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With lockout now over, it's time for Gary Bettman to step down

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Old
01-08-2013, 07:28 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
I actually gained respect for Bettman through these negotiations. The players have actually had it pretty good despite what they think. And it's been catching up to them which seems to be a source of resentment thus the Fehr hiring. Revenue has increased. There have been some nice TV packages. The owners, overall, seem content. At some point I see Bettman stepping down but not for a few years.

Didn't get much out of the article that already hasn't been said. Bettman seems to relish his role as a lightning rod. I'm not sure how many of those types are out there and can grow your business too.

Is the guy flawless.....well none of us are. IDK there is a sense of entitlement that's developed on the union side. I'm all for unions when it comes to fighting for things like working conditions and a fair pay scale relative to other industry but I then have a problem with them when I sense entitlement is intervening.
Hamrlik? Is this you?

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01-08-2013, 08:02 PM
  #102
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Whiners and b****ers will just find someone else to blame for everything that they don't like when Bettman retires. Let's face these people just to take out their anger on someone. They'll blame the new commissioner for not moving expansion teams or creating teams in their areas, blame the new commissioner when the players refuse to negotiate a new CBA before the old one ends. If the commissioner is a likable chub they'll just blame the owners or Daly or Shannahan or the guy that cleans the NHL's office windows.

There is whole lot of angst of there that has to directed at someone.

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01-08-2013, 08:30 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I'm sorry, I can't even comprehend how this even resembles anything other than an agenda against the players (aside from your user title, which by definition is incorrect).

You gained respect for a guy who didn't even respect the collective bargaining process? Continuously tried to circumvent the union head? Doing so in attempts to crush them (as it turned out, Bettman's antics further unified them)? Having owners threaten the players by walking away if Fehr even so much as entered the room? Never taking any of the PA's proposals for serious discussion? Crying poor because because a handful of teams don't make money in spite of a CBA Bettman shoved down their throats in 2005? Got his side backed into a corner - when he's the one who decides whether or not the season gets cancelled?

What?
Well I guess if that's your perception then so be it. I'm getting the distinct impression you were pro player as much as I was pro owner through the process. And I suppose we could go around in circles but I've seen quite enough of that the last few days, or weeks or I mean months. So I'm hearing the players and Fehr are angels? What?

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01-08-2013, 08:32 PM
  #104
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Hamrlik? Is this you?
No, Hainsey. Good luck with your next contract.

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01-08-2013, 08:43 PM
  #105
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In my opinion, Mr. Bettman is doing a fine job.

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01-08-2013, 10:32 PM
  #106
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LOL Seriously? Yes I was disappointed that the NHL didn't even attempt to use that offer as a place to negotiate from. But on the same hand, what took Fehr that long to even put that sort of linked offer forward? Or even a phased in split (55%, 53, 51, 50, etc)?
The players were going from 57% to 50%. You can't just expect them to accept that cut without some pushback. But the point is that Bettman couldn't take that win. Because at that point, he did win. But he didn't meet his goal of demolishing the union, so we got almost two more months of lockout.

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01-08-2013, 11:33 PM
  #107
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No, Hainsey. Good luck with your next contract.
I have no idea what you are talking about.

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01-09-2013, 12:53 AM
  #108
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The players were going from 57% to 50%. You can't just expect them to accept that cut without some pushback. But the point is that Bettman couldn't take that win. Because at that point, he did win. But he didn't meet his goal of demolishing the union, so we got almost two more months of lockout.
And that 7% alone was NOT enough. They had to close the contract loopholes - which they did, and paid dearly for it. Walkaway arbitration at 3.5m? And no buyouts under 2.5m (or whatever it is)? You think they're happy about that ****?

No they didn't even come close to getting everything they wanted. But they got the important stuff. If Bettman was solely out to demolish the union, he would have held out for 5 & 7 years, instead of going to 7 & 8.

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01-09-2013, 02:03 AM
  #109
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I love these threads where people ***** at Bettman for literally doing his job.

It's his job to take the heat for the owners and the next commish will have the same job.

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01-09-2013, 02:25 AM
  #110
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Whats the point of stepping down now? He has 8 to 10 years of downtime. Fehr isn't going to be around next time, and Fehr was the biggest reason the owners were unable to agree to a deal earlier. Fehr was never going to agree to anything until the last minute.

Hopefully in ten years all of the markets are strong, television viewership goes up, and everyone is happy.

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01-09-2013, 03:07 AM
  #111
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I have no idea what you are talking about.
I thought it was a pretty funny comeback.

