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Old
01-08-2013, 06:00 PM
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
Homerism is defined as using fact to defend an opinion? I told you that I'd take Plekanec over Couturier because Plekanec has peaked at 70 points in a season and excelled defensively. Couturier's potential is up around 70-80 points/season (doubt he'll reach that year in, year out) while excelling defensively. How exactly is Couturier more valuable? He's managed what? 28 points playing with poor linemates on a VERY offensive team. Plekanec just got 52 points on an awful offensive team with poor linemates. Come one, just because Couturier has a ceiling a bit above what Plekanec has done, does NOT mean he'll even come close. Plekanec nearly doubled Cout's production, with both playing a shutdown role. Prove to me that Couturier is a better player NOW than Plekanec and I'll take this back.

Everything you've said is ENTIRELY subjective; rather ironic considering you just trying to call me out for homerism. Homerism is basing opinions based on beliefs, rather than fact. Has Couturier outdone Plekanec? Nope? Oh hmm.... I'll take Plekanec.


Do not misunderstand, I think Couturier will have a great career and I wish no ill on the guy. It's the Flyers fans who HORRIBLY overrate Couturier that I have a problem with. Bloody hypocrisy.
no one is claiming that couturier is better than plekanec right now. but thats not the point. not at all. we're speaking in terms of value ON THE MARKET. of potential. how about we compare plekanec rookie season to couturiers rookie season? that would be a better comparison of what the actual discussion is about because it doesn't seem like you are understanding (at least my own) point of view.

Tomas Plekanec: 2005-2006: 23 years old. 67GP 9G 20A 29P +4
Playoffs: 6GP 0G 4P

Sean Couturier: 2011-2012: 19 years old. 77GP 13G 14A 27P +18
Playoffs: 11GP 3G 1A 4P


Last edited by orange is better: 01-08-2013 at 06:06 PM.
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Old
01-08-2013, 06:03 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
i just disagree. not going to flame. trying to see it from your point of view, but i do not understand. you're claiming that couturier has become overrated after 1 season because people are claiming that if he had been given better wingers his numbers would have been better, and you take issue with that. you justify it by claiming that pleks is in the same situation for years... do you not see the double standard? pleks is 30... couturier is only 20 years old. he's played in the league 1 year on the 3rd and 4th lines with no power play time. surely you can see the potential of a 20 year old who went 8th overall, and was projected to go 1st overall for a long time before his season was marred by illness. i just don't know how you can so easily discredit couturier and label him overrated because fans are excited about his potential, which is obviously great. if you really cannot admit that his potential is as a better player than plekanec then i really don't know what to say.
Oh believe me, he's got potential to be better than Plekanec. Potential is the key word. It does not mean he's worth more than Plekanec, nor does it mean he's better. Nathan MacKinnon has POTENTIAL to be better than Plekanec, but does that mean he's better right now, or even more valuable? Heck no. That's my point.

The reason I think he's overrated is the fact that people are even considering Couturier - Subban to be fair value. It's just simply not. It would take Couturier + Simmonds to grab my attention, no less. Subban is that important to our now and future. I think he's overrated because people seem to consider him some phenomenal generational talent who will own the league for the next decade. Not likely with Crosby, Malkin, Tavares, Stamkos, Ovy, RNH, Hall, Eberle, Seguin............................................ .... etc, etc,etc are still in the league. In my opinion, he'll be equivalent to Kesler at his peak.

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01-08-2013, 06:04 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
no one is claiming that couturier is better than plekanec right now. but thats not the point. not at all. we're speaking in terms of value ON THE MARKET. of potential. how about we compare plekanec rookie season to couturiers rookie season? that would be a better comparison of what the actual discussion is about because it doesn't seem like you are understanding (at least my own) point of view.
People have claimed that he's FAR better defensively and blame the lack of production on the fact that he played with poor linemates. On the market, value is subjective. Value to me, is from the Habs perspective. Couturier is not particularly valuable to Montreal, given the price that it would take to acquire such a piece.

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01-08-2013, 06:08 PM
  #129
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I liked the guys that ignored Drydenwasthebest and just picked their spots and went for the easier posts to dismiss while ignoring someone who actually refuted their original arguments with logic and class.

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Old
01-08-2013, 06:11 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
1. It was a hyperbole; it was added for dramatic effect. Subban is worth significantly more to me, and the Habs. Perhaps that's not the case with Philly. I can respect that.

2. In the near future meaning 2-3 years. Unless Couturier develops in leaps and bounds, I don't think Plekanec is anywhere near his deathbed. He'll still be producing fine for 2-3 years, right as Couturier should overtake him in terms of production.
Likewise, Couturier is worth more to Flyers fans and the Flyers. He'll be expected to match up against Crosby or Malkin for the next decade, and he'll have to excel if they have any hopes of winning division titles and playoff matchup against them. Subban is a fantastic player, and a sure-fire number one defenseman, but Couturier will more than likely be the second most important player on the team after Giroux for the foreseeable future.

Where did this consensus come from that Couturier will only top out at a 50-60 point number two center? He was a top ten pick that only fell at the draft because he battled through Mono for most of his draft eligible season. He had the highest PPG rate of any of the drafted players from 2011. If he meets his potential, he be a considerably better player than Tomas Plekanec. His potential is a hybrid or Eric and Jordan Staal.

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01-08-2013, 06:12 PM
  #131
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Flyers get wrecked in this one. I think a Subban for Voracek base could be interesting though.
what? noooooooo come on man...

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01-08-2013, 07:43 PM
  #132
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Interesting discussion folks ~ like the friendly banter! I proposed this as a step in the right direction for a "rebuilding HABS" organization and a FLYER "Contending" organzation - it comes at a cost that some may agree/not agree with - but I think with the discussion people can agree it is close to "value" for each TEAM. It makes sense and doesn't all at the same time!. Appreciate the comments and civil discussion ~ well done!

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01-08-2013, 08:04 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Likewise, Couturier is worth more to Flyers fans and the Flyers. He'll be expected to match up against Crosby or Malkin for the next decade, and he'll have to excel if they have any hopes of winning division titles and playoff matchup against them. Subban is a fantastic player, and a sure-fire number one defenseman, but Couturier will more than likely be the second most important player on the team after Giroux for the foreseeable future.

Where did this consensus come from that Couturier will only top out at a 50-60 point number two center? He was a top ten pick that only fell at the draft because he battled through Mono for most of his draft eligible season. He had the highest PPG rate of any of the drafted players from 2011. If he meets his potential, he be a considerably better player than Tomas Plekanec. His potential is a hybrid or Eric and Jordan Staal.
I said 70-80 ppg and still think that's his ceiling. Never been overly impressed for all the hype he gets. Still VERY valuable player, like Kesler value.

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01-08-2013, 08:07 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
no one is claiming that couturier is better than plekanec right now. but thats not the point. not at all. we're speaking in terms of value ON THE MARKET. of potential. how about we compare plekanec rookie season to couturiers rookie season? that would be a better comparison of what the actual discussion is about because it doesn't seem like you are understanding (at least my own) point of view.

Tomas Plekanec: 2005-2006: 23 years old. 67GP 9G 20A 29P +4
Playoffs: 6GP 0G 4P

Sean Couturier: 2011-2012: 19 years old. 77GP 13G 14A 27P +18
Playoffs: 11GP 3G 1A 4P
OK...? Fairly equal. Pleks was older, but had more points in 10 less games. Both were plus players, the numbers are irrelevant however, because they're more team related. So take both of the with a grain of salt. Playoffs again, Pleks did the same in half the time...

So you think he has Plekanec potential... or what?

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01-08-2013, 08:29 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
Oh believe me, he's got potential to be better than Plekanec. Potential is the key word. It does not mean he's worth more than Plekanec, nor does it mean he's better. Nathan MacKinnon has POTENTIAL to be better than Plekanec, but does that mean he's better right now, or even more valuable? Heck no. That's my point.

The reason I think he's overrated is the fact that people are even considering Couturier - Subban to be fair value. It's just simply not. It would take Couturier + Simmonds to grab my attention, no less. Subban is that important to our now and future. I think he's overrated because people seem to consider him some phenomenal generational talent who will own the league for the next decade. Not likely with Crosby, Malkin, Tavares, Stamkos, Ovy, RNH, Hall, Eberle, Seguin............................................ .... etc, etc,etc are still in the league. In my opinion, he'll be equivalent to Kesler at his peak.
we can agree here. i love kesler, id be fine if he were to become a player of the same mold! i think a more realistic comparison would be Jordan Staal though.

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01-08-2013, 08:39 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
OK...? Fairly equal. Pleks was older, but had more points in 10 less games. Both were plus players, the numbers are irrelevant however, because they're more team related. So take both of the with a grain of salt. Playoffs again, Pleks did the same in half the time...

So you think he has Plekanec potential... or what?
i think that their offense is essentially a wash, considering Pleks was 3-4 years older and had already had significant pro experience before making the jump to the NHL.

now, i really can't say what plekanec looked like back then, because i honestly can't recall paying attention to him in his rookie season, but i do think that Couts has the potential to be a 60-80 point player in his prime. i can see him topping out around 78-80 points in a good year. but i really do see him finishing in the top 3 or 4 in selke voting and i do think he has the ability to bring his defense to the level where he can win one.

to condense all my posts, to be clear; i do not think couturier is a better player than plekanec right now. thats clear, and anyone can see that. pleks is a 30 year old veteran who is experienced in this league and has put up solid numbers in his career and is a valuable piece. i DO believe that couturier has the potential to be better than plekanec. i can't say that for sure, obviously none of us can, but his pedigree and the way he performed last year as a very young kid with no pro experience, playing in primarily defensive roles, proves that he has a high ceiling. i DO think that subban has more value than couturier. he's accomplished more here than couts has and has the tools to be a prime time defenseman. i don't think he'll be as good as a lot of people seem to think he will be, and i would not trade couturier for him. if i had to trade couts, i would target a different defenseman, because in my opinion, subban is not the defenseman we need to save our blue line.

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01-08-2013, 09:10 PM
  #137
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PLECKS has amazing "puck possession skills" and is a savvy vet who takes the PK pressure off Briere/Giroux/Schenn to be PKers (...but the real gift is that in that role HE CURRENTLY gives you MORE THAN COUTS offensively) I think PK has the 'TUDE you are looking for from a stud defenceman in Philly (PR milking Roenick/Clarke/Lindros-esque).... I think the players coming back are young and very talented and add to a bright HABS future! (....and with their youth now + loss of talent NOW as a HABS TEAM, I would dream of a Seth Jones/Mackinnon/Drouin/Niska(?) 2013 DRAFT in addition to an already impressive group of YOUNG players!)



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i think that their offense is essentially a wash, considering Pleks was 3-4 years older and had already had significant pro experience before making the jump to the NHL.

now, i really can't say what plekanec looked like back then, because i honestly can't recall paying attention to him in his rookie season, but i do think that Couts has the potential to be a 60-80 point player in his prime. i can see him topping out around 78-80 points in a good year. but i really do see him finishing in the top 3 or 4 in selke voting and i do think he has the ability to bring his defense to the level where he can win one.

to condense all my posts, to be clear; i do not think couturier is a better player than plekanec right now. thats clear, and anyone can see that. pleks is a 30 year old veteran who is experienced in this league and has put up solid numbers in his career and is a valuable piece. i DO believe that couturier has the potential to be better than plekanec. i can't say that for sure, obviously none of us can, but his pedigree and the way he performed last year as a very young kid with no pro experience, playing in primarily defensive roles, proves that he has a high ceiling. i DO think that subban has more value than couturier. he's accomplished more here than couts has and has the tools to be a prime time defenseman. i don't think he'll be as good as a lot of people seem to think he will be, and i would not trade couturier for him. if i had to trade couts, i would target a different defenseman, because in my opinion, subban is not the defenseman we need to save our blue line.

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01-08-2013, 09:45 PM
  #138
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Once again, a Habs fans fails to miss the point. For some reason you are all just assuming that players simply can't get better. Like its some kind of unheard of occurance. You do understand that he was 18/19 years old last year, correct? Where was plekanec when he was that young? Oh that's right, he didnt play more than 2 games in the nhl until he was 23. Wow. Could it be that he GASP! Wasn't as good as couturier is now when he was his age? Yes, that's exactly it.

To say that we'd be lucky if couturier ever becomes Tomas plekanec tells me that your judgement is based off some sort of fantasy world.
And your taking on the best two way centers in the game and comparing him to a young kid who has played very well in his young career and as a lot of POTENTIAL!

The key word is Potential ... Comparing them at 18/19 ... 10/11 doesnt mean anything in the PRESENT!

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01-08-2013, 09:46 PM
  #139
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younger legs + more feisty - does not equal savvy and better defensive play - #2PK vs #what? (and with you having a better D last year (No Markov here)) get your **** straight .....Pleks is a better player NOW on both ends of the ice - Couts will be long term - you biatches are in the "GAME" to win NOW - we ARE NOT! Gotta gamble to win sometimes!!
Couts isn't fast, nor is he overly feisty...yet he still brings savvy and better defensive play. Not sure I'd call the Flyers D better last year, did you watch any of their games? Don't think I'm the one who needs to get my **** straight.

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01-08-2013, 09:50 PM
  #140
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fine yoda - I will eat more cheese and less bran!



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Couts isn't fast, nor is he overly feisty...yet he still brings savvy and better defensive play. Not sure I'd call the Flyers D better last year, did you watch any of their games? Don't think I'm the one who needs to get my **** straight.

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01-08-2013, 10:02 PM
  #141
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no one is claiming that couturier is better than plekanec right now. but thats not the point. not at all. we're speaking in terms of value ON THE MARKET. of potential. how about we compare plekanec rookie season to couturiers rookie season? that would be a better comparison of what the actual discussion is about because it doesn't seem like you are understanding (at least my own) point of view.

Tomas Plekanec: 2005-2006: 23 years old. 67GP 9G 20A 29P +4
Playoffs: 6GP 0G 4P

Sean Couturier: 2011-2012: 19 years old. 77GP 13G 14A 27P +18
Playoffs: 11GP 3G 1A 4P
Sorry to interject. However, I would point out that if we do stuff like that then Subban is MILES ahead of Chara because of how much significantly better Subban's 1st two years have been than Chara's 1st two years were. Would you take Subban over Chara for the next 3 years? Right now, who would you rather have, Chara or Subban? Most teams would say Chara unless they were a rebuilding team. Using your logic, though, Subban will be even better than Chara because his 1st two seasons in the NHL were significantly better than Chara's.

The whole problem with potential and figuring out values is that people always assume their rookie WILL achieve that great potential. The reality is that far more fall off than jump on, so to speak. Yes, Couturier shows the potential to be like or even better than Plekanec. However, it was ONE season. He may very well regress, or slow down in his development, or any other number of things. Potential is not a guarantee. That is why a player in his prime is going to be worth more, to certain teams, than a rookie who might exceed, equal, or never get to that established player's value.

I seem to recall having this exact same argument with some Philly fans after JvR had his great post season run a few years back. He was also untouchable and would become the next best thing to sliced bread. Where is he playing, again? I am not trying to be a smart@$$, just making a point about how perceived potential is not always better than actual proven production. If you tell me Couturier is better than Sam Gagner, I agree in a heartbeat. If you tell me he is better than Plekanec, I would say not yet, and maybe not ever. "Potential" vs "Actual". Something to think about.


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01-08-2013, 10:13 PM
  #142
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Sorry to interject. However, I would point out that if we do stuff like that then Subban is MILES ahead of Chara because of how much significantly better Subban's 1st two years have been than Chara's 1st two years were. Would you take Subban over Chara for the next 3 years? Right now, who would you rather have, Chara or Subban? Most teams would say Chara unless they were a rebuilding team. Using your logic, though, Subban will be even better than Chara because his 1st two seasons in the NHL were significantly better than Chara's.

The whole problem with potential and figuring out values is that people always assume their rookie WILL achieve that great potential. The reality is that far more fall off than jump on, so to speak. Yes, Couturier shows the potential to be like or even better than Plekanec. However, it was ONE season. He may very well regress, or slow down in his development, or any other number of things. Potential is not a guarantee. That is why a player in his prime is going to be worth more, to certain teams, than a rookie who might exceed, equal, or never get to that established player's value.

I seem to recall having this exact same argument with some Philly fans after JvR had his great post season run a few years back. He was also untouchable and would become the next best thing to sliced bread. Where is he playing, again? I am not trying to be a smart@$$, just making a point about how perceived potential is not always better than actual proven production. If you tell me Couturier is better than Sam Gagner, I agree in a heartbeat. If you tell me he is better than Plekanec, I would say not yet, and maybe not ever. "Potential" vs "Actual". Something to think about.
agreed to a certain extent, except when it comes to defensemen, things get more difficult to tell, which is why you see many more failed high picks at the position. Chara was probably not the best comparison either considering the dude is a giant and was probably still extremely awkward when he entered the league . And your point on potential is noted and i agree, and i would whole heartedly support your claim if i were defending the potential of a kid who was yet to play in the league. we've seen, completely disregarding numbers, the talent couturier has first hand, and my position is based solely off of watching his game closely all season, granted it's still my opinion and nothing more, but i believe there to be a little bit more than simple ambiguous potential there.

when i speak of "value" however, i speak of actual player value in the most realistic sense possible. typically, teams tend to give up more for the young blue chip kid with tons of potential than the 30 year old vet who's been there, because why give up the assets for a guy who nearing the end of his prime, when you can use them for a kid who hasn't reached it yet? it's more of a gamble and i get that, but that's the reality of value in this league. However, i fully understand your position. we're all guilty of being pumped on our own prospects, especially when they show us glimpses of what they can become.

and i remember the many, many arguments regarding JVR. i think it was mostly us trying to trick ourselves out of the disappointment. we all had such high hopes for JVR when he was drafted, and who wouldn't for a 2nd overall pick? especially when your team just finished a season with 56 points... he looked like a stud and then got here and was, for the most part, underwhelming. he showed flashed of brilliance and he still to this day has unreal natural talent. if he can put together, that kid has the ability to be scary good, but unfortunately i was a bit skeptical of him after his first season even. i never really saw that heart in him that you need to take advantage of the talent.

but i would not compare JVR to couturier. you can blatantly see the difference in them as players and as people. JVR is such a nice kid (i've had the pleasure of meeting him a couple times) and a hard worker, but couturier has that certain something. you can't explain it, but the way he plays the game and sees the game is vastly superior to JVR in almost every way.


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01-08-2013, 10:16 PM
  #143
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we can agree here. i love kesler, id be fine if he were to become a player of the same mold! i think a more realistic comparison would be Jordan Staal though.
I mean production wise, and perhaps defensive ability.

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01-08-2013, 10:16 PM
  #144
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Value wise how would:

Subban + Bourque

for

Schenn + Schenn

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01-08-2013, 10:27 PM
  #145
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Value wise how would:

Subban + Bourque

for

Schenn + Schenn
As a Habs fan I wouldn't do that.

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01-08-2013, 11:41 PM
  #146
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So now that Couturier has had a decent rookie season and playoffs he's suddenly comparable to Subban?

You guys do know he could end up a Jordan Staal and simply be a 50pt defensive player right? I see all people jumping around claiming it's a sure thing he'll become Bergeron. You guys should chill out. He could crash and burn and amount to nothing. I love how youth is overrated on HF though.

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01-09-2013, 01:38 AM
  #147
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I think most Couts supporters have given up on this thread, and with good reason.

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01-09-2013, 06:11 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
Epitome of homerism. Pleks doesn't have the value coots has and its not remotely close. Subban>=Couturier value wise.. I think it's even if I HAD to place value I give Subban a slight edge... Now Habs fans who has more value Subban or Pleks? Didn't think so. Couturier has better defense now than Pleks.
I don't consider myself a homer at all, but after watching hockey for 40 + years, I know how valuable an outstanding defenceman is. If the Flyers could get PK straight up for Couts, they would be all over it. The only possible fly in the ointment will be the kind of contract PK gets in the next few days. If he's severely over paid, his value might drop.

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01-09-2013, 07:24 AM
  #149
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
what exactly about lars eller is the same as sean couturier? he had 1 more point in 2 more games as a 22-23 year old as couturier had in his first league experience as an 18-19 year old.

i really have to question if you've watched Couturier at all if you're really drawing parallels with Lars Eller, who has 47 points in 163 NHL games. Eller could still be a decent player, but he has nowhere near the ceiling that Couturier has.
I said that Couturier and Eller are COMPARABLE. I have stated it all throughout this thread. Let me try again:

Both players played on the third line as a center.

Couturier: 77 GP, 27 points, +18, 82 hits, 33 blocked shots, +22 takeaways, TOI/ES: 10:59, PK:2:41, PP::26

Eller: 79 GP, 28 points, -5, 72 hits, 55 blocked shots, +11 takeaways, TOI/ES: 12:57, PK: 1:41, PP: .39

Now, if your ONLY counter argument is that Couturier is younger than Eller and drafted 5-6 spots ahead of him relative to their respective drafts, the answer is so what? Being 3 years younger does not automatically make you a better player. I also have not said Eller is better. If those statistics are not the epitome of comparable simply because of age, then nobody in the NHL who is not playing the exact same position, at the exact same age, on the exact same line, with almost equally identical wingers can ever be compared to each other ever again.

The funny thing is that in your attempt to portray Couturier as the best combinantion of the next Selke defensive and Rocket Richard point producing player on the planet, your only argument is that he is young and didn't play the PP. You seem to ignore that he played on a terrific offensively minded team with great forwards more than capable of taking care of the scoring allowing Couturier to play the defensive forward role. You also forget that while he didn't play the PP he also never faced the top shutdown lines of any team. What are my points? Simple. If he ever gets to a point where his offensive output starts to get close to his defensive capabilities, he will start getting more defensive oriented lines facing him. His role will change. He will not only face the top offensive lines of other teams as coaches will aim for other match ups. Yes, it was his first year in the league. Now coaches will have had a lot of time to examine NHL game tape and will make life harder for him. It happens with most sophomores.

The kid has a ton of potential, but he is not Plekanec. Yet. Nothing in that statement is insulting. It is the same as saying Subban has tons of potential, but he is not Chara. Yet. Nothing insulting in that statement.

As far as his value, please stop ignoring the reality that Couturier would not be more valuable than Plekanec to every team in the league because he is a blue chip prospect with tons of potential. There are plenty of teams that would like him for that reason, and value him more than Plekanec for that reason. At the same time, there are many teams looking to make a playoff run right now that would prefer the veteran proven elite shutdown defensive forward capable of producing 50-70 points playing in a purely defensive shutdown role with garbage linemates. If you can not see that as the reality that it is...well...good luck and have a nice day.

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Old
01-09-2013, 07:29 AM
  #150
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by Stizzle View Post
I think most Couts supporters have given up on this thread, and with good reason.
Agreed. Nice to see most Couturier supporters recognize when other fans see him as valuable, yet comaparable to good players on their own teams with the exception of proven established talent in its prime. Yeesh, next thing you know, someone will claim that RNH has more value than Giroux because he got 52 points in 62 games during his rookie season...

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