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Old
01-11-2013, 07:48 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
When you subjected to it for 7 months, you obviously learn how to put on a good face.

Luongo deserves full credit for speaking highly of Gillis, and as I mentioned, I have a lot of respect for it. Gillis speaking highly of Luongo, is really just rubbing it in though.

From a respect standpoint, Nash & Howson's public feud gave at least some reason to subject Nash to being on the trade block for months. Luongo has done nothing to deserve this treatment from Gillis.


I know that Luongo has been subjected to trade speculation for 7 months now. There's absolutely no excuse for that as a GM, especially to a player who has acted with as much class as Luongo.
You can't trade during a lockout!

Youre making strange assumptions here just to make Gillis look bad here

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01-11-2013, 07:49 PM
  #377
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Of course there are but it seems to be that the majority of the fans representing said Calgary fanbase in this thread are asking for Gardiner. I'm going to tell you that I don't like the canucks and I know that the leafs are hated around the league also. So there's a lot of personal bias but I'll stick to my guns here and say that no chance the 1st, Gardiner, or rielly are included in any trade for Luongo. If that's Gillis' asking price we'll stick with reimer and scrivens and see if Carlyle will help decrease our gaa.


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01-11-2013, 07:50 PM
  #378
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I believe it will be straight across for Gardiner. Mind you, I don't think that is any great win for the Canucks because I believe Gardiner will be a career 2nd pairing defensemen.
It definitely won't be. Ill bet my first born on it. If Nonis first move is trade Gardiner for a 30+ goalie with 10 years left on his contract, then me and many other leafs fans will burn the ACC down.

Besides, he has stated many times he will only trade promising young players, for another promising young player that fills a need. Gardiner won't be traded. Period.

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01-11-2013, 07:50 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Chaz McNulty View Post
I believe it will be straight across for Gardiner. Mind you, I don't think that is any great win for the Canucks because I believe Gardiner will be a career 2nd pairing defensemen.
Gardiner has a way higher ceiling than a 2nd pairing defenseman watch him play some time

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01-11-2013, 07:50 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Hennig View Post
Can people stop referencing hockeysfuture.com like it's some sort of bible? It honestly makes you look like you don't watch any of these players at all and you only talk from your derriere. Whats more hilarious is how canucks fans are telling LEAF FANS how good their prospects are. Like really, I doubt any of you have watched more then 5 Marlies games this year. Whatever keep doing it, it's easier to note who's opinion to take seriously and who to throw on the ignore list.
Go pull up some of the Thomas Kaberle trade posts from Toronto fans and then tell me who overates their players. Where is that guy now?

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01-11-2013, 07:51 PM
  #381
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So why are there posters like y2kcanuck asking for gardiner+ because that's not going to happen. Or some posters asking for brayden schenn, couturier, bjustad, the list goes on. It paints a very frivolous picture of your fan base
Sorry, one poster out of how many? Both sides have posters posting outside what the census is. Can't blame either side for this.

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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
I understand identifying an organizational weakness and wanting to address it by adding prospects. What I don't understand is identifying handedness of prospects as a weakness. I've never heard a GM say "we were really looking to bolster our crop of right handed prospects so we picked up this guy" or "we really liked that prospect except for the fact that he was left handed, so in the end we decided to go with a different guy".
Fair enough. I agree I guess.

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01-11-2013, 07:51 PM
  #382
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Gardiner has a way higher ceiling than a 2nd pairing defenseman watch him play some time
I'll admit that on the Leafs he might crack the top pair.

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01-11-2013, 07:51 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
You can't trade during a lockout!

Youre making strange assumptions here just to make Gillis look bad here
I'm not making any assumptions. Schneider took over the #1 role in the playoffs, Luongo expressed a desire to leave Vancouver shortly after the season ended, and was classy enough to give Gillis the flexibility to "do whatever is in the team's best interest".

