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Old
01-23-2013, 10:29 PM
  #201
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it was during the first intermission of the leafs-pens game. i'll try and find a video of it.
From Justin Bourne:

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TSN’s Bob McKenzie was discussing possible end-games for the PK Subban/Marc Bergevin contract stand-off tonight during the first period of the Leafs/Penguins game, when he said he figured “trade” to be the most likely outcome of the situation. And with desperate teams panicking about their defense in the early going – Detroit, in particular, comes to mind – who knows what the Habs could get in return. And hey, while I’m mindlessly bandying about teams, Philly could use a little help on the back-end too. Anyway, that’s where we’re at – insiders thinking the PK Subban situation could end poorly.
http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/0...nd-in-a-trade/

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01-23-2013, 10:37 PM
  #202
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They'll have to amputate.
you use to love that guy

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01-24-2013, 09:40 AM
  #203
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8355 in Phoenix last night. For a team that made the WCF last season. Providence has ROUTINELY had that many at games this year. And the league is fighting tooth and nail to keep them there. Infuriating.

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Old
01-24-2013, 09:45 AM
  #204
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look, arizona is a hellhole, we all know that, and that franchise should probably move at some point

that having been said, i'm still uncomfortable with the general take of the hfboards intelligensia that basically amounts to "let's move hockey back to saturated markets"

getting more gate take from toronto is great and all but it doesn't grow the sport; like many other things in life, loss leading in a few places is a requirement to get growth

i don't think that loss leading in arizona is a good choice, but when you look at, say nashville or tampa bay or carolina, you start to understand the value of those teams

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Old
01-24-2013, 10:12 AM
  #205
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I haven't seen Detroit suck so much since Steve Yzerman's early days with them.

Man what a drop off in play

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Old
01-24-2013, 10:28 AM
  #206
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you use to love that guy
Lupul? Never.

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01-24-2013, 10:54 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by deliciouspie View Post
look, arizona is a hellhole, we all know that, and that franchise should probably move at some point

that having been said, i'm still uncomfortable with the general take of the hfboards intelligensia that basically amounts to "let's move hockey back to saturated markets"

getting more gate take from toronto is great and all but it doesn't grow the sport; like many other things in life, loss leading in a few places is a requirement to get growth

i don't think that loss leading in arizona is a good choice, but when you look at, say nashville or tampa bay or carolina, you start to understand the value of those teams
It would just be nice if they paid as much attention to the people who like hockey as much as they to to people who don't give a ****.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:20 AM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deliciouspie View Post
look, arizona is a hellhole, we all know that, and that franchise should probably move at some point

that having been said, i'm still uncomfortable with the general take of the hfboards intelligensia that basically amounts to "let's move hockey back to saturated markets"

getting more gate take from toronto is great and all but it doesn't grow the sport; like many other things in life, loss leading in a few places is a requirement to get growth

i don't think that loss leading in arizona is a good choice, but when you look at, say nashville or tampa bay or carolina, you start to understand the value of those teams
What other non-traditional market would make sense?

I mean, the following are covered:

California (2 teams)
Texas
Florida (2 teams)
The Carolinas
Tennessee

Atlanta has been a failure twice. Arizona is on the edge.

I'm just trying to think of an expansion/move to a different non-traditional market that would make sense and actually be feasible. The only one that jumps to mind would be either Seattle or Portland.

Thinking about it more, I wonder if something like Indianapolis would work. Maybe the football rivalries would transfer to the ice as far as the fandom is concerned.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:27 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by deliciouspie View Post
look, arizona is a hellhole, we all know that, and that franchise should probably move at some point

that having been said, i'm still uncomfortable with the general take of the hfboards intelligensia that basically amounts to "let's move hockey back to saturated markets"

getting more gate take from toronto is great and all but it doesn't grow the sport; like many other things in life, loss leading in a few places is a requirement to get growth

i don't think that loss leading in arizona is a good choice, but when you look at, say nashville or tampa bay or carolina, you start to understand the value of those teams
This whole "growing the game" is nonsense, the NHL has all corners of the United States covered by now. The only thing this "growing the game" would help with for the NHL is getting a huge national TV deal which the NHL just isn't getting. Toronto is a huge metropolitan area and they are hockey mad. Getting Leafs tickets is stupidly hard without boat loads of money. The NHL is a gate driven league and a second team in the GTA would be instantly profitable and stay that way.

