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Kaberle is a good defenseman and worth a lot, but at the same time, he will never be a true #1 defenseman. Kaberle is a great offensive defenseman with some wicked playmaking abilities and is a good #2 defenseman. But unlike other offensive-defenseman like Leetch, Gonchar and Blake, he will never be a #1 defensemen like them. He will not even likely be as good as Ozolinch, who can manage the #1 spot in his prime on a bad team. I think Kaberle will improve some more but never surpass his #2 role. I think he is comparable to Kim Johnson of the Flyers evem Johnson is slightly better.
In terms of trade value, Kaberle may be worth a guy like Jani Rita + a low 1st rounder from Edmonton or a guy like Hemsky straight up. Not sure if the Leafs want to do this (or proposing a trade altogether) since they are weak on defense.
Nobody has said he's a #1, because he's not... and may never be in the same category as guys like Leetch, Blake, Pronger, etc...
But, the draft offer... Rita and a low 1st for a 27 year old #2 defenseman? That's brutal.
He will not even likely be as good as Ozolinch, who can manage the #1 spot in his prime on a bad team. I think Kaberle will improve some more but never surpass his #2 role. I think he is comparable to Kim Johnson of the Flyers evem Johnson is slightly better.
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this is a very odd little circle of comparisons here imo..
ozo can be held as a number one i guess if you have numerous defensive dmen playing with/behind him... he isn't an anchor on anything imbalanced
kim johnsson is better than kaberle? how ??
personally i think both kim and kaberle are better than ozo
this is a very odd little circle of comparisons here imo..
ozo can be held as a number one i guess if you have numerous defensive dmen playing with/behind him... he isn't an anchor on anything imbalanced
kim johnsson is better than kaberle? how ??
personally i think both kim and kaberle are better than ozo
I never said that Ozolinch is better than Kaberle now. I just think in his prime, Ozolinch was a decent #1 defenseman (with some shortcomings). Can Kaberle be a #1 in the same regard? Imo no. Even though Kaberle and Ozolinch are both weak defensively, Ozolinch was a much fluid skater, a better goal-scorer, had a great shot and was a better overall offensive defenseman. Right now, Ozolinch is nearing the twilight of his career and Kaberle and Johnsson may both be better than him.
Johnsson is better than Kaberle in that he is solid defensively. Perhaps he isn't as talented as Kaberle offensively, I'd much rather have Johnsson playing defense than Kaberle in a critical situation. Johnsson is also slightly more physical.
I never said that Ozolinch is better than Kaberle now. I just think in his prime, Ozolinch was a decent #1 defenseman (with some shortcomings). Can Kaberle be a #1 in the same regard? Imo no. Even though Kaberle and Ozolinch are both weak defensively, Ozolinch was a much fluid skater, a better goal-scorer, had a great shot and was a better overall offensive defenseman. Right now, Ozolinch is nearing the twilight of his career and Kaberle and Johnsson may both be better than him.
Johnsson is better than Kaberle in that he is solid defensively. Perhaps he isn't as talented as Kaberle offensively, I'd much rather have Johnsson playing defense than Kaberle in a critical situation. Johnsson is also slightly more physical.
Thats weird, Ozolinsh is probably the one defenseman in the NHL who can say he is better offensively than Kaberle, yet worse defensively than Kaberle. (Yes I thought of Andy Delmore and Tom Poti!)
Nobody has said he's a #1, because he's not... and may never be in the same category as guys like Leetch, Blake, Pronger, etc...
But, the draft offer... Rita and a low 1st for a 27 year old #2 defenseman? That's brutal.
Your sense of value is brutal. Rita and a low 1st rounder for Kaberle is fair. Rita still has some value (maybe a mid 2nd rounder) and a 1st rounder is always a big trading chip. Kaberle can fetch that but not a whole lot more. Delmore was given away for nothing and Kaberle isn't worlds above Delmore in terms of talent. Both are one-dimensional, soft and weak defensively. Is Kaberle worth more than a 1st rounder and Rita? Is he realistically worth that much more than Delmore?
Maybe your sense of reality is skewered after seeing trades like an old and injured 7.5 million dollar Owen Nolan for Alyn MacAuley, 1st rounder and Brad Boyes. Or a near-UFA, near-40 year old Bryan Leetch for Immonen, Kondratiev, 1st and 2nd rounder.
