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*ALL* Luongo Talk (News/Speculation/Rumors/Proposals)

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Old
01-10-2013, 12:10 AM
  #326
EvoLu7ioN
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Originally Posted by StanGrossman View Post
Has anyone considered that maybe Burke really wanted to make the Luogno deal and go all out to make the playoffs whereas the new ownership and Nonis were more inclined to just settle down and rebuild - maybe stripping the team of expensive older talent and going with a youth movement? That would more fit with the comments from Nonis at presser.
Of course Nonis is gonna talk like that, can you imagine the leverage Gillis would have if he had come out and been like "yeah, we're selling the farm and going all in this year gents".

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01-10-2013, 12:11 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo96 View Post
Within the five year period to develop, the goaltender position can be assessed and fixed. It doesn't need to be this 48 game season. How bad would it look if we dealt Gardiner + Kadri for Luongo only for a situation to arise where we could have acquired a goalie for less when he became available for whatever reason... Or Reimer plays well enough himself?
It's not just 48 games, you are forgetting the previous how many years you have had without one. You are already at 4 years.

In that time how many #1 goalies have been available to the leafs? What makes you think the next 5 years will be any different.

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Old
01-10-2013, 12:12 AM
  #328
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Getting paid 3mil a season and the amount he was allowed to spend on coaching + management group means Burke received whatever he wanted when he signed that contract including autonomy.
I don't get how that means anything?

Yes he was paid a lot, and he was given all the resources he needed to build a winner.. but that doesn't give him autonomy to build the team as he sees fit. He could well have been given a mandate to get the franchise into a playoff spot by Year X. That right there would take autonomy away from him as he would not be allowed to build a winner in 5-6-7 years, but would have to do it sooner.

Any owner sitting on a business that won't make the several millions they can while in a playoff spot isn't going to be happy just waiting as long as it takes to build a winner. As passionate fans we all want our team build the right way and have allt he patience in the world to see that happen. Hockey owners aren't in the same boat. It's their money being invested and it's their profits that are handicapped by waiting it out. Burke was given a large salary and lots of resources. To me that doesn't mean he has autonomy to build the franchise as he sees fit, it means that he has tremendous pressure on him to build a winner in a mega-profitable hockey market. And given his firing I think it's safe to say that he didn't have the autonomy that you're suggesting he did. Seems obvious that he wasn't on the same page as ownership - otherwise why would he get fired? If he had all the autonomy to build as he sees fit, he'd still have his job right now. Clearly there's pressure from ownership to be successful faster than Burke was able to deliver.

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01-10-2013, 12:13 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
It's not just 48 games, you are forgetting the previous how many years you have had without one. You are already at 4 years.

In that time how many #1 goalies have been available to the leafs? What makes you think the next 5 years will be any different.
We aren't ready to compete, what will Luongo do? Nothing. Our defense is suspect, our top 6 is decent. No 1C. We got goalie prospects and Reimer looks half decent. No use in trading Gardiner for an aging tender.

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01-10-2013, 12:15 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by StanGrossman View Post
Has anyone considered that maybe Burke really wanted to make the Luogno deal and go all out to make the playoffs whereas the new ownership and Nonis were more inclined to just settle down and rebuild - maybe stripping the team of expensive older talent and going with a youth movement? That would more fit with the comments from Nonis at presser.
No for a few reasons, insiders like Lebrun have said the opposite, Nonis has proven in the past to love Lui, Burke has proven in the past to not value goalies, and the leafs are still rumored to be interested in Lui.

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Old
01-10-2013, 12:15 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by binop7 View Post
We aren't ready to compete, what will Luongo do? Nothing. Our defense is suspect, our top 6 is decent. No 1C. We got goalie prospects and Reimer looks half decent. No use in trading Gardiner for an aging tender.
Aren't ready to compete? What a load of nonsense.

At least Luongo will bring some excitement to your team and steal some games for you guys. Luongo will point your team in the right direction. At least during Canucks HNIC intermissions I will be able to see some sweet Luongo saves. He will attain deity status in TO. Mark my words.

