HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must use the RUMOR prefix in thread title. Proposals must contain the PROPOSAL prefix in the thread title.

*ALL* Luongo Talk (News/Speculation/Rumors/Proposals)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-11-2013, 10:55 PM
  #551
ShouldveDraftedFiala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,554
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
The salary dump coming the Canucks way has been pushed aside months ago. I don't think that will be an element in any Luongo trade. Unless a first round pick came along with that salary dump, I don't see Vancouver taking on salary.
Huh? Do you know nothing of the Aquilini's? We're a cap team, they'll spend to the max every year.

Forgot about the 10mil Sundin deal already?

ShouldveDraftedFiala is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 10:56 PM
  #552
Holy Mackinaw
Registered User
 
Holy Mackinaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: GTA, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,932
vCash: 500
Seeing where the Leafs seem to be headed and the fact there is no guarantee we would even resign him with Burke no longer the man, I might really be tempted to dangle Lupul straight up. Not sure the Canuck fans would do it, and I am sure I will be trashed by my fellow Leaf fans....

Holy Mackinaw is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 10:58 PM
  #553
StringerBell
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Hey, if you want MacArthur, that can certainly be arranged.

Even with Connolly/Lombardi/Komisarek coming off the cap, the Leafs have substantial raises to give and holes in their lineup to fill. Gunnarsson's up for a big time raise, as is Bozak. We're still short a second top 4 shutdown defenceman. We have to be in a position to pay more for Getzlaf than anybody else, and that's realistically not all going to work with more money in goaltending as well.

Plus, from a simple asset management perspective, keeping all of them is how you mismanage a cap. None of Kessel/Lupul/JvR/Kulemin/MacArthur belong outside of a top 6. Signing all 5 of them to be there only sets them up for failure, and will likely lead to them becoming deadweight. It's the same mistake Burke made with Komisarek & Phaneuf. With young guys like Kadri/Frattin, you can leave them in reduced rolls for longer, without having to live up to a big contract.

Basically, having a Kadri/Frattin in the lineup is what facilitates us committing all those dollars to Luongo, we can't lose both in a deal for him.

edit: The thing that I wonder... why you even want both. Presumably, you're going to play Kassian, you're going to play Hansen. You don't trade for a Kadri/Frattin without the intention of playing them.... That's 4 very inexperienced forwards in a lineup that's supposed to be contending for a cup.
If that's the case (which I would understand) then you'd have to swap Biggs in, not Ashton/2nd. He holds similar value to Kadri/Frattin, which Ashton/2nd don't, and would leave you with a guy who can contribute next year. If instead it's the value that you have a problem with then you might as well just admit it.

StringerBell is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 10:59 PM
  #554
StringerBell
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Mackinaw View Post
Well said. I wonder if that was more of a lack of experience than anything. That was his first real gig, right? Thoughts? Was he in over his head (besides the Lu deal?)
I think it's fair to say he was in a bit over his head. Should be better from that experience though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
The thing that I wonder... why you even want both. Presumably, you're going to play Kassian, you're going to play Hansen. You don't trade for a Kadri/Frattin without the intention of playing them.... That's 4 very inexperienced forwards in a lineup that's supposed to be contending for a cup.
Are you by chance confusing Hansen with Jensen?

StringerBell is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:03 PM
  #555
seanlinden
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 22,131
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
If that's the case (which I would understand) then you'd have to swap Biggs in, not Ashton/2nd. He holds similar value to Kadri/Frattin, which Ashton/2nd don't, and would leave you with a guy who can contribute next year. If instead it's the value that you have a problem with then you might as well just admit it.
Nope.

As mentioned, Biggs is valued as a first to us, and as one of our youngest prospects near the top of the depth chart, is too valuable to move in the same deal as Kadri.

What would have to happen is you'd have to accept a 2nd/Ashton, or trade Luongo elsewhere.

