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*ALL* Luongo Talk (News/Speculation/Rumors/Proposals)

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Old
01-11-2013, 04:40 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
It's certainly not an irrelevant issue and this has been borne out by many teams scrambling to get right handed shots for much of the last decade. You will hear lots of players say they are far more comfortable on one side (Garrison) and some players that cannot play their off side at all (Bryan Allen). Jovo was a guy who preferred the right side. Error-hoff could go either way.

It matters....it's just not life threatening. :-)

Carolina and Nashville loaded up on them. Nobody else did.
As a developed NHL player I agree it would play an issue. However when acquiring a raw prospect there are many, many issues related to development that I would consider more important than what hand he shoots with.

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01-11-2013, 04:40 PM
  #202
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Raymond drives wide, takes a bad angle shot, and falls

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01-11-2013, 04:41 PM
  #203
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This is friggin' Mason Raymond and Tyler Bozak we're talking about. Who cares who's better. The difference between the two is incremental

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01-11-2013, 04:42 PM
  #204
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I'm not quite understanding how Vancouver fans are using the Leafs missing the playoffs as ammunition against us.

Luongo is a great goalie and I'd genuinely be excited if the Leafs landed him. I'd even be willing to give up a guy like Kadri and/or Colborne along with some other pieces... But the penalties for a contract like that in this new CBA take a LOT of power away from Gillis' negotiating stance. I'm not quite sure most of you understand the actual penalties a team has to incur once Roberto retires with multiple years left on his contract.

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01-11-2013, 04:42 PM
  #205
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True. Here's an interesting exercise. Have a fan of any team take a look at their propsect pool from three years ago and compare it today. I bet lamost every fan will say their prospect pool has improved. Why? Because they all still have 'potential'. The reality is that for most teams most prospects never make a significant contribution. Once you get past the first round picks that ratio becomes even worse. I forget the ratio of second and third round picks who actually play a meaningful number of NHL games but it's surprisingly low.
Very true. Even first round picks rarely reach full potential. There is a reason this website has that letter next to the numerical rating. I see people on the Vancouver section pencilling in Jensen, Kassian, Schroeder and Gaunce in our top 9 in the next few years. I'd be happy if two of those even made the second and third lines within the next few seasons. Corrado has been a great late round pick, but placing him anywhere beyond a 4-7 role on the Canucks within 3 years is a pipe dream. He is still iffy to even make it.

Realized potential to me is almost always more valuable than future potential, but on this website it is rarely the case.

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01-11-2013, 04:43 PM
  #206
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Raymond is one of those guys that the fans don't want, but coaches would love to have.

He's very coachable, very fast and plays hard at both ends. He's constantly using his speed to back-check and break up plays, usually coming from nowhere to catch people. Add to that he should be able to score 20 goals in the right situation pretty easily, and I'm sure lots of coaches would want him on their team. Does the little things that fans usually miss. He's not super valuable or anything, but he's far from "useless" or "terrible." Same with Bozak. Look past the stat sheets sometimes folks...

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01-11-2013, 04:43 PM
  #207
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Not going to pretend I watch a lot of leafs games but I'm failing to see how Bozak is any sort of upgrade over our third liners (Raymond, Hansen, Higgins, Lappiere)

So when I ask myself would I trade Luongo for any of those guys the answer is a simple HELL NO!

The more I think about trading to the leafs the Canucks are going to come out the losers

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01-11-2013, 04:44 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Scoogs View Post
I'm not quite understanding how Vancouver fans are using the Leafs missing the playoffs as ammunition against us.

Luongo is a great goalie and I'd genuinely be excited if the Leafs landed him. I'd even be willing to give up a guy like Kadri and/or Colborne along with some other pieces... But the penalties for a contract like that in this new CBA take a LOT of power away from Gillis' negotiating stance. I'm not quite sure most of you understand the actual penalties a team has to incur once Roberto retires with multiple years left on his contract.
A 2 mil cap penalty 7 years in the future isn't exactly game-changing value, especially with the salary cap likely much higher.

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01-11-2013, 04:47 PM
  #209
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I'm not saying I prefer him only because of his handedness. I'm saying I prefer him because he's a great prospect, and fills a need for us. If he played only the left side, there would be no room for him on our roster whatsoever, and I would instead prefer to target a player like Howden, who I value similarly, but would make a bigger impact to us over a LHD.

If there are two players, relatively similar in value, obviously you take the one that fills a greater need. You could also add minor pieces to make up for the difference in calibre. That's why, I would, for example, prefer Petrovic + 1st to Bjugstad + 2nd.
This is what I don't agree with, but I'm not going to try and convince anyone to agree with me.

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Either way, I think Petrovic is a better prospect than Shore.
Totally fair. They're both great prospects, just a difference in preference.

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01-11-2013, 04:47 PM
  #210
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They were never really our core. They were the best prospects in an admittedly weak prospect pool. We turned them into 2 of our best players and more prospects.
You are stretching here. Kulemin is not one of your 2 best players. If he is, you are in much worse shape than most think.