No, you can't trade during the lockout. But you can trade leading up to a lockout, knowing full well that if you don't, you will be subjecting that player to an indefinite time of being treated like cattle with no certainty towards his future.

Gillis decided he'd prefer Luongo to be uncertain about his future for the entire summer and duration of the lockout, instead of trading him prior to the lockout.

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01-11-2013, 07:53 PM
  #384
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Go pull up some of the Thomas Kaberle trade posts from Toronto fans and then tell me who overates their players. Where is that guy now?
People were telling us that we'd be lucky to get a 2nd rounder for Kaberle.

What did we get?

Colborne (former 1st round pick, looking like nothing special although)
Bruins 1st round pick
Bruins 2nd round pick(Flipped for Liles)

Lol, so what were you saying?

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01-11-2013, 07:53 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by BallHockeyLegend View Post
I used to want Luongo but the asking price scares me. If someone like Kadri or Gardner is traded for Luongo, I'd be really disappointed. I'd be willing to do something like Bozak, Cody Franson and a 2nd rounder but I'd still be hesitant because of the contract. When you Vancouver fans insist he's an elite goalie worth someone like Kadri or Gardner, that's when I completely bow out of the trade talks and hope to the Hockey Gods that Leafs management does as well.
Plus, who the hell are the Leafs competing with for his services? Who wants that crazy contract? And I don't want to give Bozak up for him either. If the Leafs ever got a first line centre, Bozak would make an excellent #3. Even with his shortcomings, his line was a very high scoring line last year. I hope Luongo ends up in Florida, who are offering what by the way?

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01-11-2013, 07:55 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Honestly... if you're going to undervalue Kadri to the point of calling him equal to Petrovic & Shore, there's really no way that you'll be satisfied with any deal with Toronto... so it's probably best that you stop suggesting them.

You just don't have the ability to fairly evaluate talent with regards to an organization that you obviously have personal issues with.
I'm not disagreeing with your assessment (yet) but what makes Kadri such a better prospect than Petrovic or Shore? Let's hear the argument.

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01-11-2013, 07:55 PM
  #387
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I'll admit that on the Leafs he might crack the top pair.
He's going to be a #2 defenseman, once he gets his defensive coverage forget about it the offense is already there.

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01-11-2013, 07:57 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
When you subjected to it for 7 months, you obviously learn how to put on a good face.

Luongo deserves full credit for speaking highly of Gillis, and as I mentioned, I have a lot of respect for it. Gillis speaking highly of Luongo, is really just rubbing it in though.

From a respect standpoint, Nash & Howson's public feud gave at least some reason to subject Nash to being on the trade block for months. Luongo has done nothing to deserve this treatment from Gillis.
You are probably right. I hear Gillis respectfully messages Luongo every day just to tell him, haha, I haven't traded you!

You are completely ignoring that zero trades can occur under a lockout and few occurred from the end of last season to the start of the lockout.

Now we will have to factor in if a reasonable market exists. If not, I see Luongo here until the trade deadline or offseason when a market to develop. Contrary to what you think, Luongo has stated he wants to do what is best for the team. He is a team guy and I respect his professionalism. Gillis isn't just holding out for an extra scrap. He wants to do well for both player and team.

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01-11-2013, 07:58 PM
  #389
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I'm not disagreeing with your assessment (yet) but what makes Kadri such a better prospect than Petrovic or Shore? Let's hear the argument.
In the case of both Shore & Petrovic... high end offensive ability. Kadri's shown it at every level, despite being grossly mishandled by the Leafs organization who tried to turn him into a grinder.

Obviously the offensive output is less important for a guy like Petrovic, but he doesn't exactly have the dominance level one would hope for with a 6'4 defenceman.

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01-11-2013, 07:59 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Yeah, that's because Gillis was intent on treating him like cattle... get the most out of his asset...the stress he endures doesn't matter. If Gillis was concerned about Luongo's best interest, he'd have traded him at the draft.

