros
4. sakic
5. mogilny


puck control

1. jagr
2. forsberg
3. bure
4. lindros
5. mogilny


not sure that if you add up the top five finishes these video game-type rankings will tell you anything about who was the best player though.

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01-07-2013, 04:41 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
passing ability

1. jagr
2. forsberg
3. lindros
4. sakic
5. mogilny


puck control

1. jagr
2. forsberg
3. bure
4. lindros
5. mogilny
I'd rank Forsberg over Jagr in terms of passing. Forsberg was a better pure passer and seen the ice better IMO.

The biggest advantage Jagr had in passing was that he was an unparalleled puck possession player. So I do agree that he's #1 in the puck control category, followed by Forsberg. But back to my point, Jagr could hang onto the puck pretty much longer than anybody in the offensive zone, which opened up more passing lanes and gave him a unique advantage. Obviously most great playmakers are really good puck possession players, but Jagr and his rear end were just a different type of animal.

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01-07-2013, 05:14 PM
  #13
MadLuke
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For endurance:
IIRC correctly Bure had crazy ice time (with the panthers at least).

Lindros and Jagr are two of the modern foward with most ice time by games too I think.

Wrist Shot, Lindros had a very strong wrist shot, but Sakic had the best imo, and probably the best shot overall.

Puck control: if you include controlling and skating with the puck doing stuff, jagr is one of the best of all time, Bure was very good at high speed, but career wise Jagr is one of the best puck possession of all time.

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01-07-2013, 07:43 PM
  #14
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Wrist Shot (Combination of Release, Accuracy and Power):
1) Sakic
2) Kovalev
3) Jagr
4) Lindros
5) Fedorov
6) Bure
7) Selanne
8) Mogilny
9) Modano
10) Forsberg

Slap Shot (Combination of Release, Accuracy and Power)
1) Fedorov
2) Kovalev
3) Modano
4) Lindros
5) Jagr
6) Bure
7) Selanne
8) Sakic
9) Mogilny
10) Forsberg

Pass Ability
1) Forsberg
2) Jagr
3) Sakic
4) Fedorov
5) Lindros
6) Kovalev
7) Selanne
8) Mogilny
9) Bure
10) Modano

Endurance (ATOI, double shifts and PP/PK duties)

1) Fedorov
2) Jagr
3) Forsberg
4) Sakic
5) Bure
6) Lindros
7) Selanne
8) Modano
9) Kovalev
10) Mogilny

Checking Ability (Physical play)
1) Lindros
2) Forsberg
3) Fedorov
4) Jagr
5) Kovalev
6) Bure
7) Modano
8) Sakic
9) Selanne
10) Mogilny

Defensive performance
1) Fedorov
2) Sakic
3) Forsberg
4) Lindros
5) Modano
6) Bure
7) Selanne
8) Jagr
9) Kovalev
10) Mogilny

Puck control
1) Jagr
2) Fedorov
3) Kovalev
4) Bure
5) Forsberg
6) Mogilny
7) Sakic
8) Lindros
9) Selanne
10) Modano

Skating
1) Fedorov
2) Bure
3) Mogilny
4) Selanne
5) Jagr
6) Modano
7) Kovalev
8) Sakic
9) Forsberg
10) Lindros

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01-07-2013, 10:00 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Wrist Shot (Combination of Release, Accuracy and Power):
1) Sakic
2) Kovalev
3) Jagr
4) Lindros
5) Fedorov
6) Bure
7) Selanne
8) Mogilny
9) Modano
10) Forsberg

Slap Shot (Combination of Release, Accuracy and Power)
1) Fedorov
2) Kovalev
3) Modano
4) Lindros
5) Jagr
6) Bure
7) Selanne
8) Sakic
9) Mogilny
10) Forsberg

Pass Ability
1) Forsberg
2) Jagr
3) Sakic
4) Fedorov
5) Lindros
6) Kovalev
7) Selanne
8) Mogilny
9) Bure
10) Modano

Endurance (ATOI, double shifts and PP/PK duties)

1) Fedorov
2) Jagr
3) Forsberg
4) Sakic
5) Bure
6) Lindros
7) Selanne
8) Modano
9) Kovalev
10) Mogilny

Checking Ability (Physical play)
1) Lindros
2) Forsberg
3) Fedorov
4) Jagr
5) Kovalev
6) Bure
7) Modano
8) Sakic
9) Selanne
10) Mogilny

Defensive performance
1) Fedorov
2) Sakic
3) Forsberg
4) Lindros
5) Modano
6) Bure
7) Selanne
8) Jagr
9) Kovalev
10) Mogilny

Puck control
1) Jagr
2) Fedorov
3) Kovalev
4) Bure
5) Forsberg
6) Mogilny
7) Sakic
8) Lindros
9) Selanne
10) Modano

Skating
1) Fedorov
2) Bure
3) Mogilny
4) Selanne
5) Jagr
6) Modano
7) Kovalev
8) Sakic
9) Forsberg
10) Lindros
Not that it is anything close to perfect but what if you gave each rank a point (1st=10) and then did an aggregate ranking on how it would look.