In any deal, it's always a question of value. Frattin/Kadri both deliver substantial value to us in the ability to play right away and challenge for a top 6 spot. Biggs delivers value in the sense that he's a project we can sit on for a couple of years (unlike most of our better prospects). The first holds value in the sense that it will lead to another Biggs-level prospect who we can sit on for a few years as well. We cannot part with more than 1 of those pieces in a Luongo deal.

seanlinden is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:06 PM
  #556
Peter Griffin
Registered User
 
Peter Griffin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,092
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Mackinaw View Post
Well said. I wonder if that was more of a lack of experience than anything. That was his first real gig, right? Thoughts? Was he in over his head (besides the Lu deal?)
Probably a safe assumption that Nonis was affected a bit by his lack of experience as "the guy", but he had worked for about 6 years under Burke in a very similar fashion as he has with the Leafs so he wasn't "green" so to speak. I wouldn't necessarily say he was in over his head, he's a competent GM, he just was never able to address the Canucks' biggest hole his entire time here, almost like he was afraid to make a big, bold move for fear of screwing up.

Peter Griffin is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:06 PM
  #557
Nuckles
Bleed Assets E'ryday
 
Nuckles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Benning's empty head
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,452
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
Leafs would be a playoff team, but I don't see them trading away 3 of their top young guys for 2 34 year olds. Getting better however.
So you want to keep all your top prospects and get really good NHL players as well?
You make it sound like it's possible. Why didn't Burke do that?

__________________

Fire Benning. Fire Linden. Fire Desjardins. Hire competent people.
Nuckles is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:06 PM
  #558
Ho Borvat
Registered User
 
Ho Borvat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Like I said, we have to be in a position where we can pay more than anyone else for Getz. If we're unable to get him, we're going to need young cheap assets to get another centre.

Kulemin's downside is that of an elite 3rd liner, but based on the fact that he's scored 30 goals in this league, anything less than 20 is going to be disappointment for the Leafs. The Leafs cannot go with the approach that a 3rd line player is all he's going to be. The expectation on him has to be close to his 30 goal year, with MacArthur being the odd man out as he's the least important and easiest one to replace of the 5.... so realistically, unless Kulemin fails again, MacArthur's gone after this year.

They'd become dead weight because those guys are going to sign contracts based on their value as top 6 players, but one will have to fall outside of that.

As I edited my post before...

The thing that I wonder... why you even want both. Presumably, you're going to play Kassian, you're going to play Hansen. You don't trade for a Kadri/Frattin without the intention of playing them.... That's 4 very inexperienced forwards in a lineup that's supposed to be contending for a cup.
So what do you do when you address your center issue, but there are no goalies available on the market?

So what about a team like Vancouver, who has guys like Higgins and Hansen on the 3rd line? I would consider them top-6 guys, yet their our 3rd line wingers (and what I would consider elite 3rd liners)

Are they dead weight because we have players ahead of them on the depth chart?


RE young players on the roster. We have 5 roster players who are on the last year of their deal.
(Malhotra, Lapierre, Higgins, Raymond, Weise).

Kassian is likely our 4th liner this year, and I would like to see Kadri get a chance as a playmaker for Keslers wing (we lack playmakers in the organization).

At the very least, we will have a hole at 3C this year and next. And Frattin likely slides in for Raymond/Higgins when the time comes.

Sedin Sedin Burrows
Booth Kadri Raymond (until Kes is back)
Hansen Lapierre Higgins
Malhotra with some combo of Weise/Kassian/Frattin

Ho Borvat is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:08 PM
  #559
cyris
On a Soma Holiday
 
cyris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 3rd Planet From Sun.
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,682
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
*Meant d-man.

Ive heard aging goalie to many times this thread
Fair enough. I think these threads have left us all a little weary.

cyris is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:12 PM
  #560
seanlinden
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 22,131
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
So what do you do when you address your center issue, but there are no goalies available on the market?

So what about a team like Vancouver, who has guys like Higgins and Hansen on the 3rd line? I would consider them top-6 guys, yet their our 3rd line wingers (and what I would consider elite 3rd liners)

Are they dead weight because we have players ahead of them on the depth chart?


RE young players on the roster. We have 5 roster players who are on the last year of their deal.
(Malhotra, Lapierre, Higgins, Raymond, Weise).

Kassian is likely our 4th liner this year, and I would like to see Kadri get a chance as a playmaker for Keslers wing (we lack playmakers in the organization).

