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01-12-2013, 06:56 PM
  #126
hlaverty06
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Your definition of a depth defenseman must differ from mine. Depth defensemen aren't awful defensemen, but they aren't top end either. Tallinder is 34, not the player he was on Buffalo, although still good, but he isn't more than a depth player at this point, and a downgrade on Smid/Whitney/Petry and probably Justin Shultz as well.
Lets hear your definition of depth D

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01-12-2013, 06:57 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
After watching him play in the AHL, I don't think its unrealistic to expect him to be a 2nd pair d-man as a rookie.
I think expecting any rookie that isn't a top 5 pick to step into a top-4 role and excel is a bad move. But that's my opinion.

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01-12-2013, 07:00 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
I think expecting any rookie that isn't a top 5 pick to step into a top-4 role and excel is a bad move. But that's my opinion.
Opinion noted. Faults in your logic noted as well, ha ha.

Schultz has been developed for years. He's not some 19 year old, he's played and developed in the US college system for years. He has blown away the AHL, playing with the same players he'll play with in the NHL, and looked like he was too good for that league while doing it. Before I saw him play in the AHL, I was hoping we would get another top 4 d-man for a year, but after watching how well he plays with Eberle/Hall/RNH and how good he actually is, I don't think its a gamble at all.

Have you watched him play at all, or are you basing your opinion off of nothing?

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01-12-2013, 07:01 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
No, I'm not using his numbers at all. I'm using the way he plays the game, the speed at which he moves and makes decisions, the crispness of his passes and the fact that he is that much better than everyone else he has played against, including some young NHL defensemen. Watching games >>>>>>> reading stat pages.

Your Mathieu Darche statement is ********, its not even close to the same thing. There is a reason that Darche hasn't made it in the NHL. I don't see any reason when watching Schultz play, unlike other career AHL'ers like your Darche or A. Giroux, etc. All those guys have significant things lacking in their game. Schultz doesn't appear to.
Its the same thing, Schultz can put up great AHL numbers and look like an allstar out there.

Doesn't necessarily translate to NHL, only time will tell.

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01-12-2013, 07:03 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Opinion noted. Faults in your logic noted as well, ha ha.

Schultz has been developed for years. He's not some 19 year old, he's played and developed in the US college system for years. He has blown away the AHL, playing with the same players he'll play with in the NHL, and looked like he was too good for that league while doing it. Before I saw him play in the AHL, I was hoping we would get another top 4 d-man for a year, but after watching how well he plays with Eberle/Hall/RNH and how good he actually is, I don't think its a gamble at all.

Have you watched him play at all, or are you basing your opinion off of nothing?
Just like you're basing your opinion on Tallinder from nothing at all?

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01-12-2013, 07:03 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
People in this thread are comparing Petry/Smid to Carlson/Alzner, and which I don't even come close to agreeing with at this point.
Well, lets examine their seasons last year.

Carlson - GP 82 9-23-32 -15 hits 83, blocked shots 153, giveaways 92, take aways 31, TOI 21:51

Alzner - GP 82 1-16-17 +12, hits 74, blocked shots 139, giveaways 48, takeaways 18, TOI 20:52



Petry - GP 73 2-23-25 -7 hits 126, blocked shots 126, giveaways 89, takeaways 36, TOI 21:45

Smid - GP 78 5-10-15 +4 hits 186, blocked shots 184, Giveaways 47, takeaways 31, TOI 20:54


For some reason all of the Oilers D gets crapped on because we finished 29th. Doesn't anyone consider it might be due to guys like Potter and Peckham getting way more minutes than they should, as well as guys like Teubert and Barker playing 24 and 25 games respectively. Couple that with 2/3 of a season from butter soft Gilbert and a noticeably lingering ankle injury hampering Whitney and it is amazing that we didn't finish dead last defensively last year, all thanks to the play of Smid and Petry.

You may also want to read a little more thoroughly, as I said they are a similar - but less spectacular duo. Carlson and Petry play a similar style on the right side. Smid and Alzner play a similar style from the left side. I watched the entire Caps Rangers series and saw Carlson and Alzner raise their games to a new level, which is why I give them more credit. But I also watched 70+ Oilers games last year, and rarely felt disappointed with Smid or Petry's play.

But I suppose you (like nearly every HFBoards poster) will tell me that you have NHL centre ice and saw just as many Oiler games and my assessment is biased and wrong.

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01-12-2013, 07:04 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
Lets hear your definition of depth D
A depth defenseman is a defenseman who plays a depth role on a team, a 4/5/6/7 guy on a defense core whose talents could be replaced if needed.

Tallinder brings nothing to the table, aside from perhaps experience, that is irreplaceable, and is at best a #4 defenseman, but on most teams is a bottom pair guy. That certainly doesn't make him useless, but doesn't make him worth anywhere near a top 6 game breaking forward.