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01-09-2013, 03:09 AM
  #112
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Hyperbole much?

Jim Kelly is the Leonard Peltier of the BOH
Huh? Who's Jim Kelly? Who's Leonard Peltier? BOH as in business of hockey?

What the hell are you talking about??

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01-09-2013, 07:14 AM
  #113
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I like how people wholeheartedly admit that Bettman does the bidding of the owners that he works for but blame him for it anyway. Fact is that Bettman doesn't do anything with these negotiations that the owners don't want him to do. It also shows how much the players are cowards when they point the finger at Bettman but don't have the guts to point the finger at who he works for...their owners.

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01-09-2013, 08:05 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Well I guess if that's your perception then so be it. I'm getting the distinct impression you were pro player as much as I was pro owner through the process. And I suppose we could go around in circles but I've seen quite enough of that the last few days, or weeks or I mean months. So I'm hearing the players and Fehr are angels? What?
Of course I was pro-player -- they didn't cause the lockout. They didn't spend money like morons, and they didn't lock themselves out. The owners cried poor on a CBA they wrote and told the players to sign or else they were going to cancel another season.

You don't see me going around lauding Fehr as this glorious diety that was working in the best interests of the game. First off, that's not his job. Second off, he never refused to negotiate. Fehr was only here because the players needed someone with a pair of balls who won't crack under pressure. Bettman tried to oust him because he had no respect for the process. How does a commissioner get himself backed against his own wall and forced to cave on almost every outstanding issue? They even got the league to pitch in extra on pensions.

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01-09-2013, 08:27 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Of course I was pro-player -- they didn't cause the lockout. They didn't spend money like morons, and they didn't lock themselves out. The owners cried poor on a CBA they wrote and told the players to sign or else they were going to cancel another season.

You don't see me going around lauding Fehr as this glorious diety that was working in the best interests of the game. First off, that's not his job. Second off, he never refused to negotiate. Fehr was only here because the players needed someone with a pair of balls who won't crack under pressure. Bettman tried to oust him because he had no respect for the process. How does a commissioner get himself backed against his own wall and forced to cave on almost every outstanding issue? They even got the league to pitch in extra on pensions.
he never refused to negotiate until long about December. Then he started.

Sorry......but the players and their Tweets and comments - some of it was embarrassing and they claim to be part of the product. That's their stance, right?

I understand Fehr was just doing what he was hired to do. I have no problem with that. But a beef I have with the union is whether or not ALL constituents bought in to the idea of missing half a season. Some players claim Fehr was an excellent communicator while other comments suggested information was somewhat filtered. And even other comments suggested players didn't have clue what they were talking about (Brian Gionta).

Operating a business is never without risk or making mistakes. If it would be free of those things I guess there would be more doing it - successfully. To spend money like a "moron" - well I guess sometimes that money is demanded.

And does anyone know what the results were on the second DOI vote?

I mean yes..........it's just too bad that the perfect CBA wasn't written years and years ago. And it's too bad that economic factors just don't stay the same all of the time.

And all I really said about Bettman was that I gained respect for him (and you do know how much I had before - about zero). Hell I even suggested he isn't without flaws. IDK.......you seemingly jumped all over me for other comments made in the thread.

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01-09-2013, 08:41 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
he never refused to negotiate until long about December. Then he started.

Sorry......but the players and their Tweets and comments - some of it was embarrassing and they claim to be part of the product. That's their stance, right?

I understand Fehr was just doing what he was hired to do. I have no problem with that. But a beef I have with the union is whether or not ALL constituents bought in to the idea of missing half a season. Some players claim Fehr was an excellent communicator while other comments suggested information was somewhat filtered. And even other comments suggested players didn't have clue what they were talking about (Brian Gionta).

Operating a business is never without risk or making mistakes. If it would be free of those things I guess there would be more doing it - successfully. To spend money like a "moron" - well I guess sometimes that money is demanded.

And does anyone know what the results were on the second DOI vote?

I mean yes..........it's just too bad that the perfect CBA wasn't written years and years ago. And it's too bad that economic factors just don't stay the same all of the time.

And all I really said about Bettman was that I gained respect for him (and you do know how much I had before - about zero). Hell I even suggested he isn't without flaws. IDK.......you seemingly jumped all over me for other comments made in the thread.
Players tweeting about it -- why anyone ever cared about that was pointless. They tried to give back to the league things they said they weren't doing -- trying to talk to the fans and win over PR.

