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*ALL* Luongo Talk (News/Speculation/Rumors/Proposals)

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Old
01-10-2013, 07:31 PM
  #376
var
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Not only in this proposal, but in most TO fans proposals, there's a large misunderstanding of what represents value for Vancouver. Vancouver is a mostly finished team. Getting perspective on what Gillis is looking to acquire is easy. So far, Gillis has been targeting prospects that have a shot at being useful down the road because again, there's not much useful to Van as a mostly finished team. Bozak might be the only one that could work, but there are a few large downsides to his usefulness in Van - first is that he's UFA at the end of the season so his value is low as a rental, second is that he's only mostly useful only until Kesler comes back (so if you figure Van for a playoff team, it's hard to see how Bozak fits in), and finally he would only really fit on the third line and honestly, between him and faceoff-Manny, it's not even that clear. The main reason why he's included in most trades is that leaf fans aren't that big on him and they're hoping Vancouver magically will.

Van is after the best prospects the team can get for Lu and even though that's uncomfortable, it's what Vancouver will value. Giving up value to get value, there's no free ride. Don't let people fool you with the contract either, it's usually a better contract than most people realize.

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Old
01-10-2013, 07:32 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
Then I still say no, and also say another fan already gave that offer, that wasn't a counter.
And I'm sure if we look through the 30 other Luongo threads a Canuck fan suggested a return for Lu that was worth less than that proposal. Does that mean all other proposals should be ignored?

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Old
01-10-2013, 07:33 PM
  #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
What are your thoughts on my latest offer.

Bozak + Kadri + Franson + Scrivens

for

Weise + Ballard + Luongo


???
woah, woah woah. Weise is an untouchable. He's the gRetzky of the netherlands.

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01-10-2013, 07:33 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
With a shortened season, things are more imperative than normal. It's important for all teams to get the best adavantage they can going into the playoffs. Vancouver has a large incentive to trade Luongo now, as oppossed to the deadline, even if the return is less.
No, we do not. Kesler will not miss any considerable time to value selling Luongo short for Bozak. You really need to appreciate we have a better understanding of our team than you do. Shocking, I know but accept that. Even if we did struggle a tad. There are not eight teams better than us to make it a concern.

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01-10-2013, 07:34 PM
  #380
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Lupul/JVR + 1st conditional on Leafs making the playoffs.

A lot of risk for both sides, but fair value, imo.

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01-10-2013, 07:34 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
They were probably drunk or high then. Unless one of Gauce/Jensen/Kassian were coming back our way.
Well we have gotten better offers from leaf fans fairly often I would say.

Also we would have to be drunk or high to make a trade like that involving one of our youngsters.

As has been pointed out

Bozak - UFA hold little value

Franson - unsigned RFA 6th defencman holds littls value

Scrivens - holds littls value as an unproven backup goalie who has ver limmited NHL action

Kadri - worth something

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01-10-2013, 07:34 PM
  #382
cyris
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
They were probably drunk or high then. Unless one of Gauce/Jensen/Kassian were coming back our way.
I dont like that trade proposal but it is probably closer to what the real return will be than what many leaf fans have proposed.

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01-10-2013, 07:36 PM
  #383
racerjoe
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Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
I dont like that trade proposal but it is probably closer to what the real return will be than what many leaf fans have proposed.
Which one are you talking about?

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01-10-2013, 07:36 PM
  #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Lupul/JVR + 1st conditional on Leafs making the playoffs.

A lot of risk for both sides, but fair value, imo.
JVR is near untouchable, he hasn't even played for us yet. I wouldn't be opposed to trading Lupul, but it has to be for someone better than Luongo simple as that, not necessarily talent wise, but contract, age etc.. rental or not.

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01-10-2013, 07:37 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by binop7 View Post
JVR is near untouchable, he hasn't even played for us yet. I wouldn't be opposed to trading Lupul, but it has to be for someone better than Luongo simple as that, rental or not.
Who the heck is better than Luongo that Lupul could be a centrepiece for?

Realistically Lupul has between 0.5-5 more seasons playing well for the Leafs, and Luongo would be a far bigger difference maker over that time.