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01-12-2013, 07:06 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
Just like you're basing your opinion on Tallinder from nothing at all?
Do you honestly think I've never seen the 34 year old Tallinder play? Its understandable for me to expect that you haven't seen Schultz play, I know a lot of diehard Oil fans who haven't even seen him yet. Have you?

I like Tallinder's game, but he's not any more than a bottom pair d-man on most teams now. And doesn't bring much that we don't have already in Nick Schultz.

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01-12-2013, 07:08 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
A depth defenseman is a defenseman who plays a depth role on a team, a 4/5/6/7 guy on a defense core whose talents could be replaced if needed.

Tallinder brings nothing to the table, aside from perhaps experience, that is irreplaceable, and is at best a #4 defenseman, but on most teams is a bottom pair guy. That certainly doesn't make him useless, but doesn't make him worth anywhere near a top 6 game breaking forward.
Tallinder is in no universe on most teams a bottom-pairing guy.

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01-12-2013, 07:10 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
Its the same thing, Schultz can put up great AHL numbers and look like an allstar out there.

Doesn't necessarily translate to NHL, only time will tell.
Its not even close to the same thing. Most career AHL all stars who don't translate don't even get a shot at the NHL because its obvious what they are missing in their game. Darche is a perfect example of a guy who is obviously great in the AHL but doesn't have the necessary tools to be an NHL'er. These tools are usually speed, or the ability to read plays (reaction time), or the ability to handle the physicality. Schultz read plays quicker than most NHL'ers did while in the AHL'ers, was faster than most NHL'ers in the AHL, and wasn't afraid to get physical. The only real question mark is if he can handle the physicality because that you can't tell until a guy actually plays in the NHL, but I don't see that being an issue with Schultz.

I ask again, have you actually watched him play?

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01-12-2013, 07:10 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
Well, lets examine their seasons last year.

Carlson - GP 82 9-23-32 -15 hits 83, blocked shots 153, giveaways 92, take aways 31, TOI 21:51

Alzner - GP 82 1-16-17 +12, hits 74, blocked shots 139, giveaways 48, takeaways 18, TOI 20:52



Petry - GP 73 2-23-25 -7 hits 126, blocked shots 126, giveaways 89, takeaways 36, TOI 21:45

Smid - GP 78 5-10-15 +4 hits 186, blocked shots 184, Giveaways 47, takeaways 31, TOI 20:54


For some reason all of the Oilers D gets crapped on because we finished 29th. Doesn't anyone consider it might be due to guys like Potter and Peckham getting way more minutes than they should, as well as guys like Teubert and Barker playing 24 and 25 games respectively. Couple that with 2/3 of a season from butter soft Gilbert and a noticeably lingering ankle injury hampering Whitney and it is amazing that we didn't finish dead last defensively last year, all thanks to the play of Smid and Petry.

You may also want to read a little more thoroughly, as I said they are a similar - but less spectacular duo. Carlson and Petry play a similar style on the right side. Smid and Alzner play a similar style from the left side. I watched the entire Caps Rangers series and saw Carlson and Alzner raise their games to a new level, which is why I give them more credit. But I also watched 70+ Oilers games last year, and rarely felt disappointed with Smid or Petry's play.

But I suppose you (like nearly every HFBoards poster) will tell me that you have NHL centre ice and saw just as many Oiler games and my assessment is biased and wrong.
That's two guys, and then you can't use the excuse oh we'd be better had Whitney played. Cause he didn't play so you can't take that hypothetical situation into account when ranking a D. I'm glad you have two solid guys, I'm happy for Edmonton

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01-12-2013, 07:11 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Its not even close to the same thing. Most career AHL all stars who don't translate don't even get a shot at the NHL because its obvious what they are missing in their game. Darche is a perfect example of a guy who is obviously great in the AHL but doesn't have the necessary tools to be an NHL'er. These tools are usually speed, or the ability to read plays (reaction time), or the ability to handle the physicality. Schultz read plays quicker than most NHL'ers did while in the AHL'ers, was faster than most NHL'ers in the AHL, and wasn't afraid to get physical. The only real question mark is if he can handle the physicality because that you can't tell until a guy actually plays in the NHL, but I don't see that being an issue with Schultz.

I ask again, have you actually watched him play?
I have seen Schultz play, anointing him a 2nd pairing D based on playing at a higher level than AHL'ers is silly.

Wait till he plays in the NHL

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01-12-2013, 07:14 PM
  #138
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OK, let's put some pride on the line too match these expert opinions. Avatar bets. One month (per bet). I'll bet the Oilers finish higher than Jersey in the standings, and I'll bet Schultz out scores any New Jersey defenceman. Any takers?