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01-07-2013, 11:18 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Not that it is anything close to perfect but what if you gave each rank a point (1st=10) and then did an aggregate ranking on how it would look.
If it were 10-9-8-7-etc., I don't see any other way but Fedorov dominating the ranking. He was so good at so many things that in a metric like that which favors all-around players, he's likely to win.

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01-07-2013, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If it were 10-9-8-7-etc., I don't see any other way but Fedorov dominating the ranking. He was so good at so many things that in a metric like that which favors all-around players, he's likely to win.
Yeah, Fedorov would probably take it. Jagr and Forsberg would be good too.

I don't necessary agree that this kind of listing tells a lot about players abilities, but it is interesting nonetheless.

BTW. I think Selanne was a tad better skater than Moginly. He was actually relatively close to Bure before his Achilles tendon was cut.



Edit:

I am too lazy to do my own ranking right now, so I will use Eva Unit's ranking (even if i don't necessary agree with all of it) in a 10-9-8-7.... system only with total points not finishes.

1. Fedorov 70p.
2. Jagr 58p.
3. Sakic 47p.
4. Lindros 46p.
5. Forsberg/Kovalev 45p.
7. Bure 44p.
8. Selanne 32p.
9. Modano 30p.
10. Moginly 23p.

Interestingly Kovalev is the only one that is really out of place (also Fedorov is too high, but he did arguably have the greatest season from all these players). I think there is a case to be made that peak-wise these players (removing Kovalev, man if he would just have cared enough!) could be ranked somewhere like this.


Last edited by TAnnala: 01-08-2013 at 12:14 AM.
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01-08-2013, 12:41 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Yeah, Fedorov would probably take it. Jagr and Forsberg would be good too.

I don't necessary agree that this kind of listing tells a lot about players abilities, but it is interesting nonetheless.

BTW. I think Selanne was a tad better skater than Moginly. He was actually relatively close to Bure before his Achilles tendon was cut.
Of the three, I rank Selanne the lowest because of this:

Mogilny had a slight edge on Bure in speed, and Bure edged out Selanne.

Bure had the acceleration and agility a step above Mogilny or Selanne, who were basically equal in that regard.

Quote:
1. Fedorov 70p.
2. Jagr 58p.
3. Sakic 47p.
4. Lindros 46p.
5. Forsberg/Kovalev 45p.
7. Bure 44p.
8. Selanne 32p.
9. Modano 30p.
10. Moginly 23p.

Interestingly Kovalev is the only one that is really out of place (also Fedorov is too high, but he did arguably have the greatest season from all these players). I think there is a case to be made that peak-wise these players (removing Kovalev, man if he would just have cared enough!) could be ranked somewhere like this.
Kovalev, if you look at his stretch from 99-00 through 02-03, he's sixth in goals and fifth in assists. In the 00-01 season, he was Pittsburgh's best player in close to half of their games; given that Jagr was his teammate that is a significant fact. If he had managed to play at his peak/prime level a couple seasons longer, he might be considered better than Mogilny or Bure.

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01-08-2013, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Of the three, I rank Selanne the lowest because of this:

Mogilny had a slight edge on Bure in speed, and Bure edged out Selanne.

Bure had the acceleration and agility a step above Mogilny or Selanne, who were basically equal in that regard.



Kovalev, if you look at his stretch from 99-00 through 02-03, he's sixth in goals and fifth in assists. In the 00-01 season, he was Pittsburgh's best player in close to half of their games; given that Jagr was his teammate that is a significant fact. If he had managed to play at his peak/prime level a couple seasons longer, he might be considered better than Mogilny or Bure.
Well, it is more of a preference about Moginly/Selanne. Don't see any problem if you would take Moginly first. I think Selanne was a hair better.

I don't necessary agree with Kovalev better than Bure.

Bure was top-10 in PPG 4 times with 3rd, 7th, 7th, 8th. GPG 6 times with 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th.

Kovalev was top-10 in PPG twice with 4th and 6th. GPG once with 7th.

Bure has 1 1st team all-star and two 2nd. Kovalev has one 2nd. I think it is pretty telling that when Kovalev was competing against Selanne, Bure and Jagr he never was able to come out on top. It was always at least two of the three that took the better of him.

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01-08-2013, 02:30 AM
  #20
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part of the problem with the rankings #'s is the weight that each category is actually worth.

