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01-10-2013, 12:50 AM
  #201
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in all seriousness, I think if the Jackets ownership had any brains they'd fire Howson and hire Burke ASAP. In a city without the pressure to win now that Toronto has, Burke could take his time and build a team the right way.

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01-10-2013, 01:00 AM
  #202
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in all seriousness, I think if the Jackets ownership had any brains they'd fire Howson and hire Burke ASAP. In a city without the pressure to win now that Toronto has, Burke could take his time and build a team the right way.
Oh... Totally agreed! Burke would be a perfect fit for that team.

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01-10-2013, 01:03 AM
  #203
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in all seriousness, I think if the Jackets ownership had any brains they'd fire Howson and hire Burke ASAP. In a city without the pressure to win now that Toronto has, Burke could take his time and build a team the right way.
Interesting but Burke is still a pretty big name. His Toronto tenure has taken him down a peg but I think he could do better than going to neophyte organization like the Blue Jackets. That isn't a very appealing GM job as there are budget limitations and players don't come there either. I think he'll get another shot but would be able to choose a better situation than Columbus.

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01-10-2013, 02:00 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by robert terwilliger View Post
burke's time in toronto in one picture.

go!



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01-10-2013, 07:21 AM
  #205
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Classic, Burke can blame one person, Burke, but....as candid as he is, as much as I listen to many who have interview him say they like the guy, they like his honesty etc...truth is, if he were the GM in most other cities, he would have been shown the door long before now.

I`ve been reading alot of opinions on the Leaf board about this move, and some here who claim that he`s done a good job of stockpiling picks, he has, in fact, made that team better. I ask really??

While he has put some inventory in the shelves, why is it some here look at the prospect cupboard in Toronto and say he did a good job yet when it comes to our own prospects, we`ll often offer the " he hasn`t done a thing yet". Truth is, Burke`s business approach, his evaluation of which players would best fit into his model for success was a complete and utter joke. He continually made moves that hurt and weakened that franchise more than it helped IMO.

It wasn`t until the last year or so (about a year late, maybe 2) when he seemed to finally admit (although not verbally) that his model wasn`t working and rebuild via draft picks/prospects began to occur.

His biggest mistake was Kessel, not because he overvalued the on ice personel that he believed he had assembled so much so that he thought the playoffs were a given, but the fact that he went out, with absolutely not one centerman close to being able to compliment a Kessel (Sorry, Bozak is a nice player, but that`s it) and THAT, was his biggest problem and he`s tried to fill that role with the Connelly`s of the league and, as we have seen, it`s been a joke.

I`m not sure that Burke himself, and his staff shouldn`t have all been dismissed, they are all part of the decision process on player personel no?? Whomever is to blame, the on ice product hasn`t come close to matching anything like the attitude Burke continuously spewed to the media that it would be, HIS signings/trades have been, pretty ugly, and his personality and ability to "get along" showed it`s obviously an issue with the new ownership.

You can admire his candor, we can admire that Burke stands by his beliefs, what I don`t get are far too many giving him credit for a job...............done, if he were the Bruin GM and this were the results??? He`d have been gone a long time ago, but MLSE`s way of handling this, although hardly surprising with their track record, was just plain ugly.

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01-10-2013, 07:28 AM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ODAAT View Post
Classic, Burke can blame one person, Burke, but....as candid as he is, as much as I listen to many who have interview him say they like the guy, they like his honesty etc...truth is, if he were the GM in most other cities, he would have been shown the door long before now.

I`ve been reading alot of opinions on the Leaf board about this move, and some here who claim that he`s done a good job of stockpiling picks, he has, in fact, made that team better. I ask really??

While he has put some inventory in the shelves, why is it some here look at the prospect cupboard in Toronto and say he did a good job yet when it comes to our own prospects, we`ll often offer the " he hasn`t done a thing yet". Truth is, Burke`s business approach, his evaluation of which players would best fit into his model for success was a complete and utter joke. He continually made moves that hurt and weakened that franchise more than it helped IMO.

It wasn`t until the last year or so (about a year late, maybe 2) when he seemed to finally admit (although not verbally) that his model wasn`t working and rebuild via draft picks/prospects began to occur.