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01-10-2013, 07:38 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
Which one are you talking about?
Bozak Kadri Finn 2nd.

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01-10-2013, 07:39 PM
  #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Who the heck is better than Luongo that Lupul could be a centrepiece for?

Realistically Lupul has between 0.5-5 more seasons playing well for the Leafs, and Luongo would be a far bigger difference maker over that time.
We should've sold high on Lupul already, I'm not convinced he can keep up his ppg pace, I meant contract wise, and I certainly am not giving up a 1st rounder for Lu either. No chance conditional or not.

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01-10-2013, 07:42 PM
  #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
Bozak Kadri Finn 2nd.
Thank you, as this has been pretty much what I have been suggesting, for like months. In terms of value, not the actual deal. I have been saying value of:

Roster player
Good prospect
1st

And it may vary depending on how good each piece is.

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01-10-2013, 07:42 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
No, we do not. Kesler will not miss any considerable time to value selling Luongo short for Bozak. You really need to appreciate we have a better understanding of our team than you do. Shocking, I know but accept that. Even if we did struggle a tad. There are not eight teams better than us to make it a concern.
Where are you getting that Kesler will not miss any "considerable time". A few weeks ago, his agent said he would be out for "months". Even six weeks is over 1/3 of the season. That's a conservative estimate following the "months" comments.

You don't think teams have traded assets like 2nd round picks to shore up holes caused by injury? You don't think the Canucks would be willing to downgrade their Luongo return to avoid playing without a 2nd line centre for a large stretch of the season?

A likely scenario is that Schroeder, who has never played an NHL game, will be given a chance at trading camp. When it becomes obvious that he is not ready, the Canucks will pull the trigger on a Luongo trade. This is the longest I see them holding onto Luongo.

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01-10-2013, 07:42 PM
  #390
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Cancuks should hold onto Luongo for this year (If it's indeed as possible as you guys say).

48 game season to be played in 99 days. That's pretty much a game every other day.

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01-10-2013, 07:42 PM
  #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by binop7 View Post
JVR is near untouchable, he hasn't even played for us yet. I wouldn't be opposed to trading Lupul, but it has to be for someone better than Luongo simple as that, not necessarily talent wise, but contract, age etc.. rental or not.
They are the only non-Kessel forwards that add anything other then what we have already. Anything else is a redundancy for roster forwards, which seem to be the way the Toronto fans want to go.

Youth is the only other thing that Toronto has that could interest us, and I don't mean Blacker/Ashton.

Evaluate our roster and tell me, exactly, where Kulemin, Bozak and MacArthur will land, and tell me they are worth a top 5 (arguably) or top 10 (not arguably) goalie. For every shot about his contract, including the presumed cap punishment, tell me how it is worse then having some one that is a flight risk after a condensed season as well, because Lupul and Bozak are exactly that, and Franson has proven he will play hardball if he doesn't get his way.

If we're picking apart players for the contract, I really don't think Toronto fans are in any holier-then-thou position for contracts vs. value.

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01-10-2013, 07:42 PM
  #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by var View Post
Not only in this proposal, but in most TO fans proposals, there's a large misunderstanding of what represents value for Vancouver. Vancouver is a mostly finished team. Getting perspective on what Gillis is looking to acquire is easy. So far, Gillis has been targeting prospects that have a shot at being useful down the road because again, there's not much useful to Van as a mostly finished team. Bozak might be the only one that could work, but there are a few large downsides to his usefulness in Van - first is that he's UFA at the end of the season so his value is low as a rental, second is that he's only mostly useful only until Kesler comes back (so if you figure Van for a playoff team, it's hard to see how Bozak fits in), and finally he would only really fit on the third line and honestly, between him and faceoff-Manny, it's not even that clear. The main reason why he's included in most trades is that leaf fans aren't that big on him and they're hoping Vancouver magically will.

Van is after the best prospects the team can get for Lu and even though that's uncomfortable, it's what Vancouver will value. Giving up value to get value, there's no free ride. Don't let people fool you with the contract either, it's usually a better contract than most people realize.
This is pretty much the only logical and sensible post I've read in all the Luongo threads.

You should post more.