I never said that Ozolinch is better than Kaberle now. I just think in his prime, Ozolinch was a decent #1 defenseman (with some shortcomings). Can Kaberle be a #1 in the same regard? Imo no. Even though Kaberle and Ozolinch are both weak defensively, Ozolinch was a much fluid skater, a better goal-scorer, had a great shot and was a better overall offensive defenseman. Right now, Ozolinch is nearing the twilight of his career and Kaberle and Johnsson may both be better than him.
i understand your points on johnsson, but this stuff on ozolinsh..
i like how people use gloss statements like "a better overall offensive defenceman".. what does that mean ???
i think kaberle is a much better playmaker and assist man then ozo, kaberle can make that pass whereas ozo chooses to carry it.. i think ozo being a fluid skater is overemphazied because he carries the puck almost exclusively.. kaberle is a very solid skater with good movement laterally coming through the neutral zone with the puck... kaberle and his shot, well, we leaf fans know the pickle there (he just has to use it)...
an interesting question, kaberle and his talent now, if you put him on that 96 avs team, does kabs do as well ? imo he does
Your sense of value is brutal. Rita and a low 1st rounder for Kaberle is fair. Rita still has some value (maybe a mid 2nd rounder) and a 1st rounder is always a big trading chip. Kaberle can fetch that but not a whole lot more. Delmore was given away for nothing and Kaberle isn't worlds above Delmore in terms of talent. Both are one-dimensional, soft and weak defensively. Is Kaberle worth more than a 1st rounder and Rita? Is he realistically worth that much more than Delmore?
Maybe your sense of reality is skewered after seeing trades like an old and injured 7.5 million dollar Owen Nolan for Alyn MacAuley, 1st rounder and Brad Boyes. Or a near-UFA, near-40 year old Bryan Leetch for Immonen, Kondratiev, 1st and 2nd rounder.
That basically sums up your whole time at HFBoards.com.
Rita still has some value (maybe a mid 2nd rounder)
Absolutely not.
Rita has very little trade value. The only thing you'd get for Rita is another prospect who needs a change of scenery.
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Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
and a 1st rounder is always a big trading chip. Kaberle can fetch that but not a whole lot more. Delmore was given away for nothing and Kaberle isn't worlds above Delmore in terms of talent. Both are one-dimensional, soft and weak defensively. Is Kaberle worth more than a 1st rounder and Rita? Is he realistically worth that much more than Delmore?
Are you kidding? I mean is this a joke? It has to be.
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Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
Maybe your sense of reality is skewered
Yeah maybe. Thank goodness we have someone level headed like you to keep us in line.
Your sense of value is brutal. Rita and a low 1st rounder for Kaberle is fair. .
that's a garbage trade.. edmonton trades a player they don't need and a player that has a high potential not to turn out like he is projected for a player that has played consistently solid hockey in the NHL for several years on a good team
i understand your points on johnsson, but this stuff on ozolinsh..
i like how people use gloss statements like "a better overall offensive defenceman".. what does that mean ???
i think kaberle is a much better playmaker and assist man then ozo, kaberle can make that pass whereas ozo chooses to carry it.. i think ozo being a fluid skater is overemphazied because he carries the puck almost exclusively.. kaberle is a very solid skater with good movement laterally coming through the neutral zone with the puck... kaberle and his shot, well, we leaf fans know the pickle there (he just has to use it)...
an interesting question, kaberle and his talent now, if you put him on that 96 avs team, does kabs do as well ? imo he does
When Ozolinsh entered the league, it was a lot different than it is now. There was a lot more offense.
Back then, defensemen could be all offense and no one cared. Brian Leetch was like that too.
But the game changed and now players have to be responsible at both ends of the ice. Some offensive defensemen like Brian Leetch managed to adapted their game while Ozolinsh never did.
