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01-09-2013, 12:46 PM
  #26
GermanRocket7
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Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
The notion that all it takes is a hockey GM to talk to our billionaire businessman owner and sell him on a couple ideas to agree to losing a few more millions is so far beyond ridiculous that I don't know what to make of it. As if any GM was happy to not just face the league's, but also internal limitations. They work with what they are given, and they are fired when they don't. You're completely messing up the hierarchy there.
I completely disagree with you here. Bob Murray is virtually patting himself on the shoulder day in and day out that he's able to ice a team that can potentially contend for a PO spot on an internal budget. I highly doubt he EVER tried to pursue Samueli into allowing us to spend more. He's that kind of GM you can only install in a franchise 95% of the league (maybe more) don't even care about and where the fan base and press is so minuscule they won't be able to make their complaints heard at all.

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01-09-2013, 12:49 PM
  #27
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No, I do get the point. But the thing is: Burke was willing to be in the market for ANY free agent player. What's BM's response to each question regarding a player actually worth crap in free agency? "We're not in that market.".

I believe that IF the Ducks actually had pursued the A-class free agents (and by that spending to the cap) in the past four years instead of going dumpster diving and trying out players who were already broke (Cogliano -and that even in a trade!, Kyle Calder, Steve Eminger, Andrew Gordon et al.), we would at least have been a perennial PO team and might have very well advanced to the third round of the playoffs at least once more, thus generating cash instead of burning it.
What free agents did Burke bring in? Bertuzzi and Schneider? He was able to do that only because Niedermayer and Selanne were gone for a while. And it's not Murray's fault that the Ducks won't spend to the cap. You can blame Murray for a lot of things, but not for that...

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01-09-2013, 12:49 PM
  #28
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As long as he doesn't come back here to be our GM again, I'll be happy. You can't brush what went wrong with us at the end, or in his time in Toronto under the rug.

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01-09-2013, 12:51 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Elvstrand View Post
What free agents did Burke bring in? Bertuzzi and Schneider? He was able to do that only because Niedermayer and Selanne were gone for a while. And it's not Murray's fault that the Ducks won't spend to the cap. You can blame Murray for a lot of things, but not for that...
How about Scott Niedermayer and Teemu Selänne to begin with? He brought them to Anaheim, single-handedly. Granted, he was lucky we already had Rob here to pursue Scotty, but for Christ's sake: that was the last time we actually really made a splash in free agency. Since then, the Ducks have only gotten themselves some wannabes and hasbeens.

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01-09-2013, 12:52 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by GermanRocket7 View Post
I highly doubt he EVER tried to pursue Samueli into allowing us to spend more.
Good lord. You couldn't have less of a reason to just guess that. Even if he never did, that would be the normal thing in his job, because it's his job to work with what ownership gives him. Our owner didn't become as wealthy as a businessman by getting bullied into spending a few more millions by one of his employees. That notion is just absurd.

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01-09-2013, 12:54 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by GermanRocket7 View Post
No, I do get the point. But the thing is: Burke was willing to be in the market for ANY free agent player. What's BM's response to each question regarding a player actually worth crap in free agency? "We're not in that market.".

I believe that IF the Ducks actually had pursued the A-class free agents (and by that spending to the cap) in the past four years instead of going dumpster diving and trying out players who were already broke (Cogliano -and that even in a trade!, Kyle Calder, Steve Eminger, Andrew Gordon et al.), we would at least have been a perennial PO team and might have very well advanced to the third round of the playoffs at least once more, thus generating cash instead of burning it.
Did you see the deals the 'star' players got given in FA before the lockout? In what bizzaro world can the Ducks compete with that? It's 'ambitious' to say the least to think we could compete with those deals quite frankly.

Whether you like it or not, there is an internal cap to minimise the losses for the Ducks given there was a lack of revenue sharing for us. Maybe this changes a little thanks to new CBA, only time will tell.

And I doubt one 3rd round appearance out of say, 3-4 years would of given the Ducks a profit in the long run (and even if it did, would you really want to rely on hoping to make the 3rd round once in 4 years? That's bad business if I've ever seen it)

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01-09-2013, 01:02 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by GermanRocket7 View Post
How about Scott Niedermayer and Teemu Selänne to begin with? He brought them to Anaheim, single-handedly. Granted, he was lucky we already had Rob here to pursue Scotty, but for Christ's sake: that was the last time we actually really made a splash in free agency. Since then, the Ducks have only gotten themselves some wannabes and hasbeens.

What? Burke didnt do anything with either signing, they were both coming regardless. Scott came for Rob and Teemu came home. The Pronger trade yessir thats all Burke and Ill give him his props there, but I wont give him Teemu or Scotty.

Also, what big name who signed a big contract would you have wanted? Do you want any part of those cap circumvention deals which are now gonna hurt the teams who signed them?