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01-10-2013, 12:16 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
It's not just 48 games, you are forgetting the previous how many years you have had without one. You are already at 4 years.

In that time how many #1 goalies have been available to the leafs? What makes you think the next 5 years will be any different.
I think the preception is being made that I don't want Luongo, which is completely false... I would love to acquire him. It's possible we win a cup with him down the road should we acquire him. But the risks are too great to deal Gardiner + for him. Gardiner is too valuable of an asset to the Leafs as an asset. Find another way to get it done. Kulemin + Kadri + Bozak + 2nd or whatever (Obviously Vancouver can be subjective to what they will accept. That's their right).

The point i'm trying to paint is dealing Gardiner for Luongo is too big of a risk at this point in time. That goes the same for Rielly.

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01-10-2013, 12:16 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
I don't get how that means anything?

Yes he was paid a lot, and he was given all the resources he needed to build a winner.. but that doesn't give him autonomy to build the team as he sees fit. He could well have been given a mandate to get the franchise into a playoff spot by Year X. That right there would take autonomy away from him as he would not be allowed to build a winner in 5-6-7 years, but would have to do it sooner.

Any owner sitting on a business that won't make the several millions they can while in a playoff spot isn't going to be happy just waiting as long as it takes to build a winner. As passionate fans we all want our team build the right way and have allt he patience in the world to see that happen. Hockey owners aren't in the same boat. It's their money being invested and it's their profits that are handicapped by waiting it out. Burke was given a large salary and lots of resources. To me that doesn't mean he has autonomy to build the franchise as he sees fit, it means that he has tremendous pressure on him to build a winner in a mega-profitable hockey market. And given his firing I think it's safe to say that he didn't have the autonomy that you're suggesting he did. Seems obvious that he wasn't on the same page as ownership - otherwise why would he get fired? If he had all the autonomy to build as he sees fit, he'd still have his job right now. Clearly there's pressure from ownership to be successful faster than Burke was able to deliver.
Burke has never had a history of being a patient builder. Why would he start now?

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01-10-2013, 12:16 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by binop7 View Post
We aren't ready to compete, what will Luongo do? Nothing. Our defense is suspect, our top 6 is decent. No 1C. We got goalie prospects and Reimer looks half decent. No use in trading Gardiner for an aging tender.
You just don't get it do you? This isn't about any of that. It's about money. Plain and simple.

How about I put you in front of a room full of millionaire MLSE shareholders and you try to convince them why Jake Gardiner is worth a $20 million+ revenue loss this year. You think that would go well for you?

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01-10-2013, 12:16 AM
  #335
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Compare the Leafs roster vs Luongo's first season in Vancouver.

Sedin - Sedin - Pyatt = Lupul - Bozak - Kessel * At the time Sedins were only PPG players.
Naslund Morrison Cooke < JVR - Grabovski - MacArthur
Bulis Green Linden < Kulemin - McClement - Frattin
Burrows Kesler Cowan > Brown - Steckel -

Ohlund - Salo > Gunnar - Phaneuf
Mitchell - Bieksa > Liles - Komisarek
Fitzpatrick - Krajicek < Gardiner - Ranger

Luongo = Luongo
Sabourin < Reimer

AV trap < Carlyle trap

Look at that brutal forward core, Luongo single handely carried us to a 105 point season. Luongo had 47 wins.

The Leafs have NEVER had more than 45 wins as a team, not even in a 84 game season.

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Old
01-10-2013, 12:18 AM
  #336
racerjoe
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Originally Posted by binop7 View Post
We aren't ready to compete, what will Luongo do? Nothing. Our defense is suspect, our top 6 is decent. No 1C. We got goalie prospects and Reimer looks half decent. No use in trading Gardiner for an aging tender.
And Vancouver in a similar situation with lui made it to the second round of the playoffs, and lost to the team that would do on to win the cup.

I am not advocating trading Gardiner, I am still sticking to my Roster player top prospect 1st.

One of these two I like but a few others have been good two.

Bozak
Kadri
1st

Bozak
Kadri
Finn

Not huge on any of them, but they all can work to fit needs or wants.

