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The Platinum Coin Question

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01-07-2013, 02:44 PM
  #1
Concordski
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The Platinum Coin Question

There is currently question as to whether or not, if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised, if the Treasury should take advantage of a loophole, which allows them to make stupid commemorative coins, to make a big-a** coin which would allow the fed more money as it would cover for shortfalls.

The argument against such a proposal is inflation along with being an absurd concept, but Paul Krugman argues otherwise:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/201...int-that-coin/

I can imagine that this proposal is making quite a few of you angry, and it will probably give Ron Paul an aneurysm. I'm fine with it if it gets put in the Smithsonian when it's retired.

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01-07-2013, 02:47 PM
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If only there were a solution this simple yet ingenious for every Republican attempt at obstructionism.

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01-07-2013, 03:10 PM
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Burke the Legend
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
If only there were a solution this simple yet ingenious for every Republican attempt at obstructionism.
Obstructionism? You mean the law that is the debt ceiling? Boy is that an annoying thing when a law, or constitution gets in the way of peoples' desire to run trillion $ deficits.

What's scary is all the liabilities the US govt is carrying which currently isn't considered part of the debt due to already existing loopholes, such as Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac.

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01-07-2013, 03:12 PM
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Obstructionism? You mean the law that is the debt ceiling? Boy is that an annoying thing when a law, or constitution gets in the way of peoples' desire to run trillion $ deficits.
Funny how the debt ceiling was never exploited for political gain until Obama became president, huh?

Once again Burke, the point of raising the debt ceiling is so that we can actually borrow the money to pay for all the things the Republicans put on the charge card while they were running the country.

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01-07-2013, 03:35 PM
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Burke the Legend
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The debt didn't double in 4 years under Bush. increasing from 8 tril to 16 tril in that time kind of gave the issue a bit more prominance, you think?

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01-07-2013, 03:48 PM
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Kevin Malone
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Funny how the debt ceiling was never exploited for political gain until Obama became president, huh?

Once again Burke, the point of raising the debt ceiling is so that we can actually borrow the money to pay for all the things the Republicans put on the charge card while they were running the country.
You obviously don't understand the difference between debt and deficits. The reason the US is hitting the debt ceiling is because perpetual trillion dollars deficits are outstripping the countries capacity to repay their debt.

To blame this solely on the Republicans is truly juvenile. However I shouldn't be surprised as you were the poster that continually spammed this board for months proclaiming Obama as the lowest spending President in a generation.

The reason the US has continually hit its debt ceiling in the past few years is because they have not passed a budget in 4 years. This is the kind of thing that only happens in third world countries and is absolutely astonishing that a western industrial superpower can pull this off.

The Republicans spent around a trillion on their wars which is similar to Obama's stimulus. However the main source of the deficit is SS and MC which are in perpetual deficit and the US gov't had been stealing past surpluses to fund other operations. Without entitlement reform the US will consistently be battling debt limits as they account for the vast majority of gov't outlays.

Quit the bipartisanship as both parties equally share the blame for the US's current financial status. Are you going to continue blaming the Republicans who only control the house 4 years from now???

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01-07-2013, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
The debt didn't double in 4 years under Bush. increasing from 8 tril to 16 tril in that time kind of gave the issue a bit more prominance, you think?
You talk about it like it's just a magical number that somehow increased, rather than considerning the factors behind it, hardly any of which were Obama's fault. (In addition to the fact that you're getting the numbers wrong, as the debt was nearly 11 trillion already when Obama took office.) Let's look at the facts here:

- the Republicans do not care about debt. They don't. If they cared about debt, they wouldn't have started two unfunded wars and pushed through an unfunded prescription drug program, as well as push through two massive unfunded tax cats. If they've all of a sudden started caring about the debt because the deficits are larger, then they're not just hypocrites, but also a-holes, because they're responsible for the lion's share of the current deficits.

- the Republicans don't care about the debt ceiling. Otherwise they wouldn't have voted to raise it numerous times under Reagan and the Bushes. The reason they're pretending to object now is because they know Obama won't let the country default, so they think they can squeeze concessions out of him by threatening to shoot the hostage.

This is purely political, so it would be fitting if Obama clowned them with the platinum coin trick.

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01-07-2013, 03:58 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by Kevin Malone View Post
You obviously don't understand the difference between debt and deficits. The reason the US is hitting the debt ceiling is because perpetual trillion dollars deficits are outstripping the countries capacity to repay their debt.

To blame this solely on the Republicans is truly juvenile. However I shouldn't be surprised as you were the poster that continually spammed this board for months proclaiming Obama as the lowest spending President in a generation.