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01-12-2013, 07:16 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
That's two guys, and then you can't use the excuse oh we'd be better had Whitney played. Cause he didn't play so you can't take that hypothetical situation into account when ranking a D. I'm glad you have two solid guys, I'm happy for Edmonton
That post was in response to AfroThunder claiming I was way out to lunch with my claim.

And yes, I'm putting a healthy Whitney and Justin Schultz ahead of Tallinder as well.

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01-12-2013, 07:16 PM
  #140
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What about,

Hemsky + Gagner (Eat max salary) for Henrique + draft pick

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01-12-2013, 07:17 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Opinion noted. Faults in your logic noted as well, ha ha.

Schultz has been developed for years. He's not some 19 year old, he's played and developed in the US college system for years. He has blown away the AHL, playing with the same players he'll play with in the NHL, and looked like he was too good for that league while doing it. Before I saw him play in the AHL, I was hoping we would get another top 4 d-man for a year, but after watching how well he plays with Eberle/Hall/RNH and how good he actually is, I don't think its a gamble at all.

Have you watched him play at all, or are you basing your opinion off of nothing?
I caught a few of his college games and maybe two or three games this season. I'm familiar with his game but don't claim to be an expert.

I certainly think he'll be a quality NHL player, but I don't think the "sink or swim" approach is the right way to acclimate young defenseman to NHL competition. I think young defensemen should be sheltered until they prove they can handle the minutes. That's how New Jersey has been successful developing defensemen over they years.

I think when you move to a higher tier of competition, your previous accomplishments mean nothing and you need to prove you can play at that new level before earning more responsibility. Personally, I was a notorious Adam Henrique skeptic on the Devils board, despite going 25/25/50 in his rookie season in the AHL. When he was called up he started on the 3rd line and had to earn his way into the top-6. And I think that how all rookies should be acclimated, unless extremely distinguished (like John Tavares or Drew Doughty).

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01-12-2013, 07:18 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
I have seen Schultz play, anointing him a 2nd pairing D based on playing at a higher level than AHL'ers is silly.

Wait till he plays in the NHL
Well some scrub named Henrique was only scoring at a .5 ppg in that same league this year so....

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01-12-2013, 07:19 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
I have seen Schultz play, anointing him a 2nd pairing D based on playing at a higher level than AHL'ers is silly.

Wait till he plays in the NHL
You realize that he was playing with the same guys he'll be playing with in the NHL, and that the AHL had a lot of NHL'ers playing in it this year, right?

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01-12-2013, 07:20 PM
  #144
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Well some scrub named Henrique was only scoring at a .5 ppg in that same league this year so....
Want to know whats hilarious about this?

#1 he's injured

#2 he's put up 51 at the NHL LEVEL

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01-12-2013, 07:21 PM
  #145
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OK, let's put some pride on the line too match these expert opinions. Avatar bets. One month (per bet). I'll bet the Oilers finish higher than Jersey in the standings, and I'll bet Schultz out scores any New Jersey defenceman. Any takers?
I'll back this one up too, even though I don't have an avatar. If we lose, my first will be the one that is picked by Devils fans, ha ha.

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01-12-2013, 07:22 PM
  #146
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OK, let's put some pride on the line too match these expert opinions. Avatar bets. One month (per bet). I'll bet the Oilers finish higher than Jersey in the standings, and I'll bet Schultz out scores any New Jersey defenceman. Any takers?
That was a terrible thread from the beginning but it just hit bottom.

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01-12-2013, 07:22 PM
  #147
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Tallinder is in no universe on most teams a bottom-pairing guy.
Well, he would be on Edmonton, so Edmonton must not have the god awful defense that HF thinks.

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01-12-2013, 07:22 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
OK, let's put some pride on the line too match these expert opinions. Avatar bets. One month (per bet). I'll bet the Oilers finish higher than Jersey in the standings, and I'll bet Schultz out scores any New Jersey defenceman. Any takers?
And if only 1 of either happens.

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01-12-2013, 07:25 PM
  #149
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OK, let's put some pride on the line too match these expert opinions. Avatar bets. One month (per bet). I'll bet the Oilers finish higher than Jersey in the standings, and I'll bet Schultz out scores any New Jersey defenceman. Any takers?
Hell yes I'll take this.

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01-12-2013, 07:29 PM
  #150
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Want to know whats hilarious about this?

#1 he's injured

#2 he's put up 51 at the NHL LEVEL
Well my point wasn't to slam Henrique, it was to say that the AHL is a tough league to score in, and even more so in lockout years. Schultz's ppg average was nearly identical to Spezza's during the last lockout (1.41 to 1.46), which Spezza followed up with a 90 pt season in the NHL. All I'm suggesting is Schultz should be good for 25-30 points in a 48 game season and a Calder threat. It's not like he simply played well in the AHL, he friggin owned it. But I'm out of my element with my prediction?

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