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Where would CIS football fit in Division II football?

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05-19-2013, 09:45 AM
  #1
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Where would CIS football fit in Division II football?

Now that we know that CIS teams are about Division II-level (at least for bottom-feeders, as evidenced by Simon Fraser's Clansmen) perhaps you have any idea as to where the four CIS conferences fit inside Division II or Division III.

IMO I doubt an entire conference would be at FCS level, although McMaster Marauders and Laval Red-and-Gold (both are Vanier Cup contenders) can likely both play FCS-level Division I, albeit more like Ivy League, given CIS' academic demands.

FYI, RSEQ, OUA, CIS-West and AUS are the four football conferences in CIS.

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05-19-2013, 07:27 PM
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I know a couple guys that play dII and a few that play for big CIS programs and there's no real trend honestly some guys who aren't quite as talented got dII scholarships and some guys who can really ball stay in canada

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05-21-2013, 10:42 AM
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Then again, Plesius, who was a redshirt at Baylor (a FBS school), became not only a starter, but also a star player, on the 2010 Vanier Cup-winning Laval squad.

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05-23-2013, 10:02 PM
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I would think that Laval would not be too out of place if they enter division one.

However. It would be a challenge for the team to adjust to an American-sized football field, and the rule changes.

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05-23-2013, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
I would think that Laval would not be too out of place if they enter division one.

However. It would be a challenge for the team to adjust to an American-sized football field, and the rule changes.
I hope you mean FCS instead of FBS, major world of difference in some of the conferences between the two. There are some FCS conferences they'd fit in nicely and be quite competitive more often then not. FBS? Not seeing it, even if they were the in Island of Misfit Toys that is the Big East or in the MAC they'd really struggle to be competitive.

That's not to say that they can't beat some of the FBS boys, we see it every year, even in some rather major upsets (JMU over Va Tech most recently).

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06-01-2013, 03:38 PM
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Simon Fraser is starting to come around now. Posted 5-6 overall record last year, 4-6 in conference. First couple of years were pretty ugly. Had they been a more competitive CIS team they probably would have started off better. Beating Humboltd State was pretty impressive. I think the goal this year will be to finish .500 and close the gap in their losses to Central Washington. If my memory serves me right, they were granted full membership status in the NCAA so they can award the same # of scholarships as other schools.

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06-01-2013, 08:09 PM
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CIS teams would be lucky to win a single game in even the worst FBS conference.

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06-01-2013, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
CIS teams would be lucky to win a single game in even the worst FBS conference.
One of the worst CIS teams in Simon Fraser has been about .500 in Div II. CIS isn't so bad as you think, IMO.

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06-01-2013, 08:38 PM
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Fbs != d2

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06-01-2013, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Fbs != d2
I realize that. But a team that went 3 years without a win (0-22-2) in CIS West (not a stronger CIS division in general) went .500 in division 2. I think a top program in CIS would do better than "lucky to win a game" in div 1.

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06-02-2013, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I realize that. But a team that went 3 years without a win (0-22-2) in CIS West (not a stronger CIS division in general) went .500 in division 2. I think a top program in CIS would do better than "lucky to win a game" in div 1.
They've made the turn around with the same head coach too. Their recruiting as become a lot better, and given the scholarships they're able to attract players they wouldn't have been able to attract when they were CIS.

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06-03-2013, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Rocko604 View Post
They've made the turn around with the same head coach too. Their recruiting as become a lot better, and given the scholarships they're able to attract players they wouldn't have been able to attract when they were CIS.
That sort of makes sense but hasnt it only been 3 years since they were accepted, basically their first commits would have been just getting in the lineup if they didn't redshirt which is unlikely.

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06-03-2013, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I realize that. But a team that went 3 years without a win (0-22-2) in CIS West (not a stronger CIS division in general) went .500 in division 2. I think a top program in CIS would do better than "lucky to win a game" in div 1.
Bad FCS teams (in scholarship conferences) tend to blow out good D2 schools.

Things get thrown out the window with the little quirks at the bottom of the FCS, though...a few of the HBCUs have less funding than high school teams and the Pioneer League and Ivy Leagues don't have academic scholarships...but most teams in those conferences still easily handle D2 competition, but hey...North Dakota State would trounce South Alabama (which is somehow an FBS program).


Against a legitimate FCS schedule...I'd expect a middling D2 program to lose every game by 20+. Idaho State does that and they have 65 scholarships. The best D2 programs would probably win 2 or 3 if they played a Big Sky Conference schedule. The best of the CIS could carve themselves a Patriot League-type niche, though, where the OOC schedule is mostly D2 schools.

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06-05-2013, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko604 View Post
They've made the turn around with the same head coach too. Their recruiting as become a lot better, and given the scholarships they're able to attract players they wouldn't have been able to attract when they were CIS.
At least they made good use of scholarships...

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06-12-2013, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Fbs != d2
FBS = Division I-A
FCS = Division I-AA.
then there's Division II

The issue with CIS is there's little depth so there's a very huge gap in team performance. Laval is the best-ran and most well-funded team in Canada, and I imagine if they played a home-and-home with say Maine or New Hampshire, they'd give a good account of themselves if not win a game. Colleges like Toronto or St. Francis Xavier: absolutely horrible.

