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Why do you think the scoring is down in the NHL?

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Old
09-22-2003, 03:30 AM
  #26
MojoJojo
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This has already been mentioned, but proper enforcement of the rules is such a no brainer it bears repeating. Seriously, the NHL is shooting itself in the foot and ruining their own product with the shoddy officiating.

Number one thing they could do to improve the game: have an eye in the sky referee who can make calls the guys on the ice miss. Being on the ice, you see things in great detail, but you miss an awful lot. So have someone in the press box who can watch from above and can watch the replays. It would be absurdly easy to mic the guys on the ice so they could communicate (without having to use that silly 70's phone on the side). The refs would complain of course, but at least the games would be properly called for a change. Scoring would go up, and Hockey would be exciting to watch once again.

Either that, or allow players to reach back and deck whoever it is hooking them or holding their stick.

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09-22-2003, 03:36 AM
  #27
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From an overall standpoint, the talent pool isnt thinner now. Remember, back in the high scoring 80's, we had no talented eastern bloc players skating around.

Although there are too many teams, which robs offenses of greater depth, the greatest problems remain playing style and a too small ice surface.


In 1979-80, the average NHL player was 5' 11" and 185 pounds.

In todays NHL, the average is around 6' 1" and 205 lbs.

Remember how great the last Olympics were? Give the skill players room and watch the game improve.

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09-22-2003, 04:04 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianscot
Remember how great the last Olympics were? Give the skill players room and watch the game improve.
In my opinion the main reason the Olympics were great was because of the concentration of talent. Put the NHL's 30 teams on that ice and the tacticians like Lemaire and Burns will have a field day. It will make positioning, defence, following a system way more important.

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09-22-2003, 04:28 AM
  #29
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I think that scoring isn't so much as down now, but was ridiculously inflated in the 80's, and the beginning of the '90's. I think that time-period was the aberration, and that things are just returning to normal, now.

I think better goaltending, team's commitments to defense and some interesting officiating are all contributing factors, as well.

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09-22-2003, 05:25 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looger
In my opinion the main reason the Olympics were great was because of the concentration of talent. Put the NHL's 30 teams on that ice and the tacticians like Lemaire and Burns will have a field day. It will make positioning, defence, following a system way more important.

You are quite correct in asserting that positioning is vital.

I do believe, however, that the rink dimensions greatly enable the trap and much clutch and grab play.

Its hard to trap what you cant catch. A broader surface would negate the AHL level cloggers that fill out most teams rosters.

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09-22-2003, 06:28 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by monkey_00
Why do you think the scoring is down in the NHL compared to how it was back in the 1980s and early 1990s?.........Comments, suggestions, and/OR Opinions..........Let's hear what you have to say about the downturn in NHL scoring.

#1. Far and away the biggest reason is the quality of goaltending. Goalies of today have improved much more than the skaters in the league over the past 20 years.

#2. Coaching, systems designed to play great defense that can keep you in every game.

#2. European invasion, league now has much more depth than it did before. Even in the 21 team league there were always 4-5 teams that were just brutal, that you could rack up some big scoring nights. Also even the good teams had 4th line guys and 5th & 6th defenseman that were poor players that could be abused by the star players from other teams.

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09-22-2003, 06:29 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianscot
You are quite correct in asserting that positioning is vital.

I do believe, however, that the rink dimensions greatly enable the trap and much clutch and grab play.

Its hard to trap what you cant catch. A broader surface would negate the AHL level cloggers that fill out most teams rosters.
I'd like to say, I hope you are correct. That would make the situation relatively easy to fix. Personally I think the clutching and grabbing hit a climax in the mid-90s and was largely a reactionary measure by brand new teams with no talent base yet (florida...) that were sick of getting pasted nightly by teams that had nick polano-style connections and deep rosters. san jose really did a number on calgary and detroit, for example, in the playoffs as a dark horse, beating severely superior teams in terms of talent. especially detroit. man was that outrageous!

if it's as simple as widening the ice, then i say at least spend a few bucks to have it tried out in ahl exhibition in olympic rinks in north america or something - are there enough rinks for a few games to test the theory? this would let the ahl coaching, which is at or near nhl-level in my opinion, get used to it and exploit it one way or the other.

i think a 100-game tryout would tell us what the possibilities are, some teams like last year's bulldogs and aeros could take on an nhl club in my opinion and at least compete.

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09-22-2003, 08:03 AM
  #33
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I agree with much of what is being said but the thing that troubles me. If all this is true is why is a guy like Mario still kicking ass (if you go by pts/gm). He's older slower and you have younger faster more skilled players.

Granted Mario or Gretzky were never your run of the mill players to put it lightly but if everyone is so much more skilled today theortically you should still be cranking out a few Mario class players still.