His biggest mistake was Kessel, not because he overvalued the on ice personel that he believed he had assembled so much so that he thought the playoffs were a given, but the fact that he went out, with absolutely not one centerman close to being able to compliment a Kessel (Sorry, Bozak is a nice player, but that`s it) and THAT, was his biggest problem and he`s tried to fill that role with the Connelly`s of the league and, as we have seen, it`s been a joke.

I`m not sure that Burke himself, and his staff shouldn`t have all been dismissed, they are all part of the decision process on player personel no?? Whomever is to blame, the on ice product hasn`t come close to matching anything like the attitude Burke continuously spewed to the media that it would be, HIS signings/trades have been, pretty ugly, and his personality and ability to "get along" showed it`s obviously an issue with the new ownership.

You can admire his candor, we can admire that Burke stands by his beliefs, what I don`t get are far too many giving him credit for a job...............done, if he were the Bruin GM and this were the results??? He`d have been gone a long time ago, but MLSE`s way of handling this, although hardly surprising with their track record, was just plain ugly.
You have to admit that the Leafs cupboard was bare when Burke took over, and it was. He has some good prospects in the A and in Juniors etc. How they develop, well time will tell but it's a major improvement on what JFJ had when he left the Leafs. Not to mention, several reputable reports have the Leafs prospects ranked higher than the Bruins.

As for the trades, what was the last trade that Burke consummated? Nonis has done most the the negotiating when it comes to trades and contracts since he's been AGM of the Leafs, not Burke.

Burke's a great guy IMO and would love to sit and pick his brain for an entire day and talk hockey rather then a quick chat here or there when bumping into him in an arena.

Not saying this wasn't hockey related, because it did factor in - but there's more to this than meets the eye.

Forgot to add this Andrew: MLSE is under new ownership. That new ownership doesn't have a track record when it comes to hockey - yet ? But it is Bell and Rogers

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01-10-2013, 07:34 AM
  #207
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Andrew - as always - I think you make very valid points.

But it's been a long time, consistently, through many GMs that come into Toronto and attempt to do too much - and, to me, that says that the people higher above Burke, the city, and the media are piling on the pressure to win and to win now.

That's not excusing him - I agree, his time was up.

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01-10-2013, 07:43 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
You have to admit that the Leafs cupboard was bare when Burke took over, and it was. He has some good prospects in the A and in Juniors etc. How they develop, well time will tell but it's a major improvement on what JFJ had when he left the Leafs. Not to mention, several reputable reports have the Leafs prospects ranked higher than the Bruins.

As for the trades, what was the last trade that Burke consummated? Nonis has done most the the negotiating when it comes to trades and contracts since he's been AGM of the Leafs, not Burke.

Burke's a great guy IMO and would love to sit and pick his brain for an entire day and talk hockey rather then a quick chat here or there when bumping into him in an arena.

Not saying this wasn't hockey related, because it did factor in - but there's more to this than meets the eye.

Forgot to add this Andrew: MLSE is under new ownership. That new ownership doesn't have a track record when it comes to hockey - yet ? But it is Bell and Rogers
Thx Dom, I have mentioned in posts Leaf related in the past that I kept hearing Nonis was the one who dotted the final I`s and crossed the last T`s which is baffling to me to a degree. I wonder then, what was Burke`s job?? Did he not have a say or any leverage?? Truth is, IMO, that organization is a mess, and yes, the cupboard of prospects was so bare when he took over but I am of the belief, outside of a few incredibly poor GM`s, it wouldn`t have been too difficult to recognize all that empty space.

I`ve always appreciated Burke`s candor, what I have long struggled with when it came/comes to Burke is that there are many who put him right up there among the best out there and THAT, for this fan is headshaking. I also never understood how he continually stood in front of camera`s trying to sell Filet Mignon on the garbage can routine?? I suppose that`s kind of his job but....

Either way, although I am sure Burke isn`t to blame for all that ails the Leafs, he was hired to do a job and it`s my opinion that the job wasn`t just to build a prospect pool regardless of Nonis having a big influence or not. MLSE, under Bell/Rogers had many tongues wagging as any new ownership does, about what, if any changes were coming, well, this was a biggie, my guess, they just wanted to try and compete with all those big signings the Jays made in the offseason

I too would wager to sit with Burke and bend his ear or just sit and listen would be fascinating, I guess I`m just not as nearly convinced as others that his recognition for what makes teams successful these days is acute enough

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01-10-2013, 07:47 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by flannelman View Post
Andrew - as always - I think you make very valid points.