It's even worse than Scott Howson...who did similar things after Nash came out in the media and demanded a trade because of how bad his team was.
Man, has this topic ever turned you bitter.

Now you're slagging Gillis's tenure in Vancouver because nobody agree's with pretty much everything you're saying? This is sad.

Bozak is in no way better than Chris Higgins.
Connely only found a place on the Leafs because they had no other options.
Kadri has a ton of question marks around him, and is the definition of a boom bust high risk player, who would have an incredibly difficult time, even with Kesler out, finding a place on the Canucks

I don't understand Canuck fans who have even the lightest interest in any of these guys, and I certainly don't understand why you are insisting that these players have a great deal of value.

I doubt they have the equivalent value of a Mason Raymond, though that's debatable. Not saying TO should be throwing them away, but not every player on every roster shares the same value.

I can see why TO is interested in LUongo, because they have a need for him. But I don't see why Vancouver has any interest in trading him to TO as there is very little on the roster that they can use to upgrade what they already have ... unless you're talking about three or four players Toronto doesn't want to trade.

I'd much rather the CAnucks keep Luongo for another season, and then trade him for a pick in the offseason that return players that are of no use the team.

Saying what TO is offering is better than what Florida is offering is rather silly, because other than the pick I really don't see any of those guys making the Canucks better ... and that's with Kesler out.

Maybe it's best you just let go of the idea of getting Luongo .... it will probably make you a happier, less frustrated person.

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01-11-2013, 08:00 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
When you subjected to it for 7 months, you obviously learn how to put on a good face.

Luongo deserves full credit for speaking highly of Gillis, and as I mentioned, I have a lot of respect for it. Gillis speaking highly of Luongo, is really just rubbing it in though.

From a respect standpoint, Nash & Howson's public feud gave at least some reason to subject Nash to being on the trade block for months. Luongo has done nothing to deserve this treatment from Gillis.



Blue chip? Like we really need to get into that debate again. I'm comfortable in saying that there isn't a single prospect in the world of any sport that is a "blue chip". People generally aren't blue, and certainly aren't chips.

So even by this site, Kadri > Shore, Petrovic...

I know that Luongo has been subjected to trade speculation for 7 months now. There's absolutely no excuse for that as a GM, especially to a player who has acted with as much class as Luongo.



I've evaluated Bozak & Connolly as players who would fill Ryan Kesler's role while hurt, and then transition to the #3 centre. As for value, I don't really care whether you consider the non-Rielly prospect, or Connolly as the "centrepiece". Luongo is valuable, in terms of value to the Leafs, a little bit more than Connolly, Kadri, and a 2nd. Is he more valuable to another team? Maybe, if so, he should be traded there.
Like I said ask more people, my bet is the census is Kadri = Petro/Shore. I bet I have seen any of them play more than you have seen Petro and Shore combined.

How long has this lockout been going for? How much do you know about what any conversation has been with any of the key players? Yeah... Nonis was told he must trade for Lui... see I can make up things too based very loosely on facts.

Value in trade = what another team will pay. I don't care what his worth is to you, the bottom line is what a team will pay, my guess is a 3rd for Bozak, and less for Connolly.

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01-11-2013, 08:02 PM
  #392
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You are probably right. I hear Gillis respectfully messages Luongo every day just to tell him, haha, I haven't traded you!

You are completely ignoring that zero trades can occur under a lockout and few occurred from the end of last season to the start of the lockout.

Now we will have to factor in if a reasonable market exists. If not, I see Luongo here until the trade deadline or offseason when a market to develop. Contrary to what you think, Luongo has stated he wants to do what is best for the team. He is a team guy and I respect his professionalism. Gillis isn't just holding out for an extra scrap. He wants to do well for both player and team.
I'm not ignoring that trades cannot be made during the lockout. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Gillis knew a lockout was coming, knew that if he didn't trade Luongo before the lockout, that he would be subjected to the uncertainty for the indefinite amount of time that the lockout would last, and decided that it's better for him to leave Luongo in a position of uncertainty. Classy!