At the very least, we will have a hole at 3C this year and next. And Frattin likely slides in for Raymond/Higgins when the time comes.

Sedin Sedin Burrows
Booth Kadri Raymond (until Kes is back)
Hansen Lapierre Higgins
Malhotra with some combo of Weise/Kassian/Frattin
We hope that James Reimer has developed into a quality #1, or make a goaltender available.

When Higgins/Hansen come up for new contracts, if they demand top 6 money, is when they risk becoming deadweight. Right now they're paid $1.3m and $1.9m -- third liners.

So you're not even slotting Frattin in to a healthy lineup... might as well stop asking for him then, we value him higher than that. Toronto is likely going to look for any way they can to move a forward for a defenceman or goaltender and make room for a Frattin/Kadri. As I've been saying from the beginning, it makes sense for 1 to go, not both. Vancouver's got room for 1, the Leafs definitely don't have room for 2, and are probably going to make a move that makes room for 1.

seanlinden is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:21 PM
  #561
TheLeastOfTheBunch
Franchise Centre
 
TheLeastOfTheBunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 37,491
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
So you want to keep all your top prospects and get really good NHL players as well?
You make it sound like it's possible. Why didn't Burke do that?
I am sure teams are lining up offering top prospects and picks for Luongo. I am surprised Gillis hasn't pulled the trigger on any of them.

TheLeastOfTheBunch is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:24 PM
  #562
MajorCanuck
Cup Please
 
MajorCanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Surrey, BC
Posts: 689
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
I am sure teams are lining up offering top prospects and picks for Luongo. I am surprised Gillis hasn't pulled the trigger on any of them.
He can't until the CBA is offically ratified by both sides

MajorCanuck is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:27 PM
  #563
Ho Borvat
Registered User
 
Ho Borvat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
We hope that James Reimer has developed into a quality #1, or make a goaltender available.

When Higgins/Hansen come up for new contracts, if they demand top 6 money, is when they risk becoming deadweight. Right now they're paid $1.3m and $1.9m -- third liners.

So you're not even slotting Frattin in to a healthy lineup... might as well stop asking for him then, we value him higher than that. Toronto is likely going to look for any way they can to move a forward for a defenceman or goaltender and make room for a Frattin/Kadri. As I've been saying from the beginning, it makes sense for 1 to go, not both. Vancouver's got room for 1, the Leafs definitely don't have room for 2, and are probably going to make a move that makes room for 1.
And if Reimer isn't that? And if there aren't any available? How long have the Leafs been looking for a #1 center and #1 goalie? These players are rarely made available. At least your getting 50% of the problem out of the way now.

Would you rather have Luongo today, and a 1st line center 2 years from now, or a 1st line center 2 years from now and no goalie?

This is based onto this year, Frattin then takes a spot from Raymond/Higgins (or if Booth is traded/bought out). Thats 3 "top-6" wingers who could easily not be part of the team next year.
*not saying I think all 3 will be gone, but 3 potential openings.

If the issue is that you don't want to deal both Kadri and Frattin because of potential roster spots, why not switch Frattin with Biggs? You keep Frattin on the team, in exchange for a younger prospect whos further away from contributing?

Ho Borvat is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:29 PM
  #564
Ho Borvat
Registered User
 
Ho Borvat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
I am sure teams are lining up offering top prospects and picks for Luongo. I am surprised Gillis hasn't pulled the trigger on any of them.
Besides, picking between Couturier, Bjugstad, Reilly, and Gretzky + a time machine is hard

Ho Borvat is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:34 PM
  #565
StringerBell
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
And if Reimer isn't that? And if there aren't any available? How long have the Leafs been looking for a #1 center and #1 goalie? These players are rarely made available. At least your getting 50% of the problem out of the way now.

Would you rather have Luongo today, and a 1st line center 2 years from now, or a 1st line center 2 years from now and no goalie?

This is based onto this year, Frattin then takes a spot from Raymond/Higgins (or if Booth is traded/bought out). Thats 3 "top-6" wingers who could easily not be part of the team next year.
*not saying I think all 3 will be gone, but 3 potential openings.