For months, the PA would give them a proposal and barely read it before taking a crap all over it. The fact that it took less than an hour to throw out a proposal in December (as a result of talks) that wasn't all that far off of what we had now was ridiculous.

My issue was how anyone with an ounce of respect for this game could possibly gain respect for him after what we went through given what we went through 8 years ago. It wasn't the perfect CBA for the owners -- but it should've been. They wrote it and had the players saying uncle.

By the way -- those December talks ended with the PA proposal. And it ended with the owners making threats to the players and refusing to even speak with Fehr. It's well documented that Murray Bannerman told the players not to bring him in the room of everything was off. They were refusing to negotiate with the person they knew they had to make the deal with if they wanted a season. That only galvanized the players and pushed them to hang the disclaimer over their head. If it got to that point, the owners likely would have imploded, since Bettman would have had to put his money where his mouth was by Friday

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01-09-2013, 09:10 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...step-down.html

Personally I can't see Bettman wanting to step down or the owners wanting to fire him in the near future.
I can sort of see The BettMan stepping down, perhaps he and Donny Fair, will form a sports management agency together and become super agents

expect a lot of hold-outs but at least for the right reasons

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01-09-2013, 09:25 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Of course I was pro-player -- they didn't cause the lockout. They didn't spend money like morons, and they didn't lock themselves out. The owners cried poor on a CBA they wrote and told the players to sign or else they were going to cancel another season.

You don't see me going around lauding Fehr as this glorious diety that was working in the best interests of the game. First off, that's not his job. Second off, he never refused to negotiate. Fehr was only here because the players needed someone with a pair of balls who won't crack under pressure. Bettman tried to oust him because he had no respect for the process. How does a commissioner get himself backed against his own wall and forced to cave on almost every outstanding issue? They even got the league to pitch in extra on pensions.
off topic here but to address this one final time

The league said we'd like to sit down and talk and had some preliminary discussions with the players....which both sides said were constructive

The League asked the players what they had in mind, the players replied by saying "we're thinking about it" several times

the players then asked to negotiate w/o a CBA and they would just go on with business as usual until a deal was struck. Both the NHL and MLB had been burned by that kind of approach in the past, and of course said no way no how, give us a proposal. the players said they'd think about it.

The league then said if we do not have a deal by the end date which is Sept 15th then we will be forced to lock you out. the players said ho-hum we will think about it.

the players at this point finally said why don't you make us an offer and the league said fine how about we just trade sides, we'll take 57% and give you 43% just like we're getting 43% and your getting 57%, now what would you like to do?

the players said how about we just leave things as they are for the next 4 years and then we'll revist all this at that time

Sept 15th came and the players were locked out, no serious proposals from the players and then they act like they're being victimised

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01-09-2013, 09:42 AM
  #119
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Of course I was pro-player -- they didn't cause the lockout. They didn't spend money like morons, and they didn't lock themselves out. The owners cried poor on a CBA they wrote and told the players to sign or else they were going to cancel another season.

You don't see me going around lauding Fehr as this glorious diety that was working in the best interests of the game. First off, that's not his job. Second off, he never refused to negotiate. Fehr was only here because the players needed someone with a pair of balls who won't crack under pressure. Bettman tried to oust him because he had no respect for the process. How does a commissioner get himself backed against his own wall and forced to cave on almost every outstanding issue? They even got the league to pitch in extra on pensions.
You keep making these claims all the time and refuse to back them up with evidence.

Style like that only makes you look like some of those pro-PA journos who never even tried to see the bigger picture.

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01-09-2013, 10:05 AM
  #120
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Players tweeting about it -- why anyone ever cared about that was pointless. They tried to give back to the league things they said they weren't doing -- trying to talk to the fans and win over PR.

For months, the PA would give them a proposal and barely read it before taking a crap all over it. The fact that it took less than an hour to throw out a proposal in December (as a result of talks) that wasn't all that far off of what we had now was ridiculous.

My issue was how anyone with an ounce of respect for this game could possibly gain respect for him after what we went through given what we went through 8 years ago. It wasn't the perfect CBA for the owners -- but it should've been. They wrote it and had the players saying uncle.

By the way -- those December talks ended with the PA proposal. And it ended with the owners making threats to the players and refusing to even speak with Fehr. It's well documented that Murray Bannerman told the players not to bring him in the room of everything was off. They were refusing to negotiate with the person they knew they had to make the deal with if they wanted a season. That only galvanized the players and pushed them to hang the disclaimer over their head. If it got to that point, the owners likely would have imploded, since Bettman would have had to put his money where his mouth was by Friday
Well someone cared because after those players were named in a lawsuit a lot of the idiocy was curtailed.