There is also some confusion (I like most of your numbers, btw, Eva) as to puck control vs stickhandling/dangling. Forsberg and Jagr, as someone stated, were clearly ahead in puck control, and really, i feel much of Fedorov's game was based off of this, too. The ability to shield the puck, take a hit, keep possession, as opposed to someone like Bure who could dangle through traffic at high speed, but did not possess the offensive zone like the aforementioned.

I would do my own numbers, but am too ignorant in too many categories. If I were to, I would likely dump Kovalev, Modano, and Mogilny - as I have no desire to see them weighed against the others... especially Kovalev - he stands out here like a sore thumb... there's a category that's missing, and should be weighted 2x as much as the other categories, "giving a ****",Kovalev, last.

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01-08-2013, 02:39 AM
  #21
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ok, to hell with endurance - they are all first liners. On top of that, there is a tendency to give someone who logs a lot of time an endurance nod. Untrue. Pace is more relevant than time in sports endurance. The difference between someone running a sub 2 minute 800meter and someone jogging 5k.

Skating really doesn't need ot be weighted, in my mind, as it fits into so many of the categories: puck possession, deking, defensive reliability (ability to get back), and yes endurance!

I would go with:

Shooting: wrist and slapper, snapper, quick release, ability to get open....

PLAYMAKING: passing accuracy, vision, puck possession

deking: ability to beat dmen and goalies on the rush, skating is heavily in this

Physical play, I would likely include intangibles like shotblocking, fighting, and even faceoffs here

Defensive Awareness: dilegence in getting back, stickchecking, and defensive vision, including pass interception.

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01-08-2013, 02:53 AM
  #22
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then, out of 10:

Shooting:

Sakic - 9
Jagr - 8
Lindros - 8
Bure - 8
Fedorov - 8
Forsberg - 6

Playmaking -

Forsberg - 10
Jagr - 10
Fedorov - 9
Sakic - 8
Lindros - 8
Bure - 6

Deking (out of 5 as it is less vital)

Bure - 5
Fedorov - 4
Forsberg - 4
Jagr - 4
Lindros - 3
Sakic - 3

Physical play -

Lindros - 10
Forsberg - 9
Fedorov - 7
Jagr - 6
Bure - 6
Sakic - 5

Defensive play -

Fedorov - 10
Sakic - 9
Forsberg - 8
Lindros - 7
Jagr - 4
Bure - 4

Totals out of 45:

Fedorov - 38
Forsberg - 37
Lindros - 36
Sakic - 34
Jagr - 32
Bure - 29


Jagr seems low. Oh well, grain of salt - I tried.

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01-08-2013, 08:44 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Checking Ability (Physical play)
1) Lindros
2) Forsberg
3) Fedorov
4) Jagr
5) Kovalev
6) Bure
7) Modano
8) Sakic
9) Selanne
10) Mogilny

Defensive performance
1) Fedorov
2) Sakic
3) Forsberg
4) Lindros
5) Modano
6) Bure
7) Selanne
8) Jagr
9) Kovalev
10) Mogilny
You`re right about Fedorov`s checking ability. Guy was a beast in his prime years. I remember him smashing big Hatcher from Dallas with a huge hit. The clip below is what Wings fans wanted from Feds all the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcPq5OMzVMo

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01-08-2013, 08:51 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
ok, to hell with endurance - they are all first liners. On top of that, there is a tendency to give someone who logs a lot of time an endurance nod. Untrue. Pace is more relevant than time in sports endurance. The difference between someone running a sub 2 minute 800meter and someone jogging 5k.
.
True. However, endurance is still a very important attribute for a player to have. I can tell you from experience that when someone gets tired on the ice they start making a lot of mistakes, be it mental or physical.

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01-08-2013, 09:41 AM
  #25
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True. However, endurance is still a very important attribute for a player to have. I can tell you from experience that when someone gets tired on the ice they start making a lot of mistakes, be it mental or physical.
I agree 100%. In so many sports, conditioning is probably the number 1 thing to have going for you. In something like rugby or MMA, someone can have better skills, and just be useless without the ability to go all game.

I just think it is a very hard thing to rate based on the eye test. We don't know if those mistakes are mistakes or fatigue. We don't know how much they are exerting each shift. Someone mentioned Bure's long shifts in Florida, and I think that's what made me want to get rid of the category. You can stay out there for endless minutes if you are mostly floating around, 45 seconds can have your legs rubberized and lungs on fire if you go Tazmanian Devil.

It's just hard to rate compared to shooting, passing, physical play is all, and I sort of wanted to wash the board of it, because all these guys, at least at one time, trained like demons. Actually, that's the other thing - conditioning in a player varies from week to week, dependent on injury, time of season... I think all of these guys, at one time, when healthy and hungry, would be 10/10 in endurance/conditioning.... it isn't really a skillset piece, it's a frame of mind, over a long enough duration of training, to achieve a standard.... one that is likely quite close to equal in all top athletes, genetically speaking.

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