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01-24-2013, 11:37 AM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deliciouspie View Post
look, arizona is a hellhole, we all know that, and that franchise should probably move at some point

that having been said, i'm still uncomfortable with the general take of the hfboards intelligensia that basically amounts to "let's move hockey back to saturated markets"

getting more gate take from toronto is great and all but it doesn't grow the sport; like many other things in life, loss leading in a few places is a requirement to get growth

i don't think that loss leading in arizona is a good choice, but when you look at, say nashville or tampa bay or carolina, you start to understand the value of those teams
Doesn't have to be in the GTA or anything but it simply can't be in Phoenix any longer. Quebec City is A#1 for me with maybe somewhere like Seattle as an option as well.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:40 AM
  #211
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I'd still love to have PK in Boston.
Chia should offer sheet him.

Either he gets a young top-4 dmen for relativeley nothing (1st+3rd I beleive) or he screw up the Cap management plan of the Habs.

Win-Win.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:47 AM
  #212
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Doesn't have to be in the GTA or anything but it simply can't be in Phoenix any longer. Quebec City is A#1 for me with maybe somewhere like Seattle as an option as well.
The league wants Seattle in a big way. With the new arena now being fast tracked, I wouldn't be surprised to see Phoenix up there in two or three years.

Quebec and Toronto will be big dollar expansion fee teams.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:54 AM
  #213
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part of the problem with my argument, admittedly, is that the nhl comes up with a pretty good business concept (expand game to new markets, loss lead until more popular, get tv contract, grow game; for reference, see: nfl forty years ago) and then saddles it with a crap business plan (see lots of rich white people in state and ignore that rich white people are geographically sparse as hell and also in a state that, in part due to rich white people, has terrible transportation; not do any meaningful outreach to grow the game to speak of)

when you compare what happened in carolina (huge inline presence grown through transplants in the triangle and usa hockey, not NHL, growing ice presence through same) and tampa (dense snowbird area), it's not really any surprise that arizona isn't a good market

that said, there's no reason why the following markets shouldn't be explored

portland
seattle
milwaulkee
indiana

and frankly, yes, the nhl should be placing teams in densely located nontraditional markets, but they should be subsidizing youth teams and rinks for ten years or so before they expect to see profit

if that means that people in canada who already watch the games don't get to go to the games and the league gets hurt by lack of gate, them's the short/medium term breaks while the long term results in the league being more popular overall and, guess what, not a gate driven league

this is kind of mba 101 stuff but it's not like the nhl can figure out that placing a new sport in an area requires outreach beyond, "rich migratory whites"

it's a miracle that so many non traditional markets actually succeeded when you think about it

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:59 AM
  #214
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something else i would support

- move arizona to one of above named cities
- throw insular canadian market a bone by expanding two teams, one in gta one in quebec (we could even call the 2nd quebec team les unionistes and rename the habs les levesques and let every single game between the two be a battle within the cold war for separatism; it'll be a gas)
- take gates from one of two new teams and commit 10 years worth of this to subsidizing youth hockey in a dense, growing region
- watch TAM and SAM grow, get national tv contract, grow sport

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:08 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deliciouspie View Post
part of the problem with my argument, admittedly, is that the nhl comes up with a pretty good business concept (expand game to new markets, loss lead until more popular, get tv contract, grow game; for reference, see: nfl forty years ago) and then saddles it with a crap business plan (see lots of rich white people in state and ignore that rich white people are geographically sparse as hell and also in a state that, in part due to rich white people, has terrible transportation; not do any meaningful outreach to grow the game to speak of)

when you compare what happened in carolina (huge inline presence grown through transplants in the triangle and usa hockey, not NHL, growing ice presence through same) and tampa (dense snowbird area), it's not really any surprise that arizona isn't a good market

that said, there's no reason why the following markets shouldn't be explored

portland
seattle
milwaulkee
indiana

and frankly, yes, the nhl should be placing teams in densely located nontraditional markets, but they should be subsidizing youth teams and rinks for ten years or so before they expect to see profit

if that means that people in canada who already watch the games don't get to go to the games and the league gets hurt by lack of gate, them's the short/medium term breaks while the long term results in the league being more popular overall and, guess what, not a gate driven league

this is kind of mba 101 stuff but it's not like the nhl can figure out that placing a new sport in an area requires outreach beyond, "rich migratory whites"

it's a miracle that so many non traditional markets actually succeeded when you think about it
Phoenix, Atlanta, and Miami are also, traditionally, not great sports cities. I think that should have been part of their business plan as well. The grassroots buildup of rinks and youth players should have been obvious wherever they went though.