Gillis is absolutely holding out for that extra scrap... if he was truly concerned about doing what's best for the player, he would've asked Luongo where he wants to go, and as long as he's not taking "negative" value in return, traded him there promptly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quat View Post
Man, has this topic ever turned you bitter.

Now you're slagging Gillis's tenure in Vancouver because nobody agree's with pretty much everything you're saying? This is sad.

Bozak is in no way better than Chris Higgins.
Connely only found a place on the Leafs because they had no other options.
Kadri has a ton of question marks around him, and is the definition of a boom bust high risk player, who would have an incredibly difficult time, even with Kesler out, finding a place on the Canucks

I don't understand Canuck fans who have even the lightest interest in any of these guys, and I certainly don't understand why you are insisting that these players have a great deal of value.

I doubt they have the equivalent value of a Mason Raymond, though that's debatable. Not saying TO should be throwing them away, but not every player on every roster shares the same value.

I can see why TO is interested in LUongo, because they have a need for him. But I don't see why Vancouver has any interest in trading him to TO as there is very little on the roster that they can use to upgrade what they already have ... unless you're talking about three or four players Toronto doesn't want to trade.

I'd much rather the CAnucks keep Luongo for another season, and then trade him for a pick in the offseason that return players that are of no use the team.

Saying what TO is offering is better than what Florida is offering is rather silly, because other than the pick I really don't see any of those guys making the Canucks better ... and that's with Kesler out.

Maybe it's best you just let go of the idea of getting Luongo .... it will probably make you a happier, less frustrated person.
I'm not slagging his tenure, simply the notion that he's treated Luongo with any shed of respect or class in this debacle. There's absolutely no excuse in subjecting a player to 7 months on the trade block.

Connolly found his way to the Leafs because he was our best option. He was able to command $4.75m over 2 years because he would've been other team's best options at slightly lower prices.

Just for clarification... your intention is to keep him this year, accumulate more future cap liability, and take what can only be expected to be less in a deal at the end of the season?

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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
Like I said ask more people, my bet is the census is Kadri = Petro/Shore. I bet I have seen any of them play more than you have seen Petro and Shore combined.

How long has this lockout been going for? How much do you know about what any conversation has been with any of the key players? Yeah... Nonis was told he must trade for Lui... see I can make up things too based very loosely on facts.

Value in trade = what another team will pay. I don't care what his worth is to you, the bottom line is what a team will pay, my guess is a 3rd for Bozak, and less for Connolly.
There's only 1 thing that could've been said to Luongo before the lockout that would've forgiven Gillis -- "You're being traded to XXX on the day the lockout ends"... and if that had been said, I suspect that he wouldn't be in Vancouver right now.

Interesting.. so you'd rather have a 4th round pick and one of Manny Malhotra, Chris Higgin, or Maxim Lapiere centering the second line?


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01-11-2013, 08:02 PM
  #393
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Safe to assume Kadri would land in AV's doghouse right away.

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01-11-2013, 08:04 PM
  #394
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Not going to pretend I watch a lot of leafs games but I'm failing to see how Bozak is any sort of upgrade over our third liners (Raymond, Hansen, Higgins, Lappiere)

So when I ask myself would I trade Luongo for any of those guys the answer is a simple HELL NO!

The more I think about trading to the leafs the Canucks are going to come out the losers
If Schneider wins a Stanley Cup with the Canucks as a starter, they already win the trade because they unloaded a huge contract that would count against their cap for years to come.

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01-11-2013, 08:07 PM
  #395
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He's going to be a #2 defenseman, once he gets his defensive coverage forget about it the offense is already there.
The possibility is there, but that's all it is right now. I give him a high probability to be a second pairing defenseman, with a much slighter one to be a #2. I know on Vancouver he would have to go a long way to pass by Hamhuis and Edler as our number 2.