If the issue is that you don't want to deal both Kadri and Frattin because of potential roster spots, why not switch Frattin with Biggs? You keep Frattin on the team, in exchange for a younger prospect whos further away from contributing?
That's what I said. Seems clear his issue is with the value.

StringerBell is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:39 PM
  #566
Ho Borvat
Registered User
 
Ho Borvat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
That's what I said. Seems clear his issue is with the value.
It seemed like people didn't mind
- Kadri, Frattin, Finn (I think there was talk of Connolly)

We've heard a lot about Kadri + Gardiner, but I was saying earlier Finn + seems like a good consolation prize to Gillis.

Gillis is probably asking for Kadri + Gardiner
I can see Nonis offering Kadri + Finn, and I see them meeting in the middle with a + like Frattin.

Ho Borvat is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:49 PM
  #567
GardinerExpressway
Registered User
 
GardinerExpressway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 347
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
So you want to keep all your top prospects and get really good NHL players as well?
You make it sound like it's possible. Why didn't Burke do that?
... um ... he sort of did (NB: Phaneuf, Lupul/Gardiner, Kaberle trades ...). The only trade where Burke sent a strong young asset the other way was the JVR/Schenn deal and we got an equally talented and young piece back (fingers crossed). It just takes time to find the right dancing partner. If it's true that Burkey was fired for not acquiescing to a ridiculous valuation from Gillis, then I won't be the only one face-palming the result.

GardinerExpressway is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:52 PM
  #568
Ho Borvat
Registered User
 
Ho Borvat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GardinerExpressway View Post
... um ... he sort of did (NB: Phaneuf, Lupul/Gardiner, Kaberle trades ...). The only trade where Burke sent a strong young asset the other way was the JVR/Schenn deal and we got an equally talented and young piece back (fingers crossed). It just takes time to find the right dancing partner. If it's true that Burkey was fired for not acquiescing to a ridiculous valuation from Gillis, then I won't be the only one face-palming the result.
I've got a feeling it was more of an issue w/ egos clashing and not a Luongo problem.
Ownership probably wanted a "yes-man" and Burke doesn't exactly give me that vibe.

Ho Borvat is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:55 PM
  #569
var
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
I've got a feeling it was more of an issue w/ egos clashing and not a Luongo problem.
Ownership probably wanted a "yes-man" and Burke doesn't exactly give me that vibe.
Good observation.

var is offline  
Old
01-11-2013, 11:58 PM
  #570
Ho Borvat
Registered User
 
Ho Borvat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by var View Post
Good observation.
The Luongo thing is just convient. It could be true... but I doubt it.

Ho Borvat is offline  
Old
01-12-2013, 12:06 AM
  #571
GardinerExpressway
Registered User
 
GardinerExpressway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 347
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
And if Reimer isn't that? And if there aren't any available? How long have the Leafs been looking for a #1 center and #1 goalie? These players are rarely made available. At least your getting 50% of the problem out of the way now.

Would you rather have Luongo today, and a 1st line center 2 years from now, or a 1st line center 2 years from now and no goalie?

This is based onto this year, Frattin then takes a spot from Raymond/Higgins (or if Booth is traded/bought out). Thats 3 "top-6" wingers who could easily not be part of the team next year.
*not saying I think all 3 will be gone, but 3 potential openings.

If the issue is that you don't want to deal both Kadri and Frattin because of potential roster spots, why not switch Frattin with Biggs? You keep Frattin on the team, in exchange for a younger prospect whos further away from contributing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
That's what I said. Seems clear his issue is with the value.
As to these two posts (and I can't believe you have me defending seanlinden after the messes I've watched him create on our own board, lol), he wasn't talking value I think he's happy to concede that from a value perspective Kadri/Frattin is right and Kadri/Biggs is equally right, the problem is where temporally these players all fit within our development system and needs.