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01-09-2013, 01:06 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Selanne138 View Post
What? Burke didnt do anything with either signing, they were both coming regardless. Scott came for Rob and Teemu came home. The Pronger trade yessir thats all Burke and Ill give him his props there, but I wont give him Teemu or Scotty.
Pronger
Beauchemin
O'donnell
Moen
May
EDIT: Forgot Todd Marchant!

Burke doesn't get enough credit for what he did in Anaheim. Not only in acquring those players, but also in dumping the likes of Fedorov, Rucchin, Ozolinsh, and Sykora.

GM had balls, and the team had an identity.


Last edited by jax00: 01-09-2013 at 01:59 PM.
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01-09-2013, 01:10 PM
  #34
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He had balls? LOL

Yeah, but it's a shame about the brains.

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01-09-2013, 01:13 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by GermanRocket7 View Post
How about Scott Niedermayer and Teemu Selänne to begin with? He brought them to Anaheim, single-handedly. Granted, he was lucky we already had Rob here to pursue Scotty, but for Christ's sake: that was the last time we actually really made a splash in free agency. Since then, the Ducks have only gotten themselves some wannabes and hasbeens.
What exactly would you have wanted Murray to do? When you have Ryan, Getzlaf, Perry, Koivu, Selanne, Niedermayer, Visnovsky, Giguere and Hiller, how much money do you think is left to sign more big names? This summer is the first when Murray actually had some money to spend.

Btw, Selanne was a 'has been' when he signed in 2005. Koivu, who Murray signed, was easily a bigger free agent signing than him.

And I'm not defending Murray, but you are criticising him for the wrong reasons. If this team doesn't make the playoffs I expect he'll get canned, though.


Last edited by Elvs: 01-09-2013 at 01:18 PM.
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01-09-2013, 01:18 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jax00 View Post
Pronger
Beauchemin
O'donnell
Moen
May

Burke doesn't get enough credit for what he did in Anaheim. Not only in acquring those players, but also in dumping the likes of Fedorov, Rucchin, Ozolinsh, and Sykora.

GM had balls, and the team had an identity.
Aside from Pronger, those other acquisitions were far from bold moves. Beauchemin and Moen were the same type of non significant acquisitions that Murray (or any GM for that matter) makes all the time. Burke should have credit for them panning out though the way they did, even if there's always luck involved in those situations.

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01-09-2013, 01:18 PM
  #37
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Wysh just brought up an interesting point. MLSE fired Burke and only Burke. That is extremely unusual in a scenario like this.

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01-09-2013, 01:26 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Wysh just brought up an interesting point. MLSE fired Burke and only Burke. That is extremely unusual in a scenario like this.
Yeah, I've been trying to make sense out of that myself. Falling short as of now.

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01-09-2013, 01:53 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by jax00 View Post
Pronger
Beauchemin
O'donnell
Moen
May

Burke doesn't get enough credit for what he did in Anaheim. Not only in acquring those players, but also in dumping the likes of Fedorov, Rucchin, Ozolinsh, and Sykora.

GM had balls, and the team had an identity.
I wasnt trying to downplay Burke's accomplishments, he just did nothing in getting Neids or Teemu here.

He made one blockbuster move, getting Pronger and brought in some nice role players as you mentioned, who fit Carlyle's system. Beauchemin was 100% one of the scouts though Im pretty sure, I remember a story that said he told Burke he had to get him as a part of the deal.

Without Burke we dont win a cup, but he did most of his work through trades not free agency like the guy I quoted said.

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01-09-2013, 02:02 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Selanne138 View Post
He made one blockbuster move, getting Pronger and brought in some nice role players as you mentioned, who fit Carlyle's system. Beauchemin was 100% one of the scouts though Im pretty sure, I remember a story that said he told Burke he had to get him as a part of the deal.
I remember that story too. Burke said he never hear of Beauchemin and that a scout/BM (can't remember) told Burke that if Beauchemin wasn't included it was a no deal. Burke always gave credit to the scouts on that trade.

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01-09-2013, 02:26 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by GermanRocket7 View Post
No, I do get the point. But the thing is: Burke was willing to be in the market for ANY free agent player. What's BM's response to each question regarding a player actually worth crap in free agency? "We're not in that market.".

I believe that IF the Ducks actually had pursued the A-class free agents (and by that spending to the cap) in the past four years instead of going dumpster diving and trying out players who were already broke (Cogliano -and that even in a trade!, Kyle Calder, Steve Eminger, Andrew Gordon et al.), we would at least have been a perennial PO team and might have very well advanced to the third round of the playoffs at least once more, thus generating cash instead of burning it.
But how well did Burke do getting A-class FAs and spending to the cap in Toronto?