I never said they were your core. I said they were thought of to be the future core. That's similar to people projecting Kessel, Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, Gunnarson, Scrivens, Biggs and Frattin to be a future core (all aged under 24). 5 years from now we will see how many are still there.

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01-11-2013, 04:47 PM
  #211
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Raymond is one of those guys that the fans don't want, but coaches would love to have.

He's very coachable, very fast and plays hard at both ends. He's constantly using his speed to back-check and break up plays, usually coming from nowhere to catch people. Add to that he should be able to score 20 goals in the right situation pretty easily, and I'm sure lots of coaches would want him on their team. Does the little things that fans usually miss. He's not super valuable or anything, but he's far from "useless" or "terrible." Same with Bozak. Look past the stat sheets sometimes folks...
you need to watch bozak more

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01-11-2013, 04:48 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Raymond is one of those guys that the fans don't want, but coaches would love to have.

He's very coachable, very fast and plays hard at both ends. He's constantly using his speed to back-check and break up plays, usually coming from nowhere to catch people. Add to that he should be able to score 20 goals in the right situation pretty easily, and I'm sure lots of coaches would want him on their team. Does the little things that fans usually miss. He's not super valuable or anything, but he's far from "useless" or "terrible." Same with Bozak. Look past the stat sheets sometimes folks...
Well said. Toronto already has a glut of wingers so there would be no room for Raymond though. At this point, we have 7, maybe 8, capable wingers to fill 6 spots in the top-9.

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01-11-2013, 04:49 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Raymond is one of those guys that the fans don't want, but coaches would love to have.

He's very coachable, very fast and plays hard at both ends. He's constantly using his speed to back-check and break up plays, usually coming from nowhere to catch people. Add to that he should be able to score 20 goals in the right situation pretty easily, and I'm sure lots of coaches would want him on their team. Does the little things that fans usually miss. He's not super valuable or anything, but he's far from "useless" or "terrible." Same with Bozak. Look past the stat sheets sometimes folks...
I agree with this, being "coachable" has allowed Raymond to have he default open spot next to Kesler and booth for quite a while. Does the easy plays and such, but it's so easy to be unhappy with him as a fan and is often very fustration to watch.

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01-11-2013, 04:50 PM
  #214
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Very true. Even first round picks rarely reach full potential. There is a reason this website has that letter next to the numerical rating. I see people on the Vancouver section pencilling in Jensen, Kassian, Schroeder and Gaunce in our top 9 in the next few years. I'd be happy if two of those even made the second and third lines within the next few seasons. Corrado has been a great late round pick, but placing him anywhere beyond a 4-7 role on the Canucks within 3 years is a pipe dream. He is still iffy to even make it.

Realized potential to me is almost always more valuable than future potential, but on this website it is rarely the case.
A.) You have to pay for 'realized potential' (risk is gone and the value is 'known')
B.) You have to have a place for 'realized potential' to play in your current lineup
C.) You can't send 'realized potential' down to the farm team without clearing waivers
D.) 'Realized potential' may not be championship cailbre quality

etc.

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01-11-2013, 04:51 PM
  #215
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Not going to pretend I watch a lot of leafs games but I'm failing to see how Bozak is any sort of upgrade over our third liners (Raymond, Hansen, Higgins, Lappiere)

So when I ask myself would I trade Luongo for any of those guys the answer is a simple HELL NO!

The more I think about trading to the leafs the Canucks are going to come out the losers
The assumption is that Vancouver could use a center because Kesler is injured and Malhotra isn't as dependable after his injury. Question is, does Vancouver plan on giving Schroeder a full-time position at center and bump Lapierre up to the third line. What's Vancouver's center depth like after that?

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01-11-2013, 04:52 PM
  #216
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Well said. Toronto already has a glut of wingers so there would be no room for Raymond though. At this point, we have 7, maybe 8, capable wingers to fill 6 spots in the top-9.
We are in the same spot....thus the gigantic yawn for Kulemin, Lupul, Mac, etc.

I think we have established the poor fit between the teams beyond the obvious supply and demand for exactly one goalie.

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01-11-2013, 04:53 PM
  #217
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So from 8 players/prospects, you ended up with Phaneuf and Kulemin, plus another potential player. That's not great, but it's not bad either. So many people on this website expect 80% of their prospects to excel. None of those 8 became a star and turning them into Phaneuf alone is pretty decent.

I just can't see management being okay with 2-4 more seasons of missing the playoffs in Toronto. For a big market, the limit most franchises should find acceptable is five years, and that is based on going full rebuild.
Word from MLSE is that nobody expects playoffs this year and Nonis is not under any pressure to make playoffs. They also say that management likes this upcoming draft (read as they are ok with getting lottery pick this year and add talennt through the draft).

This negates any speculation that Leafs will include 1st round pick in trade for Lou. This team is simply not good enough to trade 1rp in the beginning of short season. management seems to finally get it.

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01-11-2013, 04:53 PM
  #218
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lol. the falling down.
You know, I'd like to see stats for how many penalties Raymond has drawn bc of this. Must be astronomical.

