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Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated" Rated PG13, unmoderated but threads must stay on topic - that means you can flame each other all you want as long as it's legal

Choose your would-be assassin's weapon

View Poll Results: Which weapon would you like your would-be assassin to use?
assault-style weapon 3 16.67%
handgun 0 0%
hunting firearm 0 0%
knife 1 5.56%
hammer 5 27.78%
car 4 22.22%
pipe bomb 3 16.67%
ice pick 2 11.11%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-08-2013, 11:36 AM
  #26
Vtwin
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
Again, so you'd extend that freedom to nuclear weaponry?

And yes, I am blaming the object for it's use. It's not a hammer or a knife that have great societal benefit, it's a gun that kills or threatens to kill.

Societal benefit?

Let's try and think of three things that have no societal benefit but have a definite harmful impact on society.

Lets further try and think of the three that impact society in the most negative way.

Lets further rank those three in order of the benefit to society from increased regulation.

Let's further focus our efforts on the worst offender to the least offender.

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01-08-2013, 11:38 AM
  #27
Gobias Industries
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Originally Posted by Vtwin View Post
Societal benefit?

Let's try and think of three things that have no societal benefit but have a definite harmful impact on society.

Lets further try and think of the three that impact society in the most negative way.

Lets further rank those three in order of the benefit to society from increased regulation.

Let's further focus our efforts on the worst offender to the least offender.
Well you lost me on the third line, what's the point?

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01-08-2013, 11:40 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
Well you lost me on the third line, what's the point?
You're just being emotional.

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Old
01-08-2013, 11:43 AM
  #29
Vtwin
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
What's the societal benefit of guns?
Food, defense of self/family, recreation. Among others.

Are you going to answer my question or use Ugmodude's tactic of ignore and obfuscate?

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01-08-2013, 11:45 AM
  #30
Gobias Industries
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Originally Posted by Vtwin View Post
Food, defense of self/family, recreation. Among others.

Are you going to answer my question or use Ugmodude's tactic of ignore and obfuscate?
Wow, I don't think I've provided even a hint of aggression but I appreciate the comparisons.

I already responded to you in the other thread, but these "benefits" should be measured against their negative consequences. The last two I don't get, the first one I do. But we don't have 300 million guns in the USA for hunting, so I feel the benefits are extremely outweighed by the negatives.

I don't have to remove myself from your history or status quo on gun culture, but you might want to give it a try. Neither are really relevant in a debate about the benefit of guns.

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01-08-2013, 11:46 AM
  #31
Vtwin
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
Well you lost me on the third line, what's the point?
I guess that answers my question.

Isn't it pretty clear?

List the things that have the "worst" use to negative impact ratio and focus our efforts on fixing the worst to have the best positive impact on society we can.

I hope you are being intentionally obtuse.

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01-08-2013, 11:49 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Vtwin View Post
I guess that answers my question.

Isn't it pretty clear?

List the things that have the "worst" use to negative impact ratio and focus our efforts on fixing the worst to have the best positive impact on society we can.

I hope you are being intentionally obtuse.
I'm not, but what are "the things"? Seems like a pretty heavy task to take on.

What do other "things" have to do with measuring the pros and cons of gun ownership?

Your condescension is appreciated btw!

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01-08-2013, 11:50 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
Wow, I don't think I've provided even a hint of aggression but I appreciate the comparisons.

I already responded to you in the other thread, but these "benefits" should be measured against their negative consequences. The last two I don't get, the first one I do.
Please indulge me with answering the question again in this thread since my question is a direct response to something you posted in this thread.

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01-08-2013, 11:52 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
I'm not, but what are "the things"? Seems like a pretty heavy task to take on.

What do other "things" have to do with measuring the pros and cons of gun ownership?

Your condescension is appreciated btw!
You can't think of anything society "uses" that has a negative impact in both human life and economic terms?

Come on man.

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01-08-2013, 11:55 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Vtwin View Post
You can't think of anything society "uses" that has a negative impact in both human life and economic terms?

Come on man.
Sure, but my position is that a gun has far less benefit than other "things", with potential deadly consequence. There are few "things" I can think of with a similar balance.

Recreational drugs, I guess, but they're illegal. Why don't you indulge me in what you'd want me to say?

This is a debate about guns, I'd prefer to not steer the ship elsewhere.

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01-08-2013, 11:56 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
Again, so you'd extend that freedom to nuclear weaponry?

And yes, I am blaming the object for it's use. It's not a hammer or a knife that have great societal benefit, it's a gun that kills or threatens to kill.


To be clear. This is what I am talking about. You brought "societal benefit" into this discussion.

Now let's here it.

Is there anything that has a more negative impact on society than guns?

What are the benefits to society of these things?

Could more regulation impact the level of negative impact?

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01-08-2013, 11:57 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Vtwin View Post
To be clear. This is what I am talking about. You brought "societal benefit" into this discussion.

Now let's here it.

Is there anything that has a more negative impact on society than guns?

What are the benefits to society of these things?

Could more regulation impact the level of negative impact?
Again, just tell me what you want me to say and let's skip the boring part.

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Old
01-08-2013, 11:58 AM
  #38
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Other: Chainsaw

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01-08-2013, 12:00 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
Other: Chainsaw



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Old
01-08-2013, 12:01 PM
  #40
Gobias Industries
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
Other: Chainsaw
I assume you're not on his side, but this is why I didn't even want to engage. Listening to someone trying to compare a chainsaw and a gun when it comes to societal benefit is about as interesting to me as watching paint dry.

But thanks for filling in for my lack of creativity.