We need one of Kadri/Frattin to play in the lineup right now, we equally need the kind of prospects that aren't going to play in the lineup for a few years while we sort out who will be where in the meanwhile so that when they join the lineup (along with this year's first perhaps) they don't cost so much that we can't keep everyone we want to ... including Luongo. Long story short, Luongo's salary makes it necessary to plan much further ahead in terms of young/cheap assets to fit within the cap system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
It seemed like people didn't mind
- Kadri, Frattin, Finn (I think there was talk of Connolly)

We've heard a lot about Kadri + Gardiner, but I was saying earlier Finn + seems like a good consolation prize to Gillis.

Gillis is probably asking for Kadri + Gardiner
I can see Nonis offering Kadri + Finn, and I see them meeting in the middle with a + like Frattin.
I don't know who "didn't mind" this valuation, but I think this is exorbitant. Three assets of that caliber bring us back into the "Kessel trade" territory (not what it ended up being, what it was at the time of transacting) ... if that's the price for Luongo at his age/contract, then I wish him all the best in Florida. I'd much rather keep the assets we have, draft another, hopefully take advantage of our financial position this summer re UFAs now that we are on equal footing with everyone else (see: Burke isn't instituting ridiculous extra rules upon us exclusively), and go from there.

GardinerExpressway is offline  
Old
01-12-2013, 12:17 AM
  #572
Ho Borvat
Registered User
 
Ho Borvat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GardinerExpressway View Post
As to these two posts (and I can't believe you have me defending seanlinden after the messes I've watched him create on our own board, lol), he wasn't talking value I think he's happy to concede that from a value perspective Kadri/Frattin is right and Kadri/Biggs is equally right, the problem is where temporally these players all fit within our development system and needs.

We need one of Kadri/Frattin to play in the lineup right now, we equally need the kind of prospects that aren't going to play in the lineup for a few years while we sort out who will be where in the meanwhile so that when they join the lineup (along with this year's first perhaps) they don't cost so much that we can't keep everyone we want to ... including Luongo. Long story short, Luongo's salary makes it necessary to plan much further ahead in terms of young/cheap assets to fit within the cap system.



I don't know who "didn't mind" this valuation, but I think this is exorbitant. Three assets of that caliber bring us back into the "Kessel trade" territory (not what it ended up being, what it was at the time of transacting) ... if that's the price for Luongo at his age/contract, then I wish him all the best in Florida. I'd much rather keep the assets we have, draft another, hopefully take advantage of our financial position this summer re UFAs now that we are on equal footing with everyone else (see: Burke isn't instituting ridiculous extra rules upon us exclusively), and go from there.
liferleaf, hennig and stats101 all approved of the deal.

Even SeanLinden was saying "it was close swap Frattin for a 2nd" so its like were a Jake Gardiner away in valuation (like we were throughout this thread).


Most people seem fine with a "Kadri + Finn + _________" I think
(Like I was saying before, I think Gillis is asking for Gardiner + Kadri, and Nonis will offer Finn as a consolation prize, and they will come up with a deal around Kadri + Finn + ____)

Ho Borvat is offline  
Old
01-12-2013, 12:30 AM
  #573
x94Galchenyuk94x*
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 175
vCash: 500
I sure hope they don't give up Finn . Toronto boy who projects very well.

x94Galchenyuk94x* is offline  
Old
01-12-2013, 12:36 AM
  #574
RECsGuy*
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,481
vCash: 500
Any new rumblings?

RECsGuy* is offline  
Old
01-12-2013, 12:37 AM
  #575
Bourne Endeavor
Registered User
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 33,440
vCash: 178
Just for reference sake, since Seanlinden brought it up. Our ideal future roster would be:

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Jensen - Kesler - Kassian
Frattin - Kadri - Hansen
(combination of plugs)

Both Higgins and Lapierre are liable to retained for a few more years, especially in the event some aren't ready to make that leap quite yet but may price themselves out of our interest. The intent is to build for a future without the Sedins and Burrows, all of whom are not getting any younger. Kadri/Frattin/Kassian will probably send some time in the minors to get adjusted to our system and style. In any case, this opens up trade potential down the road.

Luongo may well be our organization's most defining trade this decade. We want to make certain it helps us in a meaningful way; futures or impact roster player.

Edit: Keep in mind, Vancouver tends to employ the "Detroit model" with prospects. What Toronto considers NHL ready may differ with us.

Bourne Endeavor is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:13 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.