That's why Ozolinsh's stock has dropped. The league changed and he didn't.
the importance of the stevens still reigned back in 96 too imo...
i'm just curious about J=N's comment about ozo as a number one.. is he simply saying ozo can handle minutes by default of being the best dman a bad team has to offer? or is he stating he's an average quality number one defenseman.. b/c if it's the latter i don't agree, as i don't believe their are degrees of number one defencemen.. just a definition discrepancy that's all
So according to you any player who is scratched has lower percieved trade value? Do you know all the circumstances b/h Kaberle's being scratched? Or did u just look in the paper to see healthy scratch and assume it's cause he sucks.
He was a healthy scratch because whatever Quinn had been telling him, he wasn't getting all year. Now as to who Quinn was sending the message, we don't know.
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Sometimes players are benched to get their head back in the game. Kovalchuk has been scratched several times, so of course his trade value now sucks ( lets trade him for Aki Berg). Cam Neely has been scratched. Vincent Lecavalier has been scratched.
Just cause a player is scratched for 1 game, does not give you the right to state his trade value is now perceived lower around the league. You don't know that. You need to know all the facts b/h a player's benching before you come to that conclusion.
There is a big difference between scratching a supposed All Star and future Norris candidate in his sixth (or is it fifth) season and a raw rookie like Thornton or Lecavalier, or a hot dogging 19 year old like Kovalchuk. You do that to young players to send a message/give them a break, you just dont do it to veterans who are one of your main players. Pat Burns and Jacques Demers always maintained that you never scratch one of your core players, unless you dont envision him being around much longer, sort of like sending the GM a message. Of course its up to the GM to decide what to do with the message.
Was Quinn sending JFJ a message by scrathing him late in the season in a highly important game?
If so, then dont you think some of the GMs out there would catch on? Is JFJ strong enough to resist pressure from the real boss (Quinn). After all, all those rade deadline acquisitions by the Leafs (old, older, and oldest) were classic Quinn moves.
If so, then dont you think some of the GMs out there would catch on? Is JFJ strong enough to resist pressure from the real boss (Quinn). After all, all those rade deadline acquisitions by the Leafs (old, older, and oldest) were classic Quinn moves.
If Quinn was the real boss, he would be GM and not just the head coach.
Having spoken some to Larry Tanenbaum, JFJ is the boss, plain and simple.
[QUOTE=AH]He was a healthy scratch because whatever Quinn had been telling him, he wasn't getting all year.
You don't know that. You have no idea why Kaberle was scratched. You can't make that assumption. Only Quinn and Kaberle know why he was scratched. You are just speculating as to what you think. Ask any Leaf fan and they'll tell you his play had grown stagnant and inconsistent, and he needed a shake up.
There is a big difference between scratching a supposed All Star and future Norris candidate in his sixth (or is it fifth) season and a raw rookie like Thornton or Lecavalier, or a hot dogging 19 year old like Kovalchuk. You do that to young players to send a message/give them a break, you just dont do it to veterans who are one of your main players. Pat Burns and Jacques Demers always maintained that you never scratch one of your core players, unless you dont envision him being around much longer, sort of like sending the GM a message. Of course its up to the GM to decide what to do with the message.
Convenient, you left out my best example. Cam Neely. He was scratched by the Bruins in his mid to late prime. A mid to late prime Neely has 10X the trade valueof Kaberle now. Does your argument apply to him? Neely was sat b/c the coach felt the team and Neely needed a shakeup.
Now as to who Quinn was sending the message, we don't know.
Was Quinn sending JFJ a message by scrathing him late in the season in a highly important game?
Obviously not, Kaberle wasn't traded.
If so, then dont you think some of the GMs out there would catch on? Is JFJ strong enough to resist pressure from the real boss (Quinn). After all, all those rade deadline acquisitions by the Leafs (old, older, and oldest) were classic Quinn moves
You don't know that. You have no idea why Kaberle was scratched. You can't make that assumption. Only Quinn and Kaberle know why he was scratched. You are just speculating as to what you think. Ask any Leaf fan and they'll tell you his play had grown stagnant and inconsistent, and he needed a shake up.
Like I am speculating, the rest of us can only speculate as to whay he was scratched. You like to believe he needed a good shakeup, I like to believe other reasons for the benching, which is why I talked about Kaberle's "perceived value" as a reslut of it.
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Convenient, you left out my best example. Cam Neely. He was scratched by the Bruins in his mid to late prime. A mid to late prime Neely has 10X the trade valueof Kaberle now. Does your argument apply to him? Neely was sat b/c the coach felt the team and Neely needed a shakeup.