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Old
01-10-2013, 07:45 PM
  #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
Bozak Kadri Finn 2nd.
I like Kadri (as a risky prospect) and Finn, and Bozak fills a hole for a little while, but personally, I don't think we'd do this. We get two prospects, one hopefully pulling it together soon and being a top six forward (of what ever position) and another that is projecting as a top 4 guy in a few years, along with our current crop of guys that should be coming in at that position soon, but I'm of a "win now" mind frame.

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01-10-2013, 07:47 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
They are the only non-Kessel forwards that add anything other then what we have already. Anything else is a redundancy for roster forwards, which seem to be the way the Toronto fans want to go.

Youth is the only other thing that Toronto has that could interest us, and I don't mean Blacker/Ashton.

Evaluate our roster and tell me, exactly, where Kulemin, Bozak and MacArthur will land, and tell me they are worth a top 5 (arguably) or top 10 (not arguably) goalie. For every shot about his contract, including the presumed cap punishment, tell me how it is worse then having some one that is a flight risk after a condensed season as well, because Lupul and Bozak are exactly that, and Franson has proven he will play hardball if he doesn't get his way.

If we're picking apart players for the contract, I really don't think Toronto fans are in any holier-then-thou position for contracts vs. value.
To get what you're describing you have to give up more than Luongo simple as that. Luongo isn't as valuable as he was 2 years ago.

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01-10-2013, 07:47 PM
  #395
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Originally Posted by ebey11 View Post
This is pretty much the only logical and sensible post I've read in all the Luongo threads.

You should post more.
I disagree with his assessment of what our needs are or what our GM is looking for, but it's argued passionately and respectfully, and he backs up his arguments. But I've quoted you to save space, ebey11, because I agree with the bolded.

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01-10-2013, 07:47 PM
  #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
Bozak Kadri Finn 2nd.
That's the one I was suggesting. I think it makes sence but I really like Kadri..

I really don't like JVR/Lupul plus a first, it's such a deep draft.

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01-10-2013, 07:48 PM
  #397
cyris
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
Thank you, as this has been pretty much what I have been suggesting, for like months. In terms of value, not the actual deal. I have been saying value of:

Roster player
Good prospect
1st

And it may vary depending on how good each piece is.
I agree with you for the most part. Our valuations are a little different but probably not as much as most others.

I see it at about
Bozak/Connolly/Franson/MacArthur
Kadri/Finn/Biggs/Percy
2nd/3rd

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01-10-2013, 07:49 PM
  #398
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Lupul/JVR + 1st conditional on Leafs making the playoffs.

A lot of risk for both sides, but fair value, imo.
Well, this post will likely create about 10 more pages of nothing. I've gotta stop checking these threads actually expecting some new information.

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01-10-2013, 07:49 PM
  #399
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Luongo = Bozak+Kadri
Ballard/Weise = Franson+Scrivens

Nope. Too little for Lu and Ballard, the latter of whom is better than Franson. I'm all for trading Ballard but we are not simply tossing him, unless the benefits outweigh the loss. This does not.

I want two of Kadri, Kulemin, Finn included; listed in order of preference. Short of that we are not receiving anything noteworthy. Frankly, all three plus a pick and we toss in Raymond.
It is better if Ballard is removed. For both sides.

I'd like to think the Leafs would have no interest in acquiring another offensive minded LHD. He'd be battling Gunnarsson, Gardiner and Liles for a spot on the left side, with Rielly on his way.

I wouldn't have any problem including both Kadri and Finn. Outside of Gardiner and Rielly I think Gillis will likely have the rest of the prospect pool to pick from.

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01-10-2013, 07:50 PM
  #400
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Originally Posted by binop7 View Post
To get what you're describing you have to give up more than Luongo simple as that. Luongo isn't as valuable as he was 2 years ago.
UFA players and third liners aren't worth an elite goalie either, regardless of what they were projected to be or did 2 years ago either though. It's give and take here.

What would you give for even a 50/50 chance at the playoffs, looking at the last 7? Or better yet, what would Bell, Rogers and Tannenbaum give? That's low on the odds I'd give Toronto with Lu.

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