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Simon Fraser is starting to come around now. Posted 5-6 overall record last year, 4-6 in conference. First couple of years were pretty ugly. Had they been a more competitive CIS team they probably would have started off better. Beating Humboltd State was pretty impressive. I think the goal this year will be to finish .500 and close the gap in their losses to Central Washington. If my memory serves me right, they were granted full membership status in the NCAA so they can award the same # of scholarships as other schools.
http://jimmullinnow.blogspot.com/#!/...hires-new.html

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Long-time SFU coach Dino Geremia has been released from his defensive coordinator duties at Simon Fraser University. It was the SFU grad's second go-round on the hill, and quite frankly he deserves better. I've been told that head coach Dave Johnson wants to "go American" with his paid coaching staff, and Geremia's passport didn't fit the bill. This will not be a popular decision in the local football community, as Geremia has been a tireless worker not just for the Clan but also for Football BC in various capacities.

The move reaffirms what many - including myself - insisted would happen to SFU in their transition to Division II. The shift to Great Northwest Athletic Conference has led to more opportunities for American coaches and players and a lower profile for Canadians.

The first position to fall was the quarterback spot, as Johnson went cross border shopping in Seattle for current starter Trey Wheeler. His backup is Oregonian Reece Hack. Both Ryan Schwartz (Alberta) and Greg Bowcott (Langley Rams/UBC) saw the writing on the wall and left the hill looking for opportunity to develop elsewhere. But it doesn't stop there. In all, 18 players recruited from Washington, Oregon and California were on last year's roster and you can expect that to increase in 2013.

Prominent BC players on the roster like Keynan Parker and Lemar Durant would seem to have the stamp of approval since they are D1 transfers.

The school and the Clan alumni have made the choice to funnel precious dollars into international tuition for these players which they are free to do. It's up to Canadian recruits to see how they fit into a diminishing role within the new reality at Simon Fraser.

As predicted when SFU was being shown the door by the Canada West and CIS, the original idea of founding coach/athletic director Lorne Davies is being flipped on its ear in regard to football.

In 1965 Davies quite rightly wanted to put a halt to the siphoning of Canadian talent southward via scholarships, in an era where CIAU schools offered no financial aid at all. His motto was, "Canadian education with American competition". It was so successful that SFU was a national destination for top talent and became an assembly line to stock the rosters of CFL teams. When Canadian schools started to phase in financial support for student athletes SFU's dominance on the recruiting landscape began to fade. When they used the CIS as a 'port in a storm' when there was no US competition available, it was clear that the upper echelon of Canadian teams had passed them in terms of developing players.

In an effort to revive the good old days, SFU launched themselves back into American waters with the ethos of the manifest of the 1960's. Heading into 2013 Davies' motto can be rewritten. SFU Football is for "American students against American competition, with a Canadian education and a local supporting cast along for the ride".
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06-12-2013, 09:00 PM
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Actually, the fork in Chinese in the chart above should be split in two: one sub-fork leading to UBC Thunderbirds, another sub-fork leading to U Toronto Varsity Blues.

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06-13-2013, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Now that we know that CIS teams are about Division II-level (at least for bottom-feeders, as evidenced by Simon Fraser's Clansmen) perhaps you have any idea as to where the four CIS conferences fit inside Division II or Division III.

IMO I doubt an entire conference would be at FCS level, although McMaster Marauders and Laval Red-and-Gold (both are Vanier Cup contenders) can likely both play FCS-level Division I, albeit more like Ivy League, given CIS' academic demands.

FYI, RSEQ, OUA, CIS-West and AUS are the four football conferences in CIS.
I would believe they are more Division lll caliber.

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06-20-2013, 08:21 AM
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Hunter Gathers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I realize that. But a team that went 3 years without a win (0-22-2) in CIS West (not a stronger CIS division in general) went .500 in division 2. I think a top program in CIS would do better than "lucky to win a game" in div 1.
They would be lucky to win a game in the FBS. I stand by that. Against even some of the worst teams. The FBS is on another level from where CIS teams play. The teams would be lucky to win a game in the FCS, for God's sake.

In re FBS: We are talking luck in that every player on the FBS team gets injured.

In re FCS: We are talking about most players being injured. Or playing an Ivy.

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06-21-2013, 09:26 AM
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I don't think they would be totally out of place in D2, hence the title.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
They would be lucky to win a game in the FBS. I stand by that. Against even some of the worst teams. The FBS is on another level from where CIS teams play. The teams would be lucky to win a game in the FCS, for God's sake.

In re FBS: We are talking luck in that every player on the FBS team gets injured.

In re FCS: We are talking about most players being injured. Or playing an Ivy.
The Ivy League champions (whoever that is) routinely find themselves in the top 25 of the FCS. So you'd rather look at Columbia or Yale for teams Laval can actually win against.

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06-21-2013, 09:43 AM
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I'd say they can compete in Div II level.

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