Now if I remember correctly, it was Kaspar who benched him. At the time Kaspar was on life support. The guy was a copmplete moron. He knew he wasn't going to survive, so what does he do to get attention, scratch Neely. Not a very good example, considering who the coach was.
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Obviously not, Kaberle wasn't traded.
Kaberle wan't traded because March 19th was one week after the trade deadline. In a "normal" off season (without an impending lockout) I would have not been surprised to see Kaberle dealt, especially now that the Leafs are bent on keeping Quinn for two more seasons.
then i'll speculate that kaberle was indeed hurt, and needed a game off to heal against a bruising philly squad so he'd be healthy enough for the stretch and maybe healthy enough to handle philly in a series..
we all know how quinn is with his injury info, maybe kabs was hurt
what were toronto's games following that philly game? who did toronto dress instead of kaberle? was it johansson? (honestly not sure) but if it was calle, why not scratch kaberle, scratch one offensively oriented dman for another...
kaberle had 2nd dman ice-time last year for the leafs. Mcabe was the obvious #1 and leetch became the #2 when he arrived.
The reason why people think kaberle was scratched was that mcabe and leetch played 28 min/gm in the playoffs including all the important or tough minutes. Quinn was afraid to play him. Kaberle had a tough time playing against the skilled sens and the physical flyers. Don Cherry blamed him and antropov for the fall when it was really the fault of the ontario health systems' inability to recreate the fountain of youth.
He really isn't a playoff warrior but can be a usefull guy. The comparison to poti is not that far off. Kaberle's career stats are 443 games, 224 pts. Poti has played the exact same number of games but only has 185 pts. To poti's defense, most of those games were with the small payroll, defensive minded mactavish oilers while kaberle played most of his games with the run and gun quinn leafs. If their teams were reversed, I am sure their stats would be as well.
Kaberle isn't an assest the Leafs have to hold onto, but I think he is tradable without hurting the teams future that much. Its just how Ferguson rates his prospects and whether or not he's willing to take the risk involved with moving Kaberle.
True he would be giving up a defenseman who can score between 40 and 50 points a season, but he has Colaiacovo and Bell on his AHL team both of whom have 20-30 point NHL upsides. Ian White is also a defenseman with very good offensive skill's and I would guess his offensive side is very close to Kaberles. If Ferguson likes the odds of these 3 prospects living up to their upsides and he is thinking about rebuilding this team with young talent, then moving Kaberle is not a big of a loss because he has 3 young, offensively talented defensemen coming up, one of which could produce similiar numbers to Kaberle. Moving him would also open up ice time for those young players and help them develop.
As for value, I think there a several teams out there would be very interested in Kaberle, ones that are on the younger side and looking for an offensive defenseman and/or a player with some NHL potential who can be a leader for their young defensemen. Teams like the Blue Jackets who have a very lack luster defense and a young player in Klesla who would benefit from playing with Kaberle. The Sharks who have a very strong group of defensive defensemen but could use a player like Kaberle to up its offensive output. If the Blues do lose Pronger they will start building their defense around Jackman, a great defensive player but he lacks some offensive punch. The Wild are really lacking an offensive blueliner. I think there are others, but I'll stop there. In return, I don't think it would be unreasonable for the Leafs to get a prospect and a first round pick for Kaberle. For the the trade to be a good one the Leafs would have to get the right prospect, make that draft pick count and get a player with it, and get a little lucky and have Colaiacovo, Bell and White reach their potential as NHL players.
It would be a risky move for Ferguson to make, but if thinks he can pull it all off it could pay off better for the team in the end.
The comparison to poti is not that far off. Kaberle's career stats are 443 games, 224 pts. Poti has played the exact same number of games but only has 185 pts. To poti's defense, most of those games were with the small payroll, defensive minded mactavish oilers while kaberle played most of his games with the run and gun quinn leafs. If their teams were reversed, I am sure their stats would be as well.
First off, comparing Kaberle to Poti?
Secondly, calling the Oilers defensive minded?
Lastly, every team in the league would gladly take a 2.75 million young talented 2nd dman.
