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Old
02-28-2005, 05:01 PM
  #26
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
No they won't do you know that they have about 30% of a hypothetical cap of 45 million$$ tied into Owen Nolan and Ed Belfour?

You ain't going nowhere with that, especially if the cap is at 38 million like the owners want it
You said it yourself. It's hypothetical at this point. You also do not know how hard or soft this cap will be, as there are various systems thrown around.

What we do know is that the Leafs are one of the richest franchises around and can probably pay some penalties to go over. How much so? Remains to be seen.

You must also take into account that this lockout cancels one year worth of contract, so Belfour and Nolan have 1 year less on their contract. In your 30% calculation you forgot to include that most hypothetical offers included a rollback of almost a quarter of players salary, 24%.

When you take into account the fact Toronto is literally rolling in revenues, have solid ownership, a dedicated TV network, and a consistent story of making the playoffs, things look fine to me.

People have said the Laffs and Dead Wings were too old ever since I got here (1998) and they've been kicking ass and embarassing several upcoming teams. I'm not saying it's necessarly going to happen again, but I don't see how Toronto's situation can be considered to be bad.

It is one of the better (financially) managed big franchises. The Rangers are a juggernaut, for instance, but they lose a lot of money.

Toronto is in business. It is yearly a top 3 most valuable franchise, usually with only the Rangers ahead of it. It is also usually top 3 in revenues (again with usually only the Rangers ahead). It is in a natural hockey hotbed. Hundreds of players would love to play for them. In short, as far as the franchise is concerned, it is very healthy and can survive any NHL climate.

Adjustments might be needed the first year or two but it's nothing outrageous. Even if it was, all this means is that they actually have quality players like Sundin, Belfour, Nolan.

Is it tough to find ways to pay those kind of players? Yes.

Are you better off not having this "problem" with junk like Ronning, Dafoe and Battaglia? **** no.

Additionally, you should be aware that ALL teams face this problem, including the Habs. I would venture to say the Leafs are actually more cost-effective than the Habs. Brisebois' contract is horrible. Belfour may be a 8-9 million UFA, but you're paying an effeminate RFA $6M to be goalkeeper and miss the playoffs more often than not.

The Habs are just coming off some horrible financial decisions. Worthless junk like Juneau, Perreault, etc. They actually had to PAY that ****ing dishonorable, no balls Audette to leave. Rivet is hugely overpaid. Koivu as an RFA was overpaid for years because of the way qualifiers worked.

Both teams have holes. I do prefer the Habs prospects, though. Coaching is more proven in Toronto, although I don't like Pat Quinn too much. Gainey >>>> Ferguson. That might be the difference maker.

But when all is said and done, all 30 franchises are in deep crap, you and I have no idea what the new CBA will look like and everybody sane knows the Leafs are in business thanks to a ridiculously strong market. It's one of the top franchises to own.

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02-28-2005, 05:49 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Gainey >>>> Ferguson.
Based on what?

I'd really like to hear this.

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02-28-2005, 06:33 PM
  #28
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Rant! w00t!

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02-28-2005, 06:36 PM
  #29
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This thread makes me wish there was some real NHL hockey to talk about. It's sad that the Montreal-Toronto rivalry has descended to "our prospects are better than yours" and who's better prepared for a cap.

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02-28-2005, 06:39 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
Based on what?

I'd really like to hear this.
Just take a look at what Gainey has done for the org. so far. He's gotten rid of useless old fillers with bloated contracts. His draft record is ok ( I won't say great, but compared to past years.) The team is now playing a solid system and winning games. Nobody has been signed to horrific contracts under Gainey. He brought in Kovalev, which pushed us to the second round of the playoffs. He stood up for Breezy, which improved his play immensly. Brought in Bonk, which addresses a need for size, brought in Begin, which adresses a need for grit.

The list goes on and on, but the point is when Gainey came into town there were countless problems in Montreal, and he's been working on fixing them all quite quickly. Right now the future looks good in hab-land, which hasn't been true for a long time.

I can't go into great detail on JFJ, but just look at where the leafs are right now. Sure, they've had a good team for a few years, and that really is to JFJ's credit. He has been a decent GM over the years, I don't deny it. But now the leafs are saddled with a couple of bad contracts, and all of their top players are over what, 33?

It's tough to even compare the two though, because they've carried extremely different positions with the two clubs. Gainey has been trying to straighten out a troubled franchise, and I think he's done a magnificent job. JFJ has been trying to keep a strong team on top, and aside from limited success in the playoffs, I'd say he's done an decent job aswell.

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02-28-2005, 07:09 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeaky
Just take a look at what Gainey has done for the org. so far. He's gotten rid of useless old fillers with bloated contracts. His draft record is ok ( I won't say great, but compared to past years.) The team is now playing a solid system and winning games. Nobody has been signed to horrific contracts under Gainey. He brought in Kovalev, which pushed us to the second round of the playoffs. He stood up for Breezy, which improved his play immensly. Brought in Bonk, which addresses a need for size, brought in Begin, which adresses a need for grit.

The list goes on and on, but the point is when Gainey came into town there were countless problems in Montreal, and he's been working on fixing them all quite quickly. Right now the future looks good in hab-land, which hasn't been true for a long time.

I can't go into great detail on JFJ, but just look at where the leafs are right now. Sure, they've had a good team for a few years, and that really is to JFJ's credit. He has been a decent GM over the years, I don't deny it. But now the leafs are saddled with a couple of bad contracts, and all of their top players are over what, 33?

It's tough to even compare the two though, because they've carried extremely different positions with the two clubs. Gainey has been trying to straighten out a troubled franchise, and I think he's done a magnificent job. JFJ has been trying to keep a strong team on top, and aside from limited success in the playoffs, I'd say he's done an decent job aswell.
They've each been in office for 1 season.

It's way too soon to say "Gainey >>>> Ferguson".

Nothing against Gainey, he's done a nice job compared to past GM's... but Ferguson's built a solid solid group of scouts and has developed a much needed player development program and is the reason the Maