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Bylsma eyes other guy for Malkin-Neal line

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Old
01-08-2013, 04:31 PM
  #151
TheRollingPuck
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01-08-2013, 04:36 PM
  #152
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Hello to ya all! So excited to see some best hockey again. Hmm.. I'm kinda intrigued to see Sutter on Malkin's wing. At least for couple of games.

Kunitz - Crosby - Dupuis
Sutter - Malkin - Neal
Cooke - Jeffrey - Kennedy
Glass - Vitale - Adams

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01-08-2013, 04:48 PM
  #153
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Glass? Sure, he was promised a bigger role, but one would think that meant a few shifts here and there on the 3rd line. Even Bennett would be a better option with Malkin and Neal, and i dont like to rush prospects.

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01-08-2013, 05:19 PM
  #154
KIRK
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Originally Posted by Hottubber View Post
Apparently you havent been watching the pens very long. If you expect Sid to perform with Cooke & Kennedy and expect him to never get shut down, you will be very disapponited
I for one agree. With how the lines were structured last year, a team-- say Philly-- could completely sell out in defending a Kunitz-Geno-Neal line without consequence. Sid didn't have the horses to exploit the advantage.

The obvious argument, then, is to split the horse, to make a team pick its poison. Thing is, that's not really a playoff solution either. Regular season, no problem. But, when the playoffs come, what advantage is there to giving teams the Sid or Geno can get you dilemma and then have one or both go into the playoffs shorthanded in terms of caliber of linemates.

Any team is going to have questions in the playoffs. I'd rather the Pens questions be about the defense than about whether Sid or Geno can exploit the advantage of no team having the depth to take out both of them if both actually had a pair of legit top six wingers.

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01-08-2013, 05:25 PM
  #155
KIRK
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Stanley Cup team:

Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin
Fedotenko-Malkin-Talbot
Cooke-Staal-Kennedy
Dupuis-Adams-Satan
Sykora

Orpik-Gonchar
Eaton-Letang
Gill-Scuderi
Boucher

Fleury
Garon

Now:

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
_____-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy
Glass-Vitale-Adams
Jeffrey/Tangradi/Bennett

Orpik-Letang
Martin-Engelland
Despres-Niskanen
Lovejoy/Strait/Bortuzzo

Fleury
Vokoun

*lineup and lines subject to change

I think the Penguins have more skill now than they did in 2008-09. Sure Staal and Gonchar are gone, but Sutter is still considered a solid 3rd line center.

Penguins could use more skill but they don't need more to be Cup contenders. They just need to play smart, disciplined hockey.
You're missing four critical distinctions:

1. The Pens ran a different system then.

2. That defense was far grittier.

3. Max Talbot morphed into Ryan Malone 2.0 for 16 rather fortuitously timed games in terms of how he played with Geno and Feds.

4. Most important for me, no team had the horses to go against a Feds-Geno-Talbot line. Washington wasn't deep in terms of shut down guys and not a good defensive team. Carolina had nobody to matchup against Geno (no shut down center, no smothering defenseman). And, Detroit had the same problem with Datysuk's broken ankle. If the Pens had faced Boston or NJ that year, it would have been far tougher sledding, because both of those teams, given their healthy personnel and systems, presented far more difficult matchup challenges.

You always need a little luck to win a cup. You need the right collection of talent to overcome things when luck isn't going your way.

Maybe the Pens get lucky, because I wouldn't count on the latter as this roster stands now.

Give me a winger for Sid, a winger for Geno, a playoff defenseman, and a sign that DB looked up the word 'adjustment' in the dictionary this summer, and it's a different story.

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01-08-2013, 05:25 PM
  #156
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somehow you are right. but in 2011 Boston also experienced lack of skill in comparison with Vancouver
Yes and no. Pittsburgh has 3-4 offensive threats (Geno, Sid, Neal, and say someone else steps up), and 1 defensive threat (Letang). MAF is a wash as everyone needs solid goaltending to go anywhere.

Boston's cup team had Bergeron, Horton, Marchand, Lucic, Krejci, Peverley, Ryder, Seguin (although didn't play much). Yes Pittsburgh owns them in top end skill as I'd put Geno, Sid and Neal above all of them... but there's something to be said about having 7 legitimate top 6 forwards, vs the 3 that Pittsburgh has.

Not to go to far off topic...
This is honestly (and I know I'll get flamed for saying it, don't think it'll happen, and am likely in the minority) why I would trade Malkin for 2 top quality (and more affordable) players (another C and a winger - or 2 wingers if you're comfortable with Sutter as a #2c). Until the cap starts going up again (likely year 4 of the CBA - maybe as early as yr 3), Pittsburgh will be in a tough position cap wise to put talent around Crosby and Malkin. Additionally, with the new contract limits, what will Malkin want (money wise) and what's that going to do to the Pens cap management?

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01-08-2013, 05:27 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I for one agree. With how the lines were structured last year, a team-- say Philly-- could completely sell out in defending a Kunitz-Geno-Neal line without consequence. Sid didn't have the horses to exploit the advantage.

The obvious argument, then, is to split the horse, to make a team pick its poison. Thing is, that's not really a playoff solution either. Regular season, no problem. But, when the playoffs come, what advantage is there to giving teams the Sid or Geno can get you dilemma and then have one or both go into the playoffs shorthanded in terms of caliber of linemates.

Any team is going to have questions in the playoffs. I'd rather the Pens questions be about the defense than about whether Sid or Geno can exploit the advantage of no team having the depth to take out both of them if both actually had a pair of legit top six wingers.
Now did Philly beat the Pens because the Pens couldn't score enough goals? Pit scored 3, 5, 4, 10, 3, and 1 goals in that series. Certainly enough goals to win most series, but the Pens gave up 3! games with over 8 goals against and only held them under 3 goals for a single game. Now was goal scoring still Crosby's problem? 8pts in 6 games would say no.

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01-08-2013, 05:29 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Yes and no. Pittsburgh has 3-4 offensive threats (Geno, Sid, Neal, and say someone else steps up), and 1 defensive threat (Letang). MAF is a wash as everyone needs solid goaltending to go anywhere.

Boston's cup team had Bergeron, Horton, Marchand, Lucic, Krejci, Peverley, Ryder, Seguin (although didn't play much). Yes Pittsburgh owns them in top end skill as I'd put Geno, Sid and Neal above all of them... but there's something to be said about having 7 legitimate top 6 forwards, vs the 3 that Pittsburgh has.

Not to go to far off topic...
This is honestly (and I know I'll get flamed for saying it, don't think it'll happen, and am likely in the minority) why I would trade Malkin for 2 top quality (and more affordable) players (another C and a winger - or 2 wingers if you're comfortable with Sutter as a #2c). Until the cap starts going up again (likely year 4 of the CBA - maybe as early as yr 3), Pittsburgh will be in a tough position cap wise to put talent around Crosby and Malkin. Additionally, with the new contract limits, what will Malkin want (money wise) and what's that going to do to the Pens cap management?
You should get flamed, although the reason you should get flamed is because the Pens have the cap space and the organizational assets to get those two wingers. Why trade Geno when you've spent 3 years accruing the pieces to get the pieces you need to win a cup?

Shero has the pieces (and cap space down the line) to get Geno and Neal a Malone/Kulemin type. He's got the pieces to go get Sid and Kunitz a guy like Iginla. Are you that married to every single Penguins prospect and prospective pick?

Frankly, what this organization needs is the old Ray Shero as GM, not the guy who is so worried about whether a prospect or pick might make a significant contribution that he ignores the facts that there's no guarantee there and that the significant impact, if it comes, more likely than not will come when Sid (and Geno) are 30.

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01-08-2013, 05:29 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Yes and no. Pittsburgh has 3-4 offensive threats (Geno, Sid, Neal, and say someone else steps up), and 1 defensive threat (Letang). MAF is a wash as everyone needs solid goaltending to go anywhere.

Boston's cup team had Bergeron, Horton, Marchand, Lucic, Krejci, Peverley, Ryder, Seguin (although didn't play much). Yes Pittsburgh owns them in top end skill as I'd put Geno, Sid and Neal above all of them... but there's something to be said about having 7 legitimate top 6 forwards, vs the 3 that Pittsburgh has.

Not to go to far off topic...
This is honestly (and I know I'll get flamed for saying it, don't think it'll happen, and am likely in the minority) why I would trade Malkin for 2 top quality (and more affordable) players (another C and a winger - or 2 wingers if you're comfortable with Sutter as a #2c). Until the cap starts going up again (likely year 4 of the CBA - maybe as early as yr 3), Pittsburgh will be in a tough position cap wise to put talent around Crosby and Malkin. Additionally, with the new contract limits, what will Malkin want (money wise) and what's that going to do to the Pens cap management?
How can you count Seguin (fourth liner then, who played like 6 games) and Ryder, Peverley, but not Kunitz, or even Dupuis and Sutter?

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01-08-2013, 05:31 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Now did Philly beat the Pens because the Pens couldn't score enough goals? Pit scored 3, 5, 4, 10, 3, and 1 goals in that series. Certainly enough goals to win most series, but the Pens gave up 3! games with over 8 goals against and only held them under 3 goals for a single game. Now was goal scoring still Crosby's problem? 8pts in 6 games would say no.
Their Russian head case in goal is why Sid had 8 points in 6 games, not because Sid (or his line) was dominant or controlling of play for significant stretches.

I think back to the ride Timonen had in 2008 and 2009 against the Pens. He must have looked at Sully and Dupuis (and even Cooke and Kennedy for those few shifts) and thanked whatever God prevented Ray Shero from making deadline deals last year.

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01-08-2013, 06:56 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
When your 4th line has Dupers and Satan on it, you have a good team.
What about when your 2nd line has Fedotenko and Talbot

Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
You're missing four critical distinctions:

1. The Pens ran a different system then.

2. That defense was far grittier.

3. Max Talbot morphed into Ryan Malone 2.0 for 16 rather fortuitously timed games in terms of how he played with Geno and Feds.

4. Most important for me, no team had the horses to go against a Feds-Geno-Talbot line. Washington wasn't deep in terms of shut down guys and not a good defensive team. Carolina had nobody to matchup against Geno (no shut down center, no smothering defenseman). And, Detroit had the same problem with Datysuk's broken ankle. If the Pens had faced Boston or NJ that year, it would have been far tougher sledding, because both of those teams, given their healthy personnel and systems, presented far more difficult matchup challenges.

You always need a little luck to win a cup. You need the right collection of talent to overcome things when luck isn't going your way.

Maybe the Pens get lucky, because I wouldn't count on the latter as this roster stands now.

Give me a winger for Sid, a winger for Geno, a playoff defenseman, and a sign that DB looked up the word 'adjustment' in the dictionary this summer, and it's a different story.
I'm not disagreeing, I was responding to a comment that said the Pens don't have enough skill to be a Stanley Cup contender.

I think we do have enough skill, sure those things you mentioned will solidify our lineup. But I don't think it's the answer between Cup and no Cup, like I said, play smart, disciplined hockey, our offense will find ways to score, the defense and goalies need to find ways to keep the puck out of the net. And I know that's the pretty obvious solution for every team and it's easier said than done. But I don't think we need hard hitting gritty defensemen to win the Cup, we have Orpik and Engelland as hitters, Letang can be physical and so can Despres if he makes the team and proves himself.

Dan Bylsma has to make adjustments, no doubt about it, and he said he did make adjustments, so we'll see how those adjustments work out for the 2013 Pittsburgh Penguins.

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Old
01-08-2013, 10:42 PM
  #162
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I really feel it has to be Tangradi for lack of batter options maybe Jeffrey but he would be better centering the 4th line

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01-08-2013, 11:50 PM
  #163
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I really feel it has to be Tangradi for lack of batter options maybe Jeffrey but he would be better centering the 4th line

If Jeffrey doesn't automatically gel on LW on Geno's line, then he may be best served being the 4th line centre because I think Vitale would work really well as a RW on the 4th line with his forechecking ability. I still think Jeffrey has better potential than Tangradi offensively, so I think it's his spot to lose, but this does bring up another option.

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Cooke/Tango-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Tango-Sutter-Kennedy
Glass-Jeffrey-Vitale
Adams

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01-09-2013, 07:49 AM
  #164
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If Jeffrey doesn't automatically gel on LW on Geno's line, then he may be best served being the 4th line centre because I think Vitale would work really well as a RW on the 4th line with his forechecking ability. I still think Jeffrey has better potential than Tangradi offensively, so I think it's his spot to lose, but this does bring up another option.

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Cooke/Tango-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Tango-Sutter-Kennedy
Glass-Jeffrey-Vitale
Adams
Yes! Please let Adams be the 13th forward

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01-09-2013, 07:55 AM
  #165
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Yes! Please let Adams be the 13th forward
Bury him in the minors!

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01-09-2013, 08:24 AM
  #166
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Bury him in the minors!
meh, he seems like a good guy to have around practice and to be a solid injury fill-in. Though if there is a top 6 injury I wouldn't be against calling up Bennett and leaving Adams as the 13th

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01-09-2013, 08:25 AM
  #167
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Nice to see everyone again. And back to the same debate.

I am ok with TK having the first shot on Geno's line. He needs to play griity, make space by being in the right lanes, and not over shoot lol. Give him 5-7 games to see how it works and if he can fit his game into the sexiest 3rd wheel in hockey.

After that, give Cooke the same chance. If both those options clearly are not working then I would prefer a drafted winger have an opportunity.

I would need to see DJ in camp to consider him an option. If he looks fully recovered he should be option 3.

At that point we know our reasonable options were tried, and the benefit of playing experience over inexperience was not providing a meaningful upside. I am guessing Bennet needs more pro seasoning in the AHL, but I believe experience is a great teacher. The other plus is that Geno and Neal leave little burden on a younger player.

I think of the flyers last year. They stuck with young guys through the season. Wasn't always pretty in the beginning, but by mid year they had acclimated and you got a better sense of what they can do at the pro level.

If TK works, I like having a 3rd line of Tangradi BS Cooke. That is a 3rd line which could bring some grit and different look, and potentially produce at an above avg 3rd line pace.

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01-09-2013, 08:26 AM
  #168
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Mozyakin-Malkin-Neal


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01-09-2013, 09:55 AM
  #169
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Mozyakin-Malkin-Neal

Kunitz-Crosby-Neal
Mozyakin-Malkin-Kulemin


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01-09-2013, 10:03 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Stanley Cup team:

Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin
Fedotenko-Malkin-Talbot
Cooke-Staal-Kennedy
Dupuis-Adams-Satan
Sykora

Orpik-Gonchar
Eaton-Letang
Gill-Scuderi
Boucher

Fleury
Garon

Now:

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
_____-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy
Glass-Vitale-Adams
Jeffrey/Tangradi/Bennett

Orpik-Letang
Martin-Engelland
Despres-Niskanen
Lovejoy/Strait/Bortuzzo

Fleury
Vokoun

*lineup and lines subject to change

I think the Penguins have more skill now than they did in 2008-09. Sure Staal and Gonchar are gone, but Sutter is still considered a solid 3rd line center.

Penguins could use more skill but they don't need more to be Cup contenders. They just need to play smart, disciplined hockey.
I tried to see your argument but I just cannot. Gonchar was a fabulous player who was, a 1b type of guy. A true standout Defensive player. Letang has not got to that level yet and a younger Letang was on that team. Staal was anchoring the third line. He will easily be a 30 goal scorer in Carolina.

Skill is not just flash and dash. You had Scuderi and Gill as a shutdown pair. Gill eats space as the cookie monster eats cookies. Scuderi has tremendous positioning and stickwork.

If you look at the current lineup you have a very raw defense, and a very top heavy offense. Honestly, Ray Shero needs to move some of our prospects for proven players. The time to win a championship may come and go before our eyes. This short season may benefit the Pens, Crosby and Malkin can hopefully remain healthy.

We lost the big three, which made us special. We aren't a tough team to play against. We have a rebuilding teams defense. Our "franchise" goalie is a average starter who goes through streaks of putrid. Luckily we have a proven back-up/1a.

We need to make trades this season and go for it. Our window is closing. Who cares about guys who need another five years to develop, honestly probably only one or maybe two (or NONE!!) of our d prospects will be effective nhlers. We need to maximize our chances of winning NOW.

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01-09-2013, 10:08 AM
  #171
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Now did Philly beat the Pens because the Pens couldn't score enough goals? Pit scored 3, 5, 4, 10, 3, and 1 goals in that series. Certainly enough goals to win most series, but the Pens gave up 3! games with over 8 goals against and only held them under 3 goals for a single game. Now was goal scoring still Crosby's problem? 8pts in 6 games would say no.
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. The line of Sullivan-Crosby-Dupuis was actually pretty effective. I was a little surprised that Shero showed no interest in bringing Sully back on another one year deal. His game seemed to mesh well with Sid in the short time we saw them.

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01-09-2013, 10:10 AM
  #172
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Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. The line of Sullivan-Crosby-Dupuis was actually pretty effective. I was a little surprised that Shero showed no interest in bringing Sully back on another one year deal. His game seemed to mesh well with Sid in the short time we saw them.
I always got Sullivan and Mark Kachowski confused last year. I'd yell backcheck Kachowski and realize that it was 2012, not 1989.

I'm glad hes gone for the simple fact I didn't enjoy my brain blending time. It's 2013, it's 2013....... ITS 2013

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01-09-2013, 10:11 AM
  #173
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Time to trade one of those stud D-men in the system for an established winger.

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01-09-2013, 10:13 AM
  #174
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Time to trade one of those stud D-men in the system for an established winger.
I'm sure Matta for Ryan can be arranged.

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01-09-2013, 10:14 AM
  #175
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Mozyakin-Malkin-Neal

The MnM line... mmmmmm

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