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Visnovsky Drama Part II (MOD WARNING #119)

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Old
01-13-2013, 06:12 AM
  #426
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01-13-2013, 06:37 AM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
He's a living legend over here, that's why.
seems a sub-standard 'legend'. more like a 'pretty fable' instead.

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01-13-2013, 06:37 AM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
You must have skipped reading the previous hundreds of posts. His hometown club is in the midst of a play-off race right now, 11 games left to play in the regular season.

We're moving in circles here, guys. Nothing new will come out of this.
And yet you continue to grace with your presence, continue to try to convince us the isles should stop pressuring Vis.

Clearly, you realize this mess is not over and without other nhl players to hide behind, Vis resolve becomes a big question mark.

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01-13-2013, 06:49 AM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
No, what's ridiculous is your ignoring the fact that the original agreement was never honored. It was not his choice to play elsewhere, so you can't hold that against him now.
We went over that pages ago - blame LA for that aspect of it; the Islanders have nothing to do with his original deal, and there's PLENTY we can hold against him now.

Rather than try to convince me and other honest Islanders fans who simply want to see their team ice the most potent roster possible, maybe there's an HC Slovan/KHL board where you can extoll the non-existent virtues of this jerk without having to rationalize his lack of integrity to us? There's nothing that can be said to change anyone's attitude here, and regardless of concepts of honor, he skipped out on a valid contract.

He's deservedly "persona non grata" here; nothing can be said to change that now, and you'll find a noticeable scarcity of allies with which to rationalize his decision.

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Old
01-13-2013, 07:17 AM
  #430
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Late to the party and don't want to add too much, but as I like the Islanders I think such a situation really sucks.

And I don't think that Faterson's argument is valid. Yes, the NHL locked him out, but Visnovsky knew that he had to return once the NHL season started. He has a contract to honour which brings him several millions. If he brought himself into a situation where he can't just walk away (because of duties or just guilty conscience), then that's his problem.
Being important to the team and involved in the playoff race doesn't count IMO - how many Lockout players could say that? Pretty much everyone of them was important to their teams. Mark Streit too played for his hometown club, he was the best defender on the team and a big reason why Bern is where it is in the standings right now. And he's also a Swiss hockey legend. Still, I don't think he ever doubted a single second that he would return to Long Island.

If he is too careless to recognize that there is a window in the no-trade clause so he can still get traded, then that's his problem. It's the contract he negotiated and signed and therefore wanted.

IMO these are all excuses from Visnovsky. Those guys need to stop being divas. I understand being with your family and all, but You can't always get what you want. They're not getting paid all those dollars so that they can just walk away if they don't care anymore. That's just ungrateful.

But the situation is what it is, and I think the Islanders won't be happier with an unmotivated Visnovsky than without him. Shall he and his childish behaviour stay in Slovakia.

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01-13-2013, 07:32 AM
  #431
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Just out of curiousity, would the Islanders get a compensatory draft pick if this guy gets through with his stunt?

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01-13-2013, 07:37 AM
  #432
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Faterson is taking a position of self, convenience and family over legal duty. She's trying to imagine that the legal duty doesn't exist due to a legal provision that wasn't triggered (but there's a ruling on that provision, like it, agree with it, or not). She's also entitled to her opinion and may be closer to some of the family facts than anyone here. Sounds like Vis' wife has more input in this than most people expect. She could be threatening him with divorce etc. that no one knows about. In short, she could be making life miserable at home for Vis.

We can't compare a classy guy like Streit to Vis. Streit is a captain of his country's team who leads by example even when he's thousands of miles away on foreign turf. He captains a team of younger players from around the world. Clearly, he is trusted to know how to handle himself. Vis has a history of histronics. It's really embarrassing. Many hockey fans feel icky about the Yashin situation that started in Ottawa and landed on the Island. He wanted out, got his way, and what came of it??? He was never a leader, never a guy others could respect- though by many other accounts, a very real gentlemen under less stressful circumstances. I, and I'm sure others, will believe the same about Vis- wrong timing for a guy who doesn't have the right makeup to go along with his skill- i.e. a spoiled brat. Still, if he really doesn't want to come here, he shouldn't come and we shouldn't pine for him. Garth should just press the NHL to make sure that there's punishment for the flouting of the NHL - KHL agreement. Garth can't allow this to go unnoticed because it sets a bad precedent. To me, that'd be the worst thing to come from this.