The only thing that leaves me skeptical about Milwaukee, Indianapolis, and Portland vs. say Houston, Seattle, and Kansas City is the fact that each of the first 3 are mid-range (outside of top 20 DMA) and they have an NBA presence. The latter 3 are either big cities (top 15 DMA) or don't have the NBA at all.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:13 PM
  #216
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i kind of named those cities based on a whitebread population so we could avoid the inevitable accusations that by suggesting that a franchise be moved to a place with (gasp) nonwhite people, i was poisoning the debate by making people opposed to such things look like racists

this is a thing that has happened to me

but yes, a houston team would make a ton of sense

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:37 PM
  #217
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i kind of named those cities based on a whitebread population so we could avoid the inevitable accusations that by suggesting that a franchise be moved to a place with (gasp) nonwhite people, i was poisoning the debate by making people opposed to such things look like racists

this is a thing that has happened to me

but yes, a houston team would make a ton of sense
Your previous suggestion was a good one. I like the idea of 32 teams for symmetry purposes, and if you're going to expand, do so in Canada where fans will support a struggling expansion franchise through the early growing pains. Taking that expansion fee and using it to build the hockey infrastructure in the non-traditional markets is the best way to get people playing, which from experience will get them to start watching.

I'd relocate Phoenix and Miami to Seattle and Houston, and then immediately give the PR representative (think the LA Kings Twitter account) to start trolling the Canucks and Stars.

GTA-QC-MTL-BOS-OTT-BUF-CBJ-TOR
BKY-NYR-NJ-PHI-PIT-WAS-CAR-TB
DET-CHI-STL-NSH-DAL-HOU-MIN-WPG
LA-ANA-SJ-VAN-SEA-EDM-CAL-COL

Play a heavy divisional schedule (keeping each team's games in their own time zone as much as possible), emphasize rivalries, profit?

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:40 PM
  #218
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I don't know the ownership history in Atlanta and Phoenix that well to analyze it. However, that being said I would "think" that in nontraditional markets like they are one of the most important requirements of ownership would be very deep pockets and the willingness to take considerable losses.
Also as someone has said before I think the NHL has to be a long term partner of these owners and grow the hockey infrastructure in those cities so that it becomes the norm to want to play/watch hockey.
My guess is this is one of the fundamental reasons for the failures in Atlanta and Phoenix.


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Old
01-24-2013, 12:58 PM
  #219
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portland
seattle
milwaulkee
indiana
Hockey isn't popular outside of northern Indiana (Hawk fans mostly alot of former Illinois residents)

Ditto for Milwaukee ,, Hockey is not a very popular sport and the stadium is not all that great

In Wisconsino Madison is hockey hotbead but is too small for an NHL team and an NHL team would never win in competion with Badgers sports

Seattle currently has no ownership or arena (Remember Sonics previous owner made Key Arena not viable for NHL)

And Portland comes down to Paul Allen and outside of feigning interest in Pens (Back when he was fighting for control of the arena) he has shown no interest in Hockey

I would like to see Houston get shot at NHL but Les Alexander after being shutout twice (Tried to buy and move Oilers + Lost last expansion bid) seems to have ended his pursuit of NHL team