The reason the US has continually hit its debt ceiling in the past few years is because they have not passed a budget in 4 years. This is the kind of thing that only happens in third world countries and is absolutely astonishing that a western industrial superpower can pull this off.

The Republicans spent around a trillion on their wars which is similar to Obama's stimulus. However the main source of the deficit is SS and MC which are in perpetual deficit and the US gov't had been stealing past surpluses to fund other operations. Without entitlement reform the US will consistently be battling debt limits as they account for the vast majority of gov't outlays.
Yes, I understand the difference between debt and deficits. As you should realize because we discuss this issue every time you come blundering in here pretending you know what you're talking about.

Oh yeah, the Republicans are really concerned about Medicare and Social Security costs. They're so concerned that they just ran a campaign accusing Obama of stealing money from Medicare to finance Obamacare.

This is political. The Republicans don't care about either the debt or the deficits.

Plus you're a moron because the debt ceiling has been increased numerous times under every president since Reagan.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneym...Debt-Limit.htm

Maybe you can take your bull-in-a-china-shop act somewhere else now, Kevin.


Quote:
Quit the bipartisanship as both parties equally share the blame for the US's current financial status. Are you going to continue blaming the Republicans who only control the house 4 years from now???
No, they certainly do not share equally in the blame. GWB inherited a budget surplus from Clinton, and then left Obama with a more than 1 trillion deficit and a massive economic crisis that was guaranteed to cause several more years of massive deficits.

I'll continue to blame Republicans for as long as their past decisions continue to affect current deficits. Which is the case right now, to a very significant degree.

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01-07-2013, 04:35 PM
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To make that coin is one of the most feeble ideas I've ever heard of. It will fix nothing.

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01-07-2013, 04:36 PM
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Obama has been around 4 years now and the debt has gone up from 11 to 16 trillion and none of it is Obama's fault???

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01-07-2013, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
To make that coin is one of the most feeble ideas I've ever heard of. It will fix nothing.
It will, it's like the government creating a Trillion Dollar Bill and giving it to itself with little risk of inflation.

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01-07-2013, 05:11 PM
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Raising the debt ceiling doesn't mean new spending, it only allows us to pay debts that have already been incurred. Obama isn't having a debt ceiling negotiation. The only thing that would happen if we don't raise it would be that it would tank our economy and probably much of the developed world with it. No one wants that. The republicans aren't doing Obama a favor by raising it. If it doesn't get raised we default and we lose our credit rating which again hurts everyone. Teabaggers, the debt ceiling isn't a new thing, and you want to know why you've never heard of it before? Because no one in congress used to be dumb enough to play a partisan political game of chicken with it before because it's a serious ****ing important thing.

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01-07-2013, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DanielBryanRoleModel View Post
It will, it's like the government creating a Trillion Dollar Bill and giving it to itself with little risk of inflation.
What are foreign investors supposed to make of a country that is so lost economically and how to handle their debt that they resort to such an absurd idea like this?

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01-07-2013, 05:45 PM
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Concordski
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Originally Posted by MM425 View Post
What are foreign investors supposed to make of a country that is so lost economically and how to handle their debt that they resort to such an absurd idea like this?
They will view it as a country which is not willing to default despite the clown show in the House of Representatives.

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01-07-2013, 05:52 PM
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Kevin Malone
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Raising the debt ceiling doesn't mean new spending, it only allows us to pay debts that have already been incurred. Obama isn't having a debt ceiling negotiation. The only thing that would happen if we don't raise it would be that it would tank our economy and probably much of the developed world with it. No one wants that. The republicans aren't doing Obama a favor by raising it. If it doesn't get raised we default and we lose our credit rating which again hurts everyone. Teabaggers, the debt ceiling isn't a new thing, and you want to know why you've never heard of it before? Because no one in congress used to be dumb enough to play a partisan political game of chicken with it before because it's a serious ****ing important thing.
This is factually false. Raising the debt ceiling is 100% about continuing with deficit spending and not about previous debt. Raising the debt ceiling allows the US government to continue with deficit spending and to add to the previous debt. If the US had a balanced budget none of these debt ceiling discussions would be taking place.

By continually raising the debt ceiling congress and the president are actually doing more long term damage than any short term economic benefits offer. The problem with these debt ceiling negotiations is that the limit is simply raised without addressing current budgetary shortfalls. Kicking the can down the road to let future generations to try and clean up the mess.