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Old
01-13-2013, 07:47 AM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Supersonic View Post
Being important to the team and involved in the playoff race doesn't count IMO - how many Lockout players could say that? Pretty much everyone of them was important to their teams. Mark Streit too played for his hometown club, he was the best defender on the team and a big reason why Bern is where it is in the standings right now. And he's also a Swiss hockey legend. Still, I don't think he ever doubted a single second that he would return to Long Island.
For Bern, this is a unique, never-to-be-repeated, milestone season? I don't think so. (And I'm not referring to the lockout, of course.)

No offence, but the Swiss league is a tiny little league in a tiny little country. The only reason NHL stars went there, of course, are the fat Swiss bank accounts. And because playing in the Swiss league amounted to a pleasurable but excellently paid holiday for them.

In contrast, the KHL is a huge enterprise, a league stretching across 2 continents, 7 countries and 10 time zones. The world's second-best league. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersonic View Post
If he is too careless to recognize that there is a window in the no-trade clause so he can still get traded, then that's his problem. It's the contract he negotiated and signed and therefore wanted.
Ah, that's great! So let's apply this type of ruthless thinking to the Islanders' current situation, shall we? Here goes:

If the Islanders are too careless to recognize that there is a window in the absence of a written agreement between the NHL and KHL so Višňovský can escape playing for the Isles, then that's the Islanders' problem. It's the trade they negotiated and signed and therefore wanted in exchange for their 2nd-round draft pick.

"You **** with me, I'll **** with you." That's the ethics you seem to preach, and now this is the result you get.

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01-13-2013, 08:08 AM
  #434
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I haven't followed much of this, but Visnovsky will have to come back if he's got a NHL contract.

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01-13-2013, 08:22 AM
  #435
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
Ah, that's great! So let's apply this type of ruthless thinking to the Islanders' current situation, shall we? Here goes:

If the Islanders are too careless to recognize that there is a window in the absence of a written agreement between the NHL and KHL so Višňovský can escape playing for the Isles, then that's the Islanders' problem. It's the trade they negotiated and signed and therefore wanted in exchange for their 2nd-round draft pick.

"You **** with me, I'll **** with you." That's the ethics you seem to preach, and now this is the result you get.
It's not ruthless, it's the law. Your arguments are all emotion-based. Vis has a contract that he has taken advantage of for several years to the tune of probably $25-30 million. The NHL and KHL have an agreement which the KHL is now apparently ignoring.

The problem with emotion-based arguments is that they lead to chaos. "Hard cases make bad law", as the saying goes. And the basis of civil society and prosperity is "ruthless" laws that establish a set of rules that people have to follow that therefore allow people to conduct business knowing their agreements will be honored and their property rights will be protected. Making up one's own rules, and excuses from written contracts, for convenience sake basically throws all of that out the window and, if practiced on a broad scale, would lead to misery and poverty for all and usually, eventually, some form of totalitarianism.

See what Vis is trying to do?

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01-13-2013, 09:03 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by Paxton Fettel View Post
I haven't followed much of this, but Visnovsky will have to come back if he's got a NHL contract.
Not really. The only way he can be forced to come back is if KHL bans him from playing for Slovan. And as Medvedev (KHL boss) already assured him a number of times, he can stay and play (he even said something like "Call me again if the Islanders make any trouble") as long as he want. I know it sucks for Islanders, I know it's unprofessional, but there is absolutely no way they can force him back if he is backed by the KHL boss.

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Old
01-13-2013, 09:07 AM
  #437
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
"You **** with me, I'll **** with you." That's the ethics you seem to preach, and now this is the result you get.
So you think expecting to honour a contract is unethical? And it's okay do what what one FEELS is right, rather than what was agreed to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
No, what's ridiculous is your ignoring the fact that the original agreement was never honored. It was not his choice to play elsewhere, so you can't hold that against him now.
If the original agreement was breached, there are laws in place to protect him. Visnovsky, his agent, a couple of lawyers should have gone through the rules, breach of contract, etc and asked for a decision. Not sneak away do what he wants. You cannot justify these actions except to say that Visnovsky just wants to snub his nose at the rules, the Islanders, the NHL and do what HE WANTS, it's that simple.

And if I'm the Islanders, I toll his contract without question.

And if I'm the NHL, I absolutely hold this "poaching" against the KHL.

And if Medvedev had any brain, he wouldn't have this battle over Visnovsky. If it were Malkin, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk or Ovechkin, different story.