OTH, Burke might not be that bad of a choice to lead the Ducks. Here's my take on Burke and GMs. They have different skill sets. Burke was a good finisher. Murray seems like a pretty good builder. Now that Murray has built up some assets, Burke might be able to spend them into acquiring a competing team. Of course long term I think Burke overspends and leaves the team in a hole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Wysh just brought up an interesting point. MLSE fired Burke and only Burke. That is extremely unusual in a scenario like this.
I must be missing something. How is that that unusual? Unusual as in why not fire coaches too? Because keeping the coach for now seems common to me. Hire a new GM and let him pick his own coach.

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Originally Posted by rollingdux View Post
I remember that story too. Burke said he never hear of Beauchemin and that a scout/BM (can't remember) told Burke that if Beauchemin wasn't included it was a no deal. Burke always gave credit to the scouts on that trade.
I'm fairly sure was Murray. In reality Burke was probably being a little facetious. My guess is Burke had a list of possible assets as secondary pieces and consults with his staff. Murray insists that Beauch (who was already on the list) be the one.

quadruple edit: and what's this about Luongo? I haven't been paying attention to any sort of trade rumors. Can someone please provide a summary on what happened and how it might have gotten Burke canned?


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01-09-2013, 02:40 PM
  #42
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When GMs are fired there is typically a house cleaning. An organization is more than a GM and some coaches.

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01-09-2013, 02:42 PM
  #43
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He also left the Ducks in a world of hurt when leaving.

And the cap was a lot lower back then, then it is now.
Other than the cap issues he really didn't. He left a ton of assets (in terms of NHL quality assets), the roster was very solid when he left and we've only won one playoff round without him which was won mostly by players he brought in.

Yeah, he had two bad drafts (which is on the scouts more than Burke). He also drafted Gardiner and Schultz which nobody gives him credit for and he brought in Martin Madden just after the '08 draft.

Burke gets way too much crap from Ducks fans. He got us a cup and was the best GM we've ever had yet many will take Murray who has only ever won one playoff series over him. I know prospects are nice and all but the scouting staff is far more responsible for the drafts than the GM and Murray had twice as many first rounders to work with 2 of the years he was here because he was able to get a big return for an asset Burke brought in (Pronger).

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I'd welcome him back in Anaheim under any role really.
Same, I'd take him back in a second. I don't think the job he did in Toronto was that bad at all. Compare the team he inherited to the team that's there today. They went from absolute crap with nothing in the pipeline to a team than now at least has some promise and are only a starting goaltender away from being a playoff team.

And yeah the timing on this move is retarded. Most of the media seem to think something fishy is going on.

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01-09-2013, 02:44 PM
  #44
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When GMs are fired there is typically a house cleaning. An organization is more than a GM and some coaches.
I would say a house cleaning is common but not typical. Like new GM might want to keep Nonis or something.

Of course that was before I learned Nonis was staying. So I dunno.

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01-09-2013, 02:50 PM
  #45
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Note that Toronto has been "one goaltender from being a playoff team" since the last lockout. Are we really pretending that the Kessel trade wasn't godawful? How about his inability to fire Wilson when needed, or that the best he could do was take passive aggressive shots at him in the press? There is all that and more. Don't kid yourselves about him not earning this.

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01-09-2013, 03:03 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Note that Toronto has been "one goaltender from being a playoff team" since the last lockout. Are we really pretending that the Kessel trade wasn't godawful? How about his inability to fire Wilson when needed, or that the best he could do was take passive aggressive shots at him in the press? There is all that and more. Don't kid yourselves about him not earning this.
If your saying Burke did deserve this? I agree.... He made dead weight deals here in Anaheim and left Vancouver with nothing. Even though he brought in the Sedins. Toronto was his last stop. And I don't want him back.

But my question? Exit? You reading this? Fired from GM but gets a job as senior advisor? Lol wtf

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01-09-2013, 03:09 PM
  #47
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He's under contract for a few more seasons. Better to keep him on a leash. It is Burke after all.

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01-09-2013, 03:14 PM
  #48
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Note that Toronto has been "one goaltender from being a playoff team" since the last lockout. Are we really pretending that the Kessel trade wasn't godawful? How about his inability to fire Wilson when needed, or that the best he could do was take passive aggressive shots at him in the press? There is all that and more. Don't kid yourselves about him not earning this.
The Kessel trade is godawful, yes. But the Gardiner/Lupul and Phaneuf trades were both great as much as I dislike Phaneuf as a no.1 dman. He made his mistakes, sure (the Komisarek signing being another wtf moment) but look at the roster and prospect pool he inherited and compare it to what they've got now. They're definitely in a much better situation.

I do agree though that he's much more of a finisher than a builder. And his history with identifying goaltending talent has been questionable at best (fortunately Anaheim had Giguere & Bryzgalov before he arrived although he did get us Hiller before he left).

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01-09-2013, 03:17 PM
  #49
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Nonis probably wanted him to stick around in some capacity.

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01-09-2013, 03:19 PM
  #50
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I would say a house cleaning is common but not typical. Like new GM might want to keep Nonis or something.

Of course that was before I learned Nonis was staying. So I dunno.
You're focusing in only on the most visible people.

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