But it's been a long time, consistently, through many GMs that come into Toronto and attempt to do too much - and, to me, that says that the people higher above Burke, the city, and the media are piling on the pressure to win and to win now.

That's not excusing him - I agree, his time was up.
I suppose we can all sit in front of our keyboards and thank our lucky stars that the organization we root for, from the President down, seem to have an owner (can`t believe I`m saying this) who has allowed them to make the hockey decisions without too much interference and that this team has crawled it`s way out of the laughable state it was in prior to Chia and Cam amongst others jumping on board

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01-10-2013, 08:03 AM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ODAAT View Post
Thx Dom, I have mentioned in posts Leaf related in the past that I kept hearing Nonis was the one who dotted the final I`s and crossed the last T`s which is baffling to me to a degree. I wonder then, what was Burke`s job?? Did he not have a say or any leverage?? Truth is, IMO, that organization is a mess, and yes, the cupboard of prospects was so bare when he took over but I am of the belief, outside of a few incredibly poor GM`s, it wouldn`t have been too difficult to recognize all that empty space.

I`ve always appreciated Burke`s candor, what I have long struggled with when it came/comes to Burke is that there are many who put him right up there among the best out there and THAT, for this fan is headshaking. I also never understood how he continually stood in front of camera`s trying to sell Filet Mignon on the garbage can routine?? I suppose that`s kind of his job but....

Either way, although I am sure Burke isn`t to blame for all that ails the Leafs, he was hired to do a job and it`s my opinion that the job wasn`t just to build a prospect pool regardless of Nonis having a big influence or not. MLSE, under Bell/Rogers had many tongues wagging as any new ownership does, about what, if any changes were coming, well, this was a biggie, my guess, they just wanted to try and compete with all those big signings the Jays made in the offseason

I too would wager to sit with Burke and bend his ear or just sit and listen would be fascinating, I guess I`m just not as nearly convinced as others that his recognition for what makes teams successful these days is acute enough
Funny you mention the Jays - they are owned by Rogers lol. But no salary cap in baseball.

Burke has not been the same since tragedy struck his family. He did his duties as president of the club and left the managerial duties to Nonis (for the most part). Obviously Burke had to sign off on it, but the groundwork was mostly Nonis.

Burke got heavily involved in charities and it was almost a daily routine for him to go out and do something for/with them.

That said, I'm not sure he can get his thoughts back on the game 100% if he were ever to take another GM job. Like I said, there's more than just the hockey issue here and I hope that if his head isn't into it, he doesn't try it again.

Do I think he's a bad GM? No. Things got way to deep for him both professionally and personally.

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01-10-2013, 08:12 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
Funny you mention the Jays - they are owned by Rogers lol. But no salary cap in baseball.

Burke has not been the same since tragedy struck his family. He did his duties as president of the club and left the managerial duties to Nonis (for the most part). Obviously Burke had to sign off on it, but the groundwork was mostly Nonis.

Burke got heavily involved in charities and it was almost a daily routine for him to go out and do something for/with them.

That said, I'm not sure he can get his thoughts back on the game 100% if he were ever to take another GM job. Like I said, there's more than just the hockey issue here and I hope that if his head isn't into it, he doesn't try it again.

Do I think he's a bad GM? No. Things got way to deep for him both professionally and personally.
Consistently saw him appearing at various charities as you mentioned, heard interviews with him at those functions and I often wondered if he has/had a bit of that "Don Cherry" thing going. On TV or in his position, present himself in one way, off the ice, a different story.

I`ll not be able to put myself in his shoes regarding the loss of his son, but I have to think that your right, just how does one rebound from such a tragedy?

I think it was you that suggested he`d be an interesting Commish??? That could be fun for him? Or a continous nightmare

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01-10-2013, 08:23 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by ODAAT View Post
Classic, Burke can blame one person, Burke, but....as candid as he is, as much as I listen to many who have interview him say they like the guy, they like his honesty etc...truth is, if he were the GM in most other cities, he would have been shown the door long before now.

I`ve been reading alot of opinions on the Leaf board about this move, and some here who claim that he`s done a good job of stockpiling picks, he has, in fact, made that team better. I ask really??