Why didn't Fehr want to negotiate earlier - like last January?

The meeting in December was owner - player. There was nothing wrong with Fehr being there and negotiating outside the room. The players broke the premise. And now which is it? The format Bettman proposed actually made progress but it's the players who are heroic for cherry picking a proposal? Gotchya!

Disclaimer of interest was on Fehr's and the players' mind long before the owner - player meeting.

And Fehr messed with the fans' emotions that December night and frankly, his constituents. He separated make whole and CBA length when clearly the NHL needed those things attached. And where are we today with those two things? And that night the new flavor of the month for the NHLPA was pension.

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01-09-2013, 10:43 AM
  #121
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Why didn't Fehr want to negotiate earlier - like last January?.
While Im' pro-player, I believe your question/statement is one that should be asked, was asked, no responsible nor candid answer ever forthcoming. Fehr's reply usually along the lines of "Im still getting up to speed on the existing CBA; polling the membership; not ready just yet". There are two ways to interpret & look at that;

1) He was being honest.... which is simply not plausible IMHO or;

2) He was up to speed, and with his experience getting up to speed would have been a short learning curve. That he had in fact studied the issues at hand and already formed both an opinion and a strategy. Implausible to believe he contemporaneously since the 1980's hadnt been completely conversant with all of the leagues CBA's. He's clearly a passionate workaholic who would devour any all inf stemming from the NFL, NBA & NHL (MLB of course which is a given along with labour issues & negotiations in the broader private & public sectors).

He simply had to have known that Gary Bettman wasnt bluffing when last spring he telegraphed his intentions to execute the leagues option with a lockout (combined with the leagues history in pulling that trigger), and I'm certain he was well aware that that eventuality would occur when he accepted the position with the NHLPA, and decided then, very early on, that that card would indeed be played and face up. His procrastinations throughout the 2011-12 season, to engage Gary Bettman in serious discussion were I believe all part of a Machiavellian strategy that guaranteed what we witnessed over the past 6 months. His strategy was/is flawed, and that it all could have been avoided had reasonable efforts been made far earlier. The league too has blood on its hands, so as far as Im concerned, both sides are equally responsible to varying degree's, Im not about to cut Fehr any slack, am pro-PA, not so much pro-PA Director.


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01-09-2013, 10:49 AM
  #122
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The players were going from 57% to 50%. You can't just expect them to accept that cut without some pushback. But the point is that Bettman couldn't take that win. Because at that point, he did win. But he didn't meet his goal of demolishing the union, so we got almost two more months of lockout.
When the players have been overpaid for going on 20 years, yes you can.

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01-09-2013, 11:09 AM
  #123
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I love these threads where people ***** at Bettman for literally doing his job.

It's his job to take the heat for the owners and the next commish will have the same job.
Commissioner is essentially another term for Chief Executive Officer. While it is certainly a stretch to portray him as an absolute dictator, it is just as much of a stretch to portray him as a figurehead. Bettman has a significant power base in both his job title and among owners who owe their position of being where they are to him.

Much of the league's failures over the past two decades lies squarely at Gary Bettman's feet and that includes these work stoppages. As such, this thread is perfectly relevant and much of the criticism directed towards Bettman is justified.

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When the players have been overpaid for going on 20 years, yes you can.
The market dictates value. If the players were truly overpaid, why was the league so apprehensive towards decertification?

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01-09-2013, 11:10 AM
  #124
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I seem to recall Mr. Bettman attempting to commence negotiations like a year before the agreement expired.

It was Fehr who said, no thanks... Let's not negotiate until the 11th hour because I feel like I can squeeze more cash out of you then. I blame Fehr.

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01-09-2013, 11:17 AM
  #125
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Much of the league's failures over the past two decades lies squarely at Gary Bettman's feet and that includes these work stoppages. As such, this thread is perfectly relevant and much of the criticism directed towards Bettman is justified.
Therein lies the problem, most of this board doesn't have any clue about economics/finances, thus what they see as a failure doesn't make it one in the eyes of owners.

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The market dictates value. If the players were truly overpaid, why was the league so apprehensive towards decertification?
League wanted court to rule that the DOI was nothing but a negotiating tactic. And if players were NOT truly overpaid, why didn't they file an actual decertification?

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