Here's my stab at why nobody's seeing the next great player come along. It's easier to teach defense than offense and successful coachs being control freaks by defenition want to control what's happening on the ice. Don Cherry wasn't a great coach, he was a great coach for Bobby Orr. He's pretty much said "I put him out on the ice and just watched him go".

The old story that you can't learn offense is BS. It's just that you can't teach it very easily. Player's need time to develope their offensive game and figure out what works and what dosn't work for them instead of being taught how anyone can play well (read defense or systems hockey).

In my opinion Paul Coffey, Mark Messier were no better than say Scott Neidermayer and Claude Lemieux(if he dropped the gloves). The biggest difference was that they were give the oppurtunity to play with Gretzky and learned how to make things happen on the ice and take chances.

This is why you still see the best Canadian players coming from small cities and not big cities like Toronto that have very serious well coached leagues with strict training regiments at very young ages.

As to which system of hockey I think is better ask the 91 Minnesota Norther Stars or the 96 Florida Panthers.

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09-22-2003, 09:01 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy!
You know, I have never really understood this discussion because, in my mind at least (small as it might be ), there's really only one factor that's changed dramatically in the last 20 years or so.

Go back and watch a game from the 80's or before and you note that no one hooked, no one held, no one angled a player without the puck into the boards... Basically, the rules were enforced.
I'm not disagree with you on the interference issue, but I still think that way, way underestimating the change in goaltending.

If you have a chance, compare Patrick Roy in 86 to 2003. He literally took up HALF (an exaggaration) as much space in the nets. It's insane how much "bigger" goaltenders have become. I also think that goaltenders have improved the most over the last 15 years. Watch a game from the 80's, and it seemed that literally HALF the goals wouldn't likely be goals now. Shots that are incredibly low percentage shots now routinely went in back then.

I also remember Gretzky saying that back in the high scoring days that every team had at least 2 defenseman that couldn't really skate at the NHL level.

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09-22-2003, 10:21 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looger
so here's my question:

if the ice surface size is a problem, what happens when it's bigger?

teams play a one-man-in, four-men-back system. watch euro hockey. ugly stuff. reminds a lot of soccer. more wide open space makes coaches more cautious.
Conversely, a larger ice surface will give skill players more room to operate and gain more speed through the neutral zone. All I know is, the ice surface size looked perfect for NHL players at the last Olympics.

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09-22-2003, 10:36 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by West
I agree with much of what is being said but the thing that troubles me. If all this is true is why is a guy like Mario still kicking ass (if you go by pts/gm). He's older slower and you have younger faster more skilled players.

Granted Mario or Gretzky were never your run of the mill players to put it lightly but if everyone is so much more skilled today theortically you should still be cranking out a few Mario class players still.
Fair question, but I respectfully disagree with your conclusion. The point is, Mario and #99 (and Howe, Orr and Richard) are almost universally mentioned when discussion of the GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME is raised. So, the idea that you should still be "cranking out" a few of their kind is not realistic, IMO. (As you yourself acknowledged, not your "run of the mill" players.)

There are many incredible talents in today's game, and there will come along, at some point, another player truly worthy of mention with that company. However, the guys mentioned above are immortals in the sport, the kind that come along once a generation. Which answers your original question about why #66 still excels.

Emerson once said that "to be great is to be misunderstood." Such is the case when a guy in his late 30s steps on the ice after a three-year hiatus and is still dominant. Defies common logic.

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09-22-2003, 10:58 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by West

This is why you still see the best Canadian players coming from small cities and not big cities like Toronto that have very serious well coached leagues with strict training regiments at very young ages.
Interesting theory.... but I disagree.

Talent is talent, and it makes no difference where you're from. Guys like Gretzky(Brantford) and Lemieux(Montreal) grew up in large cities, or on the door step of one. The reality is, however, they became the players they are/were not because of where they lived or where they didn't live. The best players become great players because they're the ones who had the drive, will and desire to practice everyday, on their own, for hours on end without having been told to by a pushy parent or coach. As a coach I can tell you it's easy to spot who will become a good player because of their work habits. And the kids who practice on their own are the ones who advance the furthest. Gretzky once was quoted as saying that he always gets parents coming up to him and asking him to tell their kid to practice more. He says he refuses to do it because the kid has to want it on his own, not be forced by a parent whose lofty dreams of reaching the NHL never panned out.

These are the kids that go the furthest, but these kids do eventually move to the bigger cities to get the development they need to move to the higher levels. At a certain age kids do need to play at the highest level possible.

I do see what you're saying about making things too regimented for young players in the bigger cities. There's no question that too much coaching can become detrimental to development.