And if Visnovsky wanted "choice", he should have signed one year deals, not a front loaded four year deal. He's taken advantage of the NHL and the CBA to his favour over his NHL career, made him a rich man. And after the most recent CBA negotiations, where was comfortable playing at home, instead of maybe fighting to include a clause where maybe some NHL players could opt out of contracts, the very union that fought for 119 days to COLLECTIVELY BARGAIN and agree to new rules, Visnovsky wants to break them immediately after.

Ironic. Sad. Worse that anyone can defend this.

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Old
01-13-2013, 09:20 AM
  #438
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
So you think expecting to honour a contract is unethical? And it's okay do what what one FEELS is right, rather than what was agreed to?



If the original agreement was breached, there are laws in place to protect him. Visnovsky, his agent, a couple of lawyers should have gone through the rules, breach of contract, etc and asked for a decision. Not sneak away do what he wants. You cannot justify these actions except to say that Visnovsky just wants to snub his nose at the rules, the Islanders, the NHL and do what HE WANTS, it's that simple.

And if I'm the Islanders, I toll his contract without question.

And if I'm the NHL, I absolutely hold this "poaching" against the KHL.

And if Medvedev had any brain, he wouldn't have this battle over Visnovsky. If it were Malkin, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk or Ovechkin, different story.

And if Visnovsky wanted "choice", he should have signed one year deals, not a front loaded four year deal. He's taken advantage of the NHL and the CBA to his favour over his NHL career, made him a rich man. And after the most recent CBA negotiations, where was comfortable playing at home, instead of maybe fighting to include a clause where maybe some NHL players could opt out of contracts, the very union that fought for 119 days to COLLECTIVELY BARGAIN and agree to new rules, Visnovsky wants to break them immediately after.

Ironic. Sad. Worse that anyone can defend this.
Maybe that's his plan. Set a precedent with a small name like Vis, then use that precedent later to poach bigger names.

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01-13-2013, 09:39 AM
  #439
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Originally Posted by ebis View Post
Maybe that's his plan. Set a , then use that precedent later to poach bigger names.
Based on the reports from some returning players, that the KHL teams put huge offers and pressure on them to stay, I doubt Vis was his plan A.

I would guess that Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk and Malkin were his Plan A.

Just as the KHL will want to set a precedent using Vis, the NHL will want to avoid having that precedent set.

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Old
01-13-2013, 10:08 AM
  #440
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
No, what's ridiculous is your ignoring the fact that the original agreement was never honored. It was not his choice to play elsewhere, so you can't hold that against him now.
If he had a valid no-trade, he would have used it. He probably could have gotten it but he chose to make more money instead. He knew when he signed the contract that there was a possibility he would be traded at some point.

You really come off as a Visnovsky fanboy by playing this "victim" card when every single thing that has happened to Vis was brought on by himself. "Backstabbed"... funny. You realize players get traded all the time, right? Yet they actually show up for their new teams. Crazy concept, I know.

I'll end with this... it's four months. Four months and he's "free" to do and go where he wants. He's basically making a mountain out of a molehill for his own selfish reasons. The relationship between the KHL and NHL right now is a powder keg, and Visnovsky is the match. I highly doubt the KHL is going to allow the 37-year old Visnovsky to stay and completely burn bridges with the NHL when they could just wait four months and have this same player re-enter their hockey league.

Had Kovalchuk stayed, it would have been one thing. Now that he's coming back, does the KHL really want to go "all-in" on the 37 year old, free-agent-to-be in 4-months, non-Russian Lubomir Visnovsky??? I doubt it.

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01-13-2013, 11:06 AM
  #441
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From Bob Mckenzie
Quote:
Lubomir Visnovsky, who's under contract to NYI but wants to play in KHL, has til 10 am ET tomorrow to report to NYI or he'll be suspended.
https://twitter.com/TSNBobMcKenzie/s...97862645731328
Quote:
If KHL enforces existing NHL-KHL pact on honoring contracts, Visnovsky likely to return to NYI but key is KHL ruling him ineligible.
https://twitter.com/TSNBobMcKenzie/s...97862645731328

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01-13-2013, 11:09 AM
  #442
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Suspended by the NHL or the Islanders?

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Old
01-13-2013, 11:14 AM
  #443
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I am a fan of Slovan Bratislava, and as much as I would love Lubo to stay, I'm completely on the Isle's side of things. Lubo is being emotional and certainly not setting the right example. While I will cheer for him in every game he plays for us, as much as we need him, he should follow contracts, READ them, and not whine over the fact that he got screwed before legally. Nevertheless I have heard that there are 3 lawyer agencies willing to put up a fight for Lubo if there'll be a need and are confident that they could win, in that case I'll say 'Kudos, Lubo had the legal edge," but as it looks now, he is just being stubborn and emotional.