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01-11-2013, 08:09 PM
  #396
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So why are there posters like y2kcanuck asking for gardiner+ because that's not going to happen. Or some posters asking for brayden schenn, couturier, bjustad, the list goes on. It paints a very frivolous picture of your fan base
That isnt fair. You cant ask him to be responsible for every member of his fan base any more than someone should expect you to do the same for every member of our.

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01-11-2013, 08:12 PM
  #397
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I'm not ignoring that trades cannot be made during the lockout. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Gillis knew a lockout was coming, knew that if he didn't trade Luongo before the lockout, that he would be subjected to the uncertainty for the indefinite amount of time that the lockout would last, and decided that it's better for him to leave Luongo in a position of uncertainty. Classy!

Gillis is absolutely holding out for that extra scrap... if he was truly concerned about doing what's best for the player, he would've asked Luongo where he wants to go, and as long as he's not taking "negative" value in return, traded him there promptly.
You know nothing on how Luongo feels. If he was truly unhappy, like your Nash example, there would be media sniping. For all we know Luongo could have told Nonis that there is no way he will waive to go to Toronto, but that Gillis is free to discuss trades with them to help establish a market for him.

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01-11-2013, 08:12 PM
  #398
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People were telling us that we'd be lucky to get a 2nd rounder for Kaberle.

What did we get?

Colborne (former 1st round pick, looking like nothing special although)
Bruins 1st round pick
Bruins 2nd round pick(Flipped for Liles)

Lol, so what were you saying?
I'm telling you that he was way overvalued and that somehow Burke convinced another GM of this. Much the same way everyone is overvalueing Kadri and even Gartiner.

Anyone can look special on a crappy team.

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01-11-2013, 08:13 PM
  #399
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He's going to be a #2 defenseman, once he gets his defensive coverage forget about it the offense is already there.
you HOPE he will.

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01-11-2013, 08:13 PM
  #400
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I'm not ignoring that trades cannot be made during the lockout. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Gillis knew a lockout was coming, knew that if he didn't trade Luongo before the lockout, that he would be subjected to the uncertainty for the indefinite amount of time that the lockout would last, and decided that it's better for him to leave Luongo in a position of uncertainty. Classy!

Gillis is absolutely holding out for that extra scrap... if he was truly concerned about doing what's best for the player, he would've asked Luongo where he wants to go, and as long as he's not taking "negative" value in return, traded him there promptly.



I'm not slagging his tenure, simply the notion that he's treated Luongo with any shed of respect or class in this debacle. There's absolutely no excuse in subjecting a player to 7 months on the trade block.

Connolly found his way to the Leafs because he was our best option. He was able to command $4.75m over 2 years because he would've been other team's best options at slightly lower prices.
Seriously? Gillis has done nothing but give Luongo everything he's ever wanted. Built the team around the guy, fabulous contract running until he retires, and is doing his best to accommodate trading him. The fact that team and obviously Luongo, both feel he might do better with a fresh start suddenly means that Gillis MUST give Luongo away lest he get hurt by not knowing where he may go immediately?

More realistically, it seems like Luongo likes and respects Mike Gillis and the rest of the Canucks organization, and every action and word spoken by the guy suggests he wants to help the team as much as he can before he leaves.

In a shortened season like this, I doubt Luongo would be adverse to splitting duty with Schneider and having another chance at winning a cup here before he leaves.

I'm sure that Luongo knows this is a business and that's it's a tricky situation that make take some time to sort out. Personally, I see him coming to camp and having a lot of fun with the situation and with his friends on the team.

If the return is what you're offering, then clearly ... very clearly it's better for this team to keep Luongo for the rest of the season, regardless of the cap implications 8 years from now. I want the team to have the best chance of winning.

Yes, I would much rather have Schroeder or Higgins fill in on the top line than trading Luongo for any of Bozak, Kadri or Connolly. Is it the best solution? Probably not, but better than losing Luongo for players that don't help the team improve.


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