While he has put some inventory in the shelves, why is it some here look at the prospect cupboard in Toronto and say he did a good job yet when it comes to our own prospects, we`ll often offer the " he hasn`t done a thing yet". Truth is, Burke`s business approach, his evaluation of which players would best fit into his model for success was a complete and utter joke. He continually made moves that hurt and weakened that franchise more than it helped IMO.

It wasn`t until the last year or so (about a year late, maybe 2) when he seemed to finally admit (although not verbally) that his model wasn`t working and rebuild via draft picks/prospects began to occur.

His biggest mistake was Kessel, not because he overvalued the on ice personel that he believed he had assembled so much so that he thought the playoffs were a given, but the fact that he went out, with absolutely not one centerman close to being able to compliment a Kessel (Sorry, Bozak is a nice player, but that`s it) and THAT, was his biggest problem and he`s tried to fill that role with the Connelly`s of the league and, as we have seen, it`s been a joke.

I`m not sure that Burke himself, and his staff shouldn`t have all been dismissed, they are all part of the decision process on player personel no?? Whomever is to blame, the on ice product hasn`t come close to matching anything like the attitude Burke continuously spewed to the media that it would be, HIS signings/trades have been, pretty ugly, and his personality and ability to "get along" showed it`s obviously an issue with the new ownership.

You can admire his candor, we can admire that Burke stands by his beliefs, what I don`t get are far too many giving him credit for a job...............done, if he were the Bruin GM and this were the results??? He`d have been gone a long time ago, but MLSE`s way of handling this, although hardly surprising with their track record, was just plain ugly.
Now what if toronto wins a cup in the next 5 year with the picks he stockpiled and with the phil the thrill... He'll look a tad bit better wont he? haha. But i agree.. i like him as an interview. I don't want him near the bruins.

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01-10-2013, 08:25 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by ODAAT View Post
Consistently saw him appearing at various charities as you mentioned, heard interviews with him at those functions and I often wondered if he has/had a bit of that "Don Cherry" thing going. On TV or in his position, present himself in one way, off the ice, a different story.

I`ll not be able to put myself in his shoes regarding the loss of his son, but I have to think that your right, just how does one rebound from such a tragedy?

I think it was you that suggested he`d be an interesting Commish??? That could be fun for him? Or a continous nightmare
Perhaps not commish at this point in time, but there's been some talk he might end up in the NHL administration. Which IMHO would probably be good for both Burke and the NHL.

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01-10-2013, 08:33 AM
  #214
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You have to admit that the Leafs cupboard was bare when Burke took over, and it was. He has some good prospects in the A and in Juniors etc. How they develop, well time will tell but it's a major improvement on what JFJ had when he left the Leafs. Not to mention, several reputable reports have the Leafs prospects ranked higher than the Bruins.

As for the trades, what was the last trade that Burke consummated? Nonis has done most the the negotiating when it comes to trades and contracts since he's been AGM of the Leafs, not Burke.

Burke's a great guy IMO and would love to sit and pick his brain for an entire day and talk hockey rather then a quick chat here or there when bumping into him in an arena.

Not saying this wasn't hockey related, because it did factor in - but there's more to this than meets the eye.

Forgot to add this Andrew: MLSE is under new ownership. That new ownership doesn't have a track record when it comes to hockey - yet ? But it is Bell and Rogers
OOG - I like Burke myself in the sense that he truly seems to love the game, and he truly seems to live his job. He seems like the kind of guy who really does want to do well, and that's a credit to him. Plus he's very entertaining.

This argument though that he has the organization in a better spot than when he found it is a bit disingenuous the more I think about it. When a team finishes as low as Toronto has during his tenure, OF COURSE they're going to have some interesting prospects coming into the organization because they're not only drafting higher, but able to dump older bodies at the deadlines. So end of the day, if he did nothing at all to his team each year and just picked the highest ranked kid on the board each season, would he be any worse off than he is today? Fact is, maybe even better (!) when you consider how badly he got bent over by Chiarelli. So really, I have to give him a failing grade in Toronto.