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01-13-2013, 11:52 AM
  #444
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
You realize players get traded all the time, right?
"Traded all the time" with no-trade clauses signed, twice against their will in 4 years? I don't think so. Višňovský must be the world record holder in that sad department.

I don't see why Višňovský should not be allowed to step away fom his contract with the NHL. His contract, in reality, is with the NHL, not with the Islanders. He seems to have lost interest in the NHL. The NHL should award the Isles a compensatory 2nd-round draft pick, and let's all move on.

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01-13-2013, 12:01 PM
  #445
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
I don't see why Višňovský should not be allowed to step away fom his contract with the NHL. His contract, in reality, is with the NHL, not with the Islanders. He seems to have lost interest in the NHL. The NHL should award the Isles a compensatory 2nd-round draft pick, and let's all move on.
Alright, sounds good, as long as Lubo is suspended from Slovan.

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01-13-2013, 12:03 PM
  #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
"Traded all the time" with no-trade clauses signed, twice against their will in 4 years? I don't think so. Višňovský must be the world record holder in that sad department.

I don't see why Višňovský should not be allowed to step away fom his contract with the NHL. His contract, in reality, is with the NHL, not with the Islanders. He seems to have lost interest in the NHL. The NHL should award the Isles a compensatory 2nd-round draft pick, and let's all move on.
But the trade was legal. All the trades were legal. Not very nice....traded hours before the no trade kicked in, but legal.

So because one does not like the contract being held and executed as one signed it, one can step away from the contract without consequence because a, "no fair!" stance has been taken?

The precedent here would be enormous!

Why, every crying, pouting five year old would have legal grounds to invalidate a, "time out" and get to watch TV! It would be a huge blow to parenting!

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Old
01-13-2013, 12:04 PM
  #447
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Alright, sounds good, as long as Lubo is suspended from Slovan.
Why should he be suspended? The KHL and the NHL are completely unrelated. That's like saying if you decide to leave your current employer, you're not allowed to find a new job.

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01-13-2013, 12:05 PM
  #448
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Originally Posted by tobu View Post
I am a fan of Slovan Bratislava, and as much as I would love Lubo to stay, I'm completely on the Isle's side of things. Lubo is being emotional and certainly not setting the right example. While I will cheer for him in every game he plays for us, as much as we need him, he should follow contracts, READ them, and not whine over the fact that he got screwed before legally. Nevertheless I have heard that there are 3 lawyer agencies willing to put up a fight for Lubo if there'll be a need and are confident that they could win, in that case I'll say 'Kudos, Lubo had the legal edge," but as it looks now, he is just being stubborn and emotional.


We need to avoid situations like in football (soccer) where players just whine and sulk until they get their moves to other, bigger clubs. The NHL and KHL must respect each others contracts otherwise it'll render all contracts virtually useless as player can then move back and forth at will and at the expense of clubs

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01-13-2013, 12:10 PM
  #449
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
But the trade was legal. All the trades were legal. Not very nice....traded hours before the no trade kicked in, but legal.
So is Višňovský's playing in the KHL legal, by all appearances. KHL boss Medvedev told him there is no written agreement between the KHL and NHL on this. Legal, legal, legal. If all you care about is what's legal, and if you approve of exploiting every possible legal loophole, you're likely to lose here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
So because one does not like the contract being held and executed as one signed it, one can step away from the contract without consequence because a, "no fair!" stance has been taken?
What do you mean by "without consequence"? He gave up his salary of many hundreds of thousands of $$$ that now remain in the Islanders' coffers. All fair and square.

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01-13-2013, 12:11 PM
  #450
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
But the trade was legal. All the trades were legal. Not very nice....traded hours before the no trade kicked in, but legal.
Yes, that is right. I do not know him personally and I have absolutely no real idea what he might be thinking, but-

If I were him in the current situation, I would use the same weapons as the NHL. Legal? Ok, looking for legal ways how to avoid NHL, and stay and play in KHL.

And one more thing to that NTC: how is it possible that a NTC is voided from a contract? He was not satisfied in EDM and asked for trade. Does such a request void something signed beforehand? If so, that is MAJOR LEAGUE B.S. ...

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