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01-11-2013, 04:55 PM
  #219
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From Luongo's own mouth (the Vancouver Province):

“If you asked me back (in May), I didn’t really think I’d be back for training camp,” Luongo said after his first skate this year with the Canucks.

“But as the summer progressed, I realized it was a possibility, and I embraced it.”
Luongo knows the possibilities covering where he may play next, including Toronto, Philadelphia, Edmonton and even Florida.
What he doesn’t know is how this is going to end.
“I wish I did,” he said. “You try to play it out in your mind. Most of the summer, I was trying to do that. But I came to the realization that there’s no use in doing something like that.”
“You just have to let it play out and let the chips fall where they may.
“I’m open to a lot of posibilities. I think me and Mike right now are on the same page about certain things. Until there’s an answer for me, I’ll just wait patiently.”

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01-11-2013, 04:56 PM
  #220
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The assumption is that Vancouver could use a center because Kesler is injured and Malhotra isn't as dependable after his injury. Question is, does Vancouver plan on giving Schroeder a full-time position at center and bump Lapierre up to the third line. What's Vancouver's center depth like after that?
We aren't looking for a top-6 centre, as Kesler's vacancy is only temporary. We want a physical, defensively strong 3C with some offensive capability. Not a soft, player who relies on playing with other talent to put up points.

It's like Raymond, he's fast and good defensively, but he doesn't have the size or physicality to make a good bottom-6 player.


So despite Raymond and Bozak's games being suited more to a top-6 role, no one wants players like them playing that role unless they really need to.

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01-11-2013, 04:59 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by mix1home View Post
Word from MLSE is that nobody expects playoffs this year and Nonis is not under any pressure to make playoffs. They also say that management likes this upcoming draft (read as they are ok with getting lottery pick this year and add talennt through the draft).

This negates any speculation that Leafs will include 1st round pick in trade for Lou. This team is simply not good enough to trade 1rp in the beginning of short season. management seems to finally get it.
It doesn't negate it in any way. I agree they'd prefer not to trade the 1st though. We'll see.

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01-11-2013, 05:02 PM
  #222
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We aren't looking for a top-6 centre, as Kesler's vacancy is only temporary. We want a physical, defensively strong 3C with some offensive capability. Not a soft, player who relies on playing with other talent to put up points.

It's like Raymond, he's fast and good defensively, but he doesn't have the size or physicality to make a good bottom-6 player.


So despite Raymond and Bozak's games being suited more to a top-6 role, no one wants players like them playing that role unless they really need to.
Raymond and Bozak can play on any line from 2-4 IMO. Raymond is best suited as a third line left winger. Can provide some offense. Can kill penalties. Can fill in on the second line. Can fill in on the right side. Handy player....but redundant when we have Sedin, Booth and Higgins.

Bozak is a tweener 2-3. When you have a guy like Kesler or Jordan Staal as a second line center you can easily have a Bozak centering an offensive third line and second unit PP.

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01-11-2013, 05:03 PM
  #223
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Fixed it for you.

Raymond > Bozak. In addition to playing competent defense, Raymond provides the fanbase with perpetual hilarity as he falls down once per shift. Can Bozak offer that? I think not.
Always wondered why Hartnelldown never tried to get in on #Raymonddown. Think of the aamount of money that could be raised!

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A 2 mil cap penalty 7 years in the future isn't exactly game-changing value, especially with the salary cap likely much higher.
Not to mention many also saying look a nagging injury ending a career...

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This is what I don't agree with, but I'm not going to try and convince anyone to agree with me.



Totally fair. They're both great prospects, just a difference in preference.

Seen you two argue for a bit, would like to say, I never look at where prospect fits now (unless they may make team this season). But when dealing with two prospects you value the same, for sake of argument lets say Howden vs Shore I look at prospect depth at each position. We are not deep at center prospect deep at the moment, but we are terrible at LW prospect depth. I would rather Howden, providing I find him of equal value as Shore.

For the record haven't seen enough of either to say who I like better.

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01-11-2013, 05:04 PM
  #224
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We aren't looking for a top-6 centre, as Kesler's vacancy is only temporary. We want a physical, defensively strong 3C with some offensive capability. Not a soft, player who relies on playing with other talent to put up points.

It's like Raymond, he's fast and good defensively, but he doesn't have the size or physicality to make a good bottom-6 player.


So despite Raymond and Bozak's games being suited more to a top-6 role, no one wants players like them playing that role unless they really need to.
They remind me of Matt Stajan. Useful, but not really a good fit anywhere.

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01-11-2013, 05:04 PM
  #225
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You honestly think getting a draft pick in 2013 will suddenly change your team? If Reimer fails now what?

The route you're planning to take is not a bad one, but it may be years before you see a playoff game yet alone winning anything. You'll need to stockpile picks and prospects
I think the idea is to keep our core players as it is (don't trade Kulemin and Frattin likes) and see if FA market this summer will see many high ticket players buyouts along with teams inability to sign their good players because they are up against the 64M cap.

All we need is #1C or great top 6 player (assuming moving VR to center experiment if we are out of playoffs by the middle of the season).

This season will evaluate our G situation and who knows what Gs are available in the summer?

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