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Yeah, I did, which is why I stand by my earlier remark. Making a horrible D into an abysmal one is an upgrade, yeah, but once again the team where he is a first pairing guy is a team with immense D issues.
Pretty much. Grossman is a solid player, decent top 4. On a contending team he'd be best used as a #5 with a lot of PK time etc. He's good enough for a top 4 role, but he's nowhere near top pairing.
Completely serious. Philadelphia got one of the worst D corps in the league since Pronger is not coming back. The fact that Grossmann is considered a top pairing D says a lot in how ****ing abysmal that D is.
There's one, maybe two or three, D corps I wouldn't take ahead of the Philadelphia setup, but they're a bottom 5 team in D at best.
List the 25 teams with better defensive corps? I'd love to see it.
Grossmann is there because that's the pairing, not because he's the second best defenseman on the team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCally
Pretty much. Grossman is a solid player, decent top 4. On a contending team he'd be best used as a #5 with a lot of PK time etc. He's good enough for a top 4 role, but he's nowhere near top pairing.
Then flip Timonen and Grossmann. Timonen-Coburn was a great pairing two years ago, but Timonen is a better partner for L. Schenn, and Grossmann and Coburn played well together.
Timonen-Coburn
Mezsaros-Schenn
Grossmann-___
is probably the line-up if everyone was definitely healthy and ready to go, and if you ignore pairing chemistry. (Grossmann and Schenn would simply be too slow to work together).
List the 25 teams with better defensive corps? I'd love to see it.
Grossmann is there because that's the pairing, not because he's the second best defenseman on the team.
I can list the teams with worse corps, it'll go quicker:
Toronto
Columbus
Those are probably the only teams I'd peg as "yup, definatively worse". I mean ****, it appears that Philly is trying to sign ****ing Foster to fill their D corps! I mean sure, they got injury issues(which further proves my point that ******* their D is **** now even if it'll get a bit better once the injuries heal up) but with players like Lilja and Foster in their D corps you can see something is really really bad for them.
And the fact remain that Grossmann is on the top pairing no matter what you excuse it with. If you can't find a better top pairing guy in your roster then you are going to have issues, especially with Bryzgalov in net.
List the 25 teams with better defensive corps? I'd love to see it.
Grossmann is there because that's the pairing, not because he's the second best defenseman on the team.
Then flip Timonen and Grossmann. Timonen-Coburn was a great pairing two years ago, but Timonen is a better partner for L. Schenn, and Grossmann and Coburn played well together.
Timonen-Coburn
Mezsaros-Schenn
Grossmann-___
is probably the line-up if everyone was definitely healthy and ready to go, and if you ignore pairing chemistry. (Grossmann and Schenn would simply be too slow to work together).
I can list the teams with worse corps, it'll go quicker:
Toronto Columbus
Those are probably the only teams I'd peg as "yup, definatively worse". I mean ****, it appears that Philly is trying to sign ****ing Foster to fill their D corps! I mean sure, they got injury issues(which further proves my point that ******* their D is **** now even if it'll get a bit better once the injuries heal up) but with players like Lilja and Foster in their D corps you can see something is really really bad for them.
And the fact remain that Grossmann is on the top pairing no matter what you excuse it with. If you can't find a better top pairing guy in your roster then you are going to have issues, especially with Bryzgalov in net.
Bolded not true.
Johnson - Wiz
Tyutin - Nikitin (they were ridiculously good last season, check advanced stats)
Aucoin - Moore
Savard, Erixon
etc.
Really good D. Goalie, nah. FWD's? Nah... although they'll be a pain in the a** to play against probably.
Flyers D is pretty good when Pronger is healthy, which he isn't. Then you factor in Mes injury as well and the loss of Carle. It's alright/mediocre right about now with all the injuries.
Yeah, I did, which is why I stand by my earlier remark. Making a horrible D into an abysmal one is an upgrade, yeah, but once again the team where he is a first pairing guy is a team with immense D issues.
Flyers don't have a first pairing or a second pairing, they put the guys out that match up the best. So the argument that Grossmann being on the "first" pairing says how bad the d core is doesn't really apply. If you wanna give labels you could say Coburn is a solid 2 on most teams, Kimmo even in his old age a #3 and Mez and Grossmann fill out the 4, 5 spots. The 6th spot would be Gus who if you watched the Pitts series last yr you would know is not a bad #6. I think its hard to say those players dont fit those labels. Flyers problem right now is that they don't have a number 1 so everyone has to slide up a spot so to speak. Now add Schenn to the mix.
Personnel isn't really the problem, our system is IMO.
Flyers don't have a first pairing or a second pairing, they put the guys out that match up the best. So the argument that Grossmann being on the "first" pairing says how bad the d core is doesn't really apply. If you wanna give labels you could say Coburn is a solid 2 on most teams, Kimmo even in his old age a #3 and Mez and Grossmann fill out the 4, 5 spots. The 6th spot would be Gus who if you watched the Pitts series last yr you would know is not a bad #6. I think its hard to say those players dont fit those labels. Flyers problem right now is that they don't have a number 1 so everyone has to slide up a spot so to speak. Now add Schenn to the mix.