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Old
01-10-2013, 12:20 AM
  #337
Lonny Bohonos
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
sorry, I don't buy that. I know what gets said in the media, but reality is often (if not always) different.

Burke had full autonomy as long as he kept his bosses happy. That's just how it works in every business.
And not making the playoffs for the umpteenth time while the competition does would sour the emotions of any manager/owner tasked with making money.

Leafs fans want to win the cup, have enjoyment watching their players etc etc. Management wants to make money. Smart managers tasked with making money leave emotions out of the equation as much as possible. Thats part of Burkes downfall.

Imagine Vancouver having a streak of non-playoff seasons. The place would be empty. Leafs at least have the luxury that is not really a possibility no matter how bad they are. But that masks the reality from the fans, the firm is not making nearly as much money as it should. The owners understand this. Fans dont.

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01-10-2013, 12:21 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
I'm pulling this out of my *** but my best guess would be between 2 and 2.5 million

plus concessions, merchandise ect
HNC was saying eight million per playoff game last year.

Nonis was SO patient when he was here. I think he is going to want to wait until things go more his way before jumping into the trade market. I am certain he won't engage in a bidding war.

Philadelphia has the pieces Vancouver needs. I think Ottawa and Detroit might be good destinations for Luongo. Boston and NJ might emerge, too.

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Old
01-10-2013, 12:21 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
You just don't get it do you? This isn't about any of that. It's about money. Plain and simple.

How about I put you in front of a room full of millionaire MLSE shareholders and you try to convince them why Jake Gardiner is worth a $20 million+ revenue loss this year. You think that would go well for you?
Want to know what creates even more money? Building a championship winning team. Your sole argument is summed up by one thing: Ownership will force the Leafs to overpay for Luongo because of $ gathered by possible playoff games.

That's a large assumption, and you can stick to your opinion because there's no point in arguing what neither of us know is true for a fact. If Nonis' hands were completely tied as you're suggesting I don't believe he would have taken the job. That's my opinion. Neither of us know whose right, and whose wrong, until the deal (if any deal) is made.

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Old
01-10-2013, 12:25 AM
  #340
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Aren't ready to compete? What a load of nonsense.

At least Luongo will bring some excitement to your team and steal some games for you guys. Luongo will point your team in the right direction. At least during Canucks HNIC intermissions I will be able to see some sweet Luongo saves. He will attain deity status in TO. Mark my words.
Tell me how many Stanley cup contenders have C depth as weak as ours? No one. We have to continue stock piling prospects.

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01-10-2013, 12:26 AM
  #341
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Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo96 View Post
No. I'm operating under the primary concern of winning a championship. And realistically, even with Luongo, the Leafs aren't a contender. They likely won't be a contender for quite some time after acquiring Luongo (I dropped 5 years as a hypothetical). There are too many holes in this team.

By that time, Luongo is older. Could still be preforming at an elite level. But, might not be as well. If he is... Great, but for how much longer?

So, your window of opportunity of winning, even if Luongo is playing at an elite level when you're ready to contend.. gets even smaller with Luongo's age.
So what if the Leafs are not a contender?

Fans care about that.

Management wants and needs to make money.

You guys havent made the playoffs in how many years? Thats a ton of extra money that was not made. Fans dont care about that but guarantee management does.

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01-10-2013, 12:27 AM
  #342
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Compare the Leafs roster vs Luongo's first season in Vancouver.

Sedin - Sedin - Pyatt = Lupul - Bozak - Kessel * At the time Sedins were only PPG players.
Naslund Morrison Cooke < JVR - Grabovski - MacArthur
Bulis Green Linden < Kulemin - McClement - Frattin
Burrows Kesler Cowan > Brown - Steckel -

Ohlund - Salo > Gunnar - Phaneuf
Mitchell - Bieksa > Liles - Komisarek
Fitzpatrick - Krajicek < Gardiner - Ranger

Luongo = Luongo
Sabourin < Reimer

AV trap < Carlyle trap

Look at that brutal forward core, Luongo single handely carried us to a 105 point season. Luongo had 47 wins.