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09-22-2003, 11:26 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
The point is, Mario and #99 (and Howe, Orr and Richard) are almost universally mentioned when discussion of the GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME is raised. So, the idea that you should still be "cranking out" a few of their kind is not realistic, IMO. (As you yourself acknowledged, not your "run of the mill" players.)
If you look at how often the Mario's, Gretzky's, Orr's, Richard's, Howe's come along it's about one every decade or so. Since Mario burst on into the league nearly 20 yr's ago I'd say the question of where's the next great player is not unreasonable.

I'm not of the opinion that all players in the league suck, but asking why a 35+ year old dominates the league in pts/gm is a legit question.

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09-22-2003, 12:04 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HF2002
Interesting theory.... but I disagree.

Talent is talent, and it makes no difference where you're from. Guys like Gretzky(Brantford) and Lemieux(Montreal) grew up in large cities, or on the door step of one.
This was over twenty years ago I'm not old enough to say that I know for a fact but the quality for lack of a better word of coaching in lower levels has dramatically increased over the years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HF2002
The reality is, however, they became the players they are/were not because of where they lived or where they didn't live. The best players become great players because they're the ones who had the drive, will and desire to practice everyday, on their own, for hours on end without having been told to by a pushy parent or coach. As a coach I can tell you it's easy to spot who will become a good player because of their work habits. And the kids who practice on their own are the ones who advance the furthest. Gretzky once was quoted as saying that he always gets parents coming up to him and asking him to tell their kid to practice more. He says he refuses to do it because the kid has to want it on his own, not be forced by a parent whose lofty dreams of reaching the NHL never panned out.
I would agree with this but draw a different conclusion. It's the kids that develope on their own that succeed. You don't see many kids out on a rink alone praticing systems it's the kids that pratice the stickhandling shooting puckhandling and making the passes that their coaches would bench them for trying, and I'll grant you it's easier to do this in smaller cities where their's more outdoor rinks per capita. While coach's teach young players many important skills they also teach you to stay in your position and make the easy safe play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HF2002
These are the kids that go the furthest, but these kids do eventually move to the bigger cities to get the development they need to move to the higher levels. At a certain age kids do need to play at the highest level possible.
I 100% agree that players should stay at a level that chalenges but I would also say that you don't bump a kid up to the next level while he is still developing at a lower level. This is a hard thing to tell who knows for sure if a kid playing at a lower level could say double his point production, but if he could I'd say that his long term development would be much better off than putting him in the next level up (plus he'd have alot more fun and likely pratice more and have more confidence moving up to the next level the year after).

Quote:
Originally Posted by HF2002
I do see what you're saying about making things too regimented for young players in the bigger cities. There's no question that too much coaching can become detrimental to development.
Alot of this is based on my own experiences (just for the record I sucked as a hockey player) with hockey and chapter in a book about the Oilers (Glory Barons). A chapter goes on about this incredibly skilled player who was a Leaf's prospect back in 40's or something. He'd rip it up in the AHL they'd call him up and he'd score a ton. They'd start telling him to skate up and down his wing and his scoring would dry up and he'd get sent back down. He'd play how he wanted in the AHL again and rip it up. The guy in the book compares him to Gretzky during the entire chapter and asks the question what would have happened if Gretzky ran into coaches like that his entire career.

If you ask me who the next great player is I'd have half a mind to say it was Paul Kariya and it's a shame that they didn't build a team around him and really let him play his game. Outside of him I don't think I've seen anyone that comes close to measuring up yet.

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Old
09-22-2003, 12:34 PM
  #40
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Does anyone remember that dozen plus or so games last year to start the season where the refs were calling penalties? The Penguins were the toast of town, moving the puck all over the ice and creating scoring opportunities. Then the league pulled the rug out from under the refs and it all went back. I think it's pretty easy to see that the officiating is a major cause of the game being slowed down.

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09-22-2003, 12:55 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by GoCoyotes
Does anyone remember that dozen plus or so games last year to start the season where the refs were calling penalties? The Penguins were the toast of town, moving the puck all over the ice and creating scoring opportunities. Then the league pulled the rug out from under the refs and it all went back. I think it's pretty easy to see that the officiating is a major cause of the game being slowed down.
i agree somewhat, the officiating (or lack thereof) is a major factor in the dearth of offense.

i can't bring myself to 'blame' the coaches for calling for it, they are just trying to win. and when you're playing lemieux (especially this season), you hang players from his jersey like drapes if you think you can get away with it.

he'll still average over 1 ppg, though...

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09-22-2003, 02:54 PM
  #42
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I don't understand how # of the goals makes game interesting...

I've seen alot of 2-1 , 3-2 or even 1-0 games that were more exciting and interesting than stupid 7-6 or 12-2 games we've seen last year!
For me everything counts good G, D and O. In fact I prefer close games.

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