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01-10-2013, 08:45 AM
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haven't read thru all this yet but I am a strong Burke supporter and think he would have turned them around within the next year or two- bad move

reading the Leafs board it reminds me so much of the pre Red Sox and Patriots current ownership

I feel bad for that franchise because it appears there are some issues

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01-10-2013, 08:49 AM
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haven't read thru all this yet but I am a strong Burke supporter and think he would have turned them around within the next year or two- bad move
Dan, they run out of secretaries.

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01-10-2013, 08:50 AM
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haven't read thru all this yet but I am a strong Burke supporter and think he would have turned them around within the next year or two- bad move

reading the Leafs board it reminds me so much of the pre Red Sox and Patriots current ownership

I feel bad for that franchise because it appears there are some issues
Issues @ MLSE???? Oh please, state your sources

I just can`t believe that to be true, not the MLSE I read about

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01-10-2013, 08:52 AM
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Dan, they run out of secretaries.
hah, true

I hope he ends up somewhere- I used to see him in Boston alot when he was with the Ducks at the games. The joke was he had a part of Chia's office....once he was in Toronto that changed, but hopefully he'll be around here

We ran into him in the playoffs downstairs and had a chat- also, he was at the Bob Ryan retirement at Four's this Fall which I thought was pretty interesting and amazing (btw- I was with Mike From Everett that night and if you read this Mike, you got a game with me, on me? Are you still going or protesting- you dont have to cheer)

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01-10-2013, 09:40 AM
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As far as scapegoats go, Burk is legit. The Toronto faithful will still be using him as an excuse 10 yrs from now, and will probably not be out of line.

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01-10-2013, 09:49 AM
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Business is business...... but Burke is one of the good one's in my book:

1) Answers questions directly.
2) Is an amazingly entertaining interview.
3) Anecdotal stories from many suggest he's a good guy to chat with -- a guy who'll spend time with you.
4) A big, brusk, "tough" guy that maybe surprised a few of people by so publicly supporting his gay son with unwavering, unconditional love (a father who does that is top notch in my book).

Finally, like many of us here I love my son and daughter more than I can express. Any parent that loses a child and manages to keep it even remotely together gets major kudos from me. I hope he lands on his feet doing whatever he would like to be doing.

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01-10-2013, 10:01 AM
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just read on boston.com Burke stays on as a "senior advisor." What is that all about??

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01-10-2013, 10:20 AM
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just read on boston.com Burke stays on as a "senior advisor." What is that all about??
Senior Advisor = We'll keep paying you, just stay out of our way.

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01-10-2013, 11:32 AM
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Not surprised that Burke was fired, while the leafs have improved somewhat,not making the playoffs for four years and getting decent draft picks should improve a team. When you compare the progress to other teams however, it's not pretty.
The track record is enough to justify, but the timing is suspect. There has been a lot in the Toronto media about Burke ruffling feathers to say the least, with reporters, Cherry, anyone who was critical of the team performance. I would not be surprised to learn there was some conflict between Burke and the new owners, especially if they mentioned a certain local baseball GM's name
What happens to Burke's Doghouse now is lost in all this!

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01-10-2013, 11:33 AM
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Senior Advisor = We'll keep paying you, just stay out of our way.
Kind of like the last year or two of Sinden I guess, but one would think Burke would be in a position to find other similar work for an organization that really wants him??

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01-10-2013, 11:39 AM
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Business is business...... but Burke is one of the good one's in my book:

1) Answers questions directly.
2) Is an amazingly entertaining interview.
3) Anecdotal stories from many suggest he's a good guy to chat with -- a guy who'll spend time with you.
4) A big, brusk, "tough" guy that maybe surprised a few of people by so publicly supporting his gay son with unwavering, unconditional love (a father who does that is top notch in my book).

Finally, like many of us here I love my son and daughter more than I can express. Any parent that loses a child and manages to keep it even remotely together gets major kudos from me. I hope he lands on his feet doing whatever he would like to be doing.
Burke is definitely a very nice person and has a huge heart. But being a nice person doesn't make you a great GM.

I think he underestimated the patience of Toronto fans. You don't improve a bottom-dweller by trading two (two! and a second!) first-round draft picks for a complementary piece like Phil Kessel. Not that Kessel is a bad player, but he's the type of guy a contending team adds to get over the top, not the type of guy a struggly team builds around.

I think that move put the Leafs in a huge hole and they have yet to recover.

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