The Leafs have NEVER had more than 45 wins as a team, not even in a 84 game season.

Do it for Rory, he'd do it for you!

Those were the days

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01-10-2013, 12:27 AM
  #343
binop7
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
You just don't get it do you? This isn't about any of that. It's about money. Plain and simple.

How about I put you in front of a room full of millionaire MLSE shareholders and you try to convince them why Jake Gardiner is worth a $20 million+ revenue loss this year. You think that would go well for you?
What brings in more money 1 playoff round where we get wrecked in 4-5 games. Or a season in season out contender like say Detroit?

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01-10-2013, 12:28 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo96 View Post
Want to know what creates even more money? Building a championship winning team. Your sole argument is summed up by one thing: Ownership will force the Leafs to overpay for Luongo because of $ gathered by possible playoff games.

That's a large assumption, and you can stick to your opinion because there's no point in arguing what neither of us know is true for a fact. If Nonis' hands were completely tied as you're suggesting I don't believe he would have taken the job. That's my opinion. Neither of us know whose right, and whose wrong, until the deal (if any deal) is made.
You have to make the playoffs first. Again management cares more about that now that they do about Leafs maybe, possible, potential becoming a "contender"/cup champion team in 5 years.

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01-10-2013, 12:28 AM
  #345
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What brings in more money 1 playoff round where we get wrecked in 4-5 games. Or a season in season out contender like say Detroit?
What brings in more money?

Making the playoffs vs not.

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01-10-2013, 12:29 AM
  #346
binop7
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
You just don't get it do you? This isn't about any of that. It's about money. Plain and simple.

How about I put you in front of a room full of millionaire MLSE shareholders and you try to convince them why Jake Gardiner is worth a $20 million+ revenue loss this year. You think that would go well for you?
Is it really a $20 million loss. You don't even know if they'd make the playoffs how bout we ask the shareholders if they want to bring in a guy with $40+ mil left on his deal.

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01-10-2013, 12:30 AM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
What brings in more money?

Making the playoffs vs not.
Even with Luongo the current roster doesn't guarantee playoffs, maybe the shareholders don't see that, but I'm sure Nonis/Poulin/Dudley/Loiselle do.

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01-10-2013, 12:31 AM
  #348
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And Vancouver in a similar situation with lui made it to the second round of the playoffs, and lost to the team that would do on to win the cup.

I am not advocating trading Gardiner, I am still sticking to my Roster player top prospect 1st.

One of these two I like but a few others have been good two.

Bozak
Kadri
1st

Bozak
Kadri
Finn

Not huge on any of them, but they all can work to fit needs or wants.
There's no way Toronto ships out a 1st, especially after the Kessel fiasco. In a shortened 48 game season, Toronto could finish inside the playoffs or they could fall flat on their face and finish in the bottom five. Montreal couldn't possibly be any worse than they were last year, Carolina has improved, Winnipeg is getting better, etc. Toronto could easily flounder and that 1st could be a Monahan or a Barkov.

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01-10-2013, 12:32 AM
  #349
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What brings in more money 1 playoff round where we get wrecked in 4-5 games. Or a season in season out contender like say Detroit?
The one where you don't miss the playoffs for the next 5 years, losing over $100 million in revenue.

You act as if giving up Gardiner somehow forbids the possibility of the Leafs ever making improvements in the future. That somehow the long term sustainability of the franchise hinges directly upon his shoulders. You're being ridiculous.

Get into the playoffs and bring in revenue. Now. Work on staying there and improving in the future.

It's not complicated.

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01-10-2013, 12:32 AM
  #350
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What brings in more money 1 playoff round where we get wrecked in 4-5 games. Or a season in season out contender like say Detroit?
I agree, but what makes more money, over ten years; taking 7 years of missing the playoffs, to become a team like Detroit - who by the way took like another 7 to be a contender, or making the playoffs year in year out?

People forget you don't go from being a bottom 5 team in the NHL to suddenly being a cup contender, even in 5 years, if you haven't made the playoffs, and are just starting to then, you probably still have another 4-5 to become a contender.

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