Personnel isn't really the problem, our system is IMO.
I don't think some of the opinions being put forward are serious, so I wouldn't both.
The Flyers system exacerbates flaws in the personnel, and few teams could weather the (likely career-ending) injury to a Hall of Fame defenseman (even if one far from his prime) without some consequence.
That said, if you really think a team with Timonen, Coburn, Mezsaros, Schenn, and Grossmann is the worst or second worst personnel group in the league, I'm really not sure what to say.
Anyway, Rundblad would be a nice piece. Something around Read makes sense, at least from the Flyers perspective. The rest of this is a bit irrelevant to that question.
Yeah, I did, which is why I stand by my earlier remark. Making a horrible D into an abysmal one is an upgrade, yeah, but once again the team where he is a first pairing guy is a team with immense D issues.
Grossmann had a great year last year, stop trolling. Philly has a middle of the pack defense, around 15th
if you mean Connor Murphy I'm unfortunate to say no, probably not, due to Murphy's extreme injury problems. That dude just can't stay healthy and was just injured for the rest of the season again.
Shame, the kid had po. David is just a body and Homer would be shot if he moved Scheen for him.....yikes.
Flyers fan coming in here to say I agree with the argument that our defense isn't good. I don't think were bottom three, but were definitely below average, below 15th, anywho. I mean, we didn't have a good d core going into the playoffs last year, and, for as much flak as Matt Carle received on this board (me included) he was a serviceable top 4 defenseman. Adding Luke Schenn doesn't really help things, I mean, he was a healthy scratch for Toronto for goodness sake. Adding Schenn and losing Carle makes us worse then we were a few months ago. Plus, now Gustaffson is hurt.
I howebver, don't agree with the assesment that Grossmann is just a 5th-6th guy. Guy was fantastic for us last year, and was clearly our best defneseman down the stretch and into the playoffs. He had great chemistry with Coburn, which is why they're paired together in the predicted lineups.
Good first pairing, decent second pairing, workable third pairing. However, that entire first pairing is gone which moves everyone up two spaces(well, not O'Donnel). On top of that Meszaros is still injured, so that's two out of last years' corps that's still starting. Replacing them will be players such as Lilja, Walker and Foster, players that have nowhere near the NHL to do in the first place.
Would not suprise me a bit if the Flyers miss the playoffs. Sure, they got a great O but the G and D is nothing but a dumpster fire and the team didn't get better in the offseason. Seriously, this is a D that let in four goals per game in the playoffs last year and they got worse.
Good first pairing, decent second pairing, workable third pairing. However, that entire first pairing is gone which moves everyone up two spaces(well, not O'Donnel). On top of that Meszaros is still injured, so that's two out of last years' corps that's still starting. Replacing them will be players such as Lilja, Walker and Foster, players that have nowhere near the NHL to do in the first place.
Would not suprise me a bit if the Flyers miss the playoffs. Sure, they got a great O but the G and D is nothing but a dumpster fire and the team didn't get better in the offseason. Seriously, this is a D that let in four goals per game in the playoffs last year and they got worse.
O'Donnell wasn't on the team last year.
And you think they are one of the worst defenses in the league yet the rest of hfboards has them ranked 16th now
I'd take Read and a 2nd for Rundblad. He is a very skilled player, yeah, but he isn't as crucial for the organization as some other prospects and is better as trade bait IMO.
As a flyers fan, I think the yotes get robbed and if I could get that return for Read I'd be happy. Don't get me wrong, Read is a very nice player who is very versatile and on a good contract but he's about at his peak in ability. Rundblad is going to be a solid #3 dman (ie - runs the 2nd pairing very well) or a low end #2. It's unlikely he ever becomes a true #1. That said, he still holds more value than Read. I doubt that Read and a first even gets it done. Rundblad compares to Coburn when we first got him. Never became the #1 dman he was expected to become when he was drafted but he is a very solid #2/#3.
Good first pairing, decent second pairing, workable third pairing. However, that entire first pairing is gone which moves everyone up two spaces(well, not O'Donnel). On top of that Meszaros is still injured, so that's two out of last years' corps that's still starting. Replacing them will be players such as Lilja, Walker and Foster, players that have nowhere near the NHL to do in the first place.
Would not suprise me a bit if the Flyers miss the playoffs. Sure, they got a great O but the G and D is nothing but a dumpster fire and the team didn't get better in the offseason. Seriously, this is a D that let in four goals per game in the playoffs last year and they got worse.
Matt Carle was absolutely NOT the Flyers 2nd best defenseman last Opening Day - don't let being paired with Pronger throw you. Timonen and Coburn were better and Meszaros was named the Flyers most valuable defenseman the prior season. At most, he was the 4th best then.