Last edited by Kevin Malone: 01-07-2013 at 06:02 PM.
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01-07-2013, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DanielBryanRoleModel View Post
They will view it as a country which is not willing to default despite the clown show in the House of Representatives.
Interesting... do you really believe that?

I've only been reading seriously about economics in the past year or so, so my knowledge is limited but for me at least, the more I read Paul Krugman the more I think the dude is crazy.

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01-07-2013, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DanielBryanRoleModel View Post
They will view it as a country which is not willing to default despite the clown show in the House of Representatives.
You do realize that the minute a central bank starts buying treasury bills(with printed money) because no external source will is an unofficial default...

Also please explain how 1/3 of the US government(who've been there for 2 years) are to blame for the US's dire economic status.

Everyone here placing blame solely on one party are truly blind. Both parties are equally to blame and to believe that one corrupted party is any better than the other is truly mystifying.

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01-07-2013, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevin Malone View Post
You do realize that the minute a central bank starts buying treasury bills(with printed money) because no external source will is an unofficial default...

Also please explain how 1/3 of the US government(who've been there for 2 years) are to blame for the US's dire economic status.

Everyone here placing blame solely on one party are truly blind. Both parties are equally to blame and to believe that one corrupted party is any better than the other is truly mystifying.
Buying 'em is easy. It's selling part that may present a problem or two.

Ever watch a herd of elephants try to squeeze through a key hole at the same time?

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01-07-2013, 06:26 PM
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Kevin Malone
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Yes, I understand the difference between debt and deficits. As you should realize because we discuss this issue every time you come blundering in here pretending you know what you're talking about.

Oh yeah, the Republicans are really concerned about Medicare and Social Security costs. They're so concerned that they just ran a campaign accusing Obama of stealing money from Medicare to finance Obamacare.

This is political. The Republicans don't care about either the debt or the deficits.

Plus you're a moron because the debt ceiling has been increased numerous times under every president since Reagan.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneym...Debt-Limit.htm

Maybe you can take your bull-in-a-china-shop act somewhere else now, Kevin.




No, they certainly do not share equally in the blame. GWB inherited a budget surplus from Clinton, and then left Obama with a more than 1 trillion deficit and a massive economic crisis that was guaranteed to cause several more years of massive deficits.

I'll continue to blame Republicans for as long as their past decisions continue to affect current deficits. Which is the case right now, to a very significant degree.
First of all I am a Libertarian and do not believe in either party as they are equally at fault.

Finally the trillion dollars deficit that Obama inherited from Bush was due to TARP. TARP was a one time expenditure to save the financial sector and government spending the following year was supposed to return to pre TARP levels. Once Obama got in to power he kept spending at TARP levels first by deploying his stimulus package and keeping spending similar years since.

This can not be blamed on Bush as it was Obama's decision to keep spending at such a high rate when the government did not have the revenue to support it. Those deficits are his and he has no one to blame but himself.

Bush decided to fight two wars without having the funds appropriated. Bush wears the debt caused by those decisions. Before TARP the Fed govt was spending around 2.5t per year. The US spent 3.6t last year, a roughly 40% increase in 4 years. If you can't understand what is wrong with that then you are beyond help.


Your one sided view of nothing but praise for Obama and disdain for Bush is severely childish. Both have proved to be incredibly incompetent presidents with little regard for the American public. They both play a substantial role in America's decline.

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01-07-2013, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MM425 View Post
Interesting... do you really believe that?

I've only been reading seriously about economics in the past year or so, so my knowledge is limited but for me at least, the more I read Paul Krugman the more I think the dude is crazy.
He could very easily say the same about you. And as for these platinum coins, they can't really be spent on anything, no business even accepts the ones that they sell to tourists, it's too much of a hassle. Therefore, I'm skeptical as to whether it can be considered real money.


Last edited by Concordski: 01-07-2013 at 06:43 PM.
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01-07-2013, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
Obama has been around 4 years now and the debt has gone up from 11 to 16 trillion and none of it is Obama's fault???
Very little of it is Obama's fault. The deficit was already over a trillion bucks before he even became established in office and had an opportunity to do anything about it. Pretty much the first thing his advisors told him is that he was going to be facing deficits in excess of 1 trillion for the next several years. He was screwed right from the beginning - even before the party that left the mess in his lap began blaming him for it.