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01-24-2013, 01:05 PM
  #220
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part of the problem with my argument, admittedly, is that the nhl comes up with a pretty good business concept (expand game to new markets, loss lead until more popular, get tv contract, grow game; for reference, see: nfl forty years ago) and then saddles it with a crap business plan (see lots of rich white people in state and ignore that rich white people are geographically sparse as hell and also in a state that, in part due to rich white people, has terrible transportation; not do any meaningful outreach to grow the game to speak of)

when you compare what happened in carolina (huge inline presence grown through transplants in the triangle and usa hockey, not NHL, growing ice presence through same) and tampa (dense snowbird area), it's not really any surprise that arizona isn't a good market

that said, there's no reason why the following markets shouldn't be explored

portland
seattle
milwaulkee
indiana

and frankly, yes, the nhl should be placing teams in densely located nontraditional markets, but they should be subsidizing youth teams and rinks for ten years or so before they expect to see profit

if that means that people in canada who already watch the games don't get to go to the games and the league gets hurt by lack of gate, them's the short/medium term breaks while the long term results in the league being more popular overall and, guess what, not a gate driven league

this is kind of mba 101 stuff but it's not like the nhl can figure out that placing a new sport in an area requires outreach beyond, "rich migratory whites"

it's a miracle that so many non traditional markets actually succeeded when you think about it
Indianapolis isn't that large of a metro area and the state of Indiana is known for their commitment to basketball, hockey's direct competitor. Milwaukee is another small metro area with an NBA team but they would start with a larger base of hockey fans. The Pacific Northwest cities wouldn't be too bad to explore IMO. Seattle needs an arena though.

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01-24-2013, 01:16 PM
  #221
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Indianapolis isn't that large of a metro area and the state of Indiana is known for their commitment to basketball, hockey's direct competitor. Milwaukee is another small metro area with an NBA team but they would start with a larger base of hockey fans. The Pacific Northwest cities wouldn't be too bad to explore IMO. Seattle needs an arena though.
I don't think Portland is a big enough city to compete head to head with an established NBA team. I believe any other DMA that has both the NBA or NHL are at least 30% larger than Portland (1.18m) ex. Denver (1.56m), Miami (1.62m and struggling), and Minneapolis (1.7m and the State of Hockey).

The only viable American markets left in my mind are Houston (2.2m), Seattle (1.8m), and Kansas City (0.9m), you could potentially stretch that to Hartford (0.9m) except in both cases (Hartford and KC), there is a strong college basketball presence you'd be fighting.

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01-24-2013, 01:23 PM
  #222
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What other non-traditional market would make sense?

I mean, the following are covered:

California (2 teams)
Texas
Florida (2 teams)
The Carolinas
Tennessee

Atlanta has been a failure twice. Arizona is on the edge.

I'm just trying to think of an expansion/move to a different non-traditional market that would make sense and actually be feasible. The only one that jumps to mind would be either Seattle or Portland.

Thinking about it more, I wonder if something like Indianapolis would work. Maybe the football rivalries would transfer to the ice as far as the fandom is concerned.
Seattle seems like a good spot to put a team. Very close to the Canadian border which could help drive a rivalry between the Nucks and Seattle. Guaranteed fans would cross the border to watch games. The jays create a pretty good draw when their in Seattle which IMO is pretty telling. Leaves the team far enough west that it makes sense to me.

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01-24-2013, 01:26 PM
  #223
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I don't think Portland is a big enough city to compete head to head with an established NBA team. I believe any other DMA that has both the NBA or NHL are at least 30% larger than Portland (1.18m) ex. Denver (1.56m), Miami (1.62m and struggling), and Minneapolis (1.7m and the State of Hockey).

The only viable American markets left in my mind are Houston (2.2m), Seattle (1.8m), and Kansas City (0.9m), you could potentially stretch that to Hartford (0.9m) except in both cases (Hartford and KC), there is a strong college basketball presence you'd be fighting.
Doesn't Dallas have some trouble drawing fans? I'm not positive on it but I know they aren't a team that spends to the cap which is usually pretty telling.

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01-24-2013, 01:32 PM
  #224
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I think Seattle would be a great location either by relocation or expansion and Quebec is the ultimate no brainer......assuming one franchise relocation and two expansion teams (love those expansion fees,) I'd put Houston, a second Toronto team, KC and Cleveland ( yes Cleveland) all in the mix for the third spot

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01-24-2013, 01:39 PM
  #225
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Doesn't Dallas have some trouble drawing fans? I'm not positive on it but I know they aren't a team that spends to the cap which is usually pretty telling.
No, not really. That was a product of Tom Hicks having financial problems outside of the Stars. Now that Gaglardi owns the team, they should be in much better shape.

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