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01-08-2013, 12:07 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
I assume you're not on his side, but this is why I didn't even want to engage. Listening to someone trying to compare a chainsaw and a gun when it comes to societal benefit is about as interesting to me as watching paint dry.

But thanks for filling in for my lack of creativity.
I think the fact that you'd only use your chainsaw in Doom if you're in God mode or have run out of ammo says a lot.

Though I guess it is a game, so...

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01-08-2013, 12:12 PM
  #42
Vtwin
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
Again, just tell me what you want me to say and let's skip the boring part.
Is this an example of the intelligent debate that is rumored to happen here?

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01-08-2013, 12:14 PM
  #43
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Is this an example of the intelligent debate that is rumored to happen here?
That's fine, I don't think any intelligence is required to list "things". I've already mentioned hammer and knife, and we've seen chainsaw offerred up, shall we start your argument there?

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01-08-2013, 12:15 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
I assume you're not on his side, but this is why I didn't even want to engage. Listening to someone trying to compare a chainsaw and a gun when it comes to societal benefit is about as interesting to me as watching paint dry.

But thanks for filling in for my lack of creativity.
You can't think of anything that has a signifcant negative impact on society that aslo has very little value to society?

Really?

We all know that is not true and we all know why you don't want to type out the logical answers.

Typical.

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01-08-2013, 12:17 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Vtwin View Post
You can't think of anything that has a signifcant negative impact on society that aslo has very little value to society?

Really?

We all know that is not true and we all know why you don't want to type out the logical answers.

Typical.
I named three, shall we proceed from there? It's fruitless because a hammer, knife and chainsaw have CLEAR BENEFITS to society that don't revolve around less important benefits like protection or fun. And (I assume) most gun owners in the US don't hunt?

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01-08-2013, 12:21 PM
  #46
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[QUOTE=Ugmo;57287145Well that's true... but isn't it an argument in favor of significantly stricter regulation? If you look at the last several major rampages (to say nothing of random, everyday killings that get less attention), they were committed by people with no prior criminal record. If there's a way of keeping guns out of the wrong hands without heavy regulation, it would be nice to hear it.[/QUOTE]

Regulation; but in what manner? An assault weapon ban like the Clinton one was wholly ineffective. In MA I live under that ban (our legislature made it stick indefinitely after the national ban expired). It didn't stop me from legally acquiring an AK platform rifle and several 30 round magazines earlier in 2012 (which I totally capitalized on and legally sold as the recent election happened, thats prime selling time ).

Regulation of any kind should be focused on the individual trying to obtain a firearm. This did work in Adam Lanza's case as he was denied sale at a CT shop. His mother dropped the ball though, badly. In the VT shootings the shooter had obvious warning signs that didn't make a red flag come up for one reason or another, I don't know the details of why. But he was accused of stalking 2 students, declared mentally ill by a VA special justice and ordered to attend treatment and was encouraged by a teacher to seek treatment. The Aurora, Colorado shooter had been seen by a few mental health specialists at his university.

So emphasis does need to be put on storing and securing legally owned weapons, educating prospective gun owners, targeting inner-city socioeconomic differences, investing in education, individual health care and health of families. The last 4 would help in violence as a whole, not just gun violence.


Last edited by Diskothek: 01-08-2013 at 12:26 PM.
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01-08-2013, 12:32 PM
  #47
Vtwin
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
I named three, shall we proceed from there? It's fruitless because a hammer, knife and chainsaw have CLEAR BENEFITS to society that don't revolve around less important benefits like protection or fun. And (I assume) most gun owners in the US don't hunt?
What CLEAR BENEFITS to society do cigarettes and soda have?

What are the societal impact of cigs and soda compared to that of guns?

Remember. You brought societal impact into the discussion.

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01-08-2013, 12:35 PM
  #48
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What CLEAR BENEFITS to society do cigarettes and soda have?

What are the societal impact of cigs and soda compared to that of guns?

Remember. You brought societal impact into the discussion.
The difference is the downside. And I actually see more upside in soda then guns, the taste and caffeine is great!

A gun can create an immediate harrowing experience and potential death. Any irresponsible use of one has a potential for extreme consequences. Neither soda nor cigarettes would be comparable in their reprocussions.

So yes, if I measure the pros and cons of the three (guns, cigarettes, soda) I would say guns certainly come out on the bottom, and their negative ramifications set them apart entirely.

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01-08-2013, 12:37 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
The difference is the downside. And I actually see more upside in soda then guns, the taste and caffeine is great!

A gun can create an immediate harrowing experience and potential death. Neither soda nor cigarettes would be comparable in their reprocussions.

So yes, if I measure the pros and cons of the three (guns, cigarettes, soda) I would say guns certainly come out on the bottom, and their negative ramifications set them apart entirely.
And anyway, cigarettes are highly regulated, much more than guns are in the US. It's yet another losing argument that Vtwin will insist is logically sound and that anyone who disputes it is simply being emotional. Tide goes out, tide comes in.

The soda comparison is just a joke.

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01-08-2013, 12:41 PM
  #50
Diskothek
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Again, so you'd extend that freedom to nuclear weaponry?

And yes, I am blaming the object for it's use. It's not a hammer or a knife that have great societal benefit, it's a gun that kills or threatens to kill.
People against guns roll their eyes to when cars are brought up, I do when nuclear freakin' weapons are. I'm not going to comment on regulation differences between small arms and nuclear arms of mass destruction which I can't even conceive how an individual would obtain.

Honestly, I can't keep going with you with a comment like "a gun kills or threatens to kill." You're giving the gun a conscience.

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