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Originally Posted by Kevin Malone View Post
First of all I am a Libertarian and do not believe in either party as they are equally at fault.
I don't care if you're a member of the Rent Is Too Damn High Party. You're wrong about this. I'm sick of the "both parties are equally to blame" crap. It's the lazy man's explanation, for people who don't want to look at the individual causes of the deficits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Malone View Post
Finally the trillion dollars deficit that Obama inherited from Bush was due to TARP. TARP was a one time expenditure to save the financial sector and government spending the following year was supposed to return to pre TARP levels. Once Obama got in to power he kept spending at TARP levels first by deploying his stimulus package and keeping spending similar years since.
No, it's not due to TARP. It's due to the fact that the economy collapsed in the final quarter of 2008 and 800,000 people a month were losing their jobs. You bring up this TARP crap every single time, and you're wrong.

The stimulus argument is ridiculous. No stimulus = continued massive job losses, i.e. even lower tax revenues and even higher government spending on unemployment benefits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Malone
This can not be blamed on Bush as it was Obama's decision to keep spending at such a high rate when the government did not have the revenue to support it. Those deficits are his and he has no one to blame but himself.
TARP was much smaller than you realize, and much of it has been paid back, so stop with the TARP nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Malone
Bush decided to fight two wars without having the funds appropriated. Bush wears the debt caused by those decisions. Before TARP the Fed govt was spending around 2.5t per year. The US spent 3.6t last year, a roughly 40% increase in 4 years. If you can't understand what is wrong with that then you are beyond help.
Once again, you forgot the part where the economy completely collapsed. That is the major reason why Obama's deficits are much larger than most of Bush's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Malone
Your one sided view of nothing but praise for Obama and disdain for Bush is severely childish. Both have proved to be incredibly incompetent presidents with little regard for the American public. They both play a substantial role in America's decline.
I criticize Obama all the time. I think he's a weak leader who is owned by Wall Street and gets worked by the Republicans every time he tries to negotiate with them. You've never seen me praise Obama, because I almost never do it. I'm more than willing to blame him for things that are his fault. The huge deficits are not one of those things.


Last edited by Ugmo: 01-07-2013 at 10:44 PM. Reason: Erroniously attributed Kevin Malone's nonsense to Burke the Legend. Sorry Burke
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01-07-2013, 07:29 PM
  #22
Kel Varnsen
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Originally Posted by Kevin Malone View Post
This is factually false. Raising the debt ceiling is 100% about continuing with deficit spending and not about previous debt. Raising the debt ceiling allows the US government to continue with deficit spending and to add to the previous debt. If the US had a balanced budget none of these debt ceiling discussions would be taking place.

By continually raising the debt ceiling congress and the president are actually doing more long term damage than any short term economic benefits offer. The problem with these debt ceiling negotiations is that the limit is simply raised without addressing current budgetary shortfalls. Kicking the can down the road to let future generations to try and clean up the mess.
No, reaching the debt ceiling prevents making payments on debts already incurred. The budget is where you can make cuts to future spending. Remember how the credit rating was downgraded last time? That's because the rating agency thought the debate showed that the US would possibly default on it's obligations in the future making it a riskier investment.

It's a lack of understanding from people like you that allow this garbage to happen. Last time it was raised was the only time we actually made a big fuss and played chicken with raising it. It was raised without problem and without partisan hostage taking every other time including a bunch of times under W.

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01-07-2013, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
No, reaching the debt ceiling prevents making payments on debts already incurred. The budget is where you can make cuts to future spending. Remember how the credit rating was downgraded last time? That's because the rating agency thought the debate showed that the US would possibly default on it's obligations in the future making it a riskier investment.
And why do people or businesses or sovereign states default? Because their ability to pay is outstripped by the size of the debt and their ability to pay. The debate is simply a manifestation of this basic economic fact.

You just made the case why the debt ceiling shouldn't be raised.

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01-07-2013, 08:19 PM
  #24
Kel Varnsen
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
And why do people or businesses or sovereign states default? Because their ability to pay is outstripped by the size of the debt and their ability to pay. The debate is simply a manifestation of this basic economic fact.

You just made the case why the debt ceiling shouldn't be raised.
No, states default because they either 1) can't borrow enough money to meet their obligations. We can right now easy. or 2) they refuse to raise the debt ceiling, thereby legally preventing them making good on their obligations.


Only a ****ing moron would choose default. It'd be a metaphorical self inflicted gunshot wound to the head of our economy, in other words economic suicide. It would cause a domestic depression at best and a global depression at worst. It would be us telling creditors everywhere, hey we can pay you but we're choosing not to because teabaggers, that's why!

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01-07-2013, 09:49 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by DanielBryanRoleModel View Post
It will, it's like the government creating a Trillion Dollar Bill and giving it to itself with little risk of inflation.
They could just pull out a bogey and claim it's worth a trillion.
It's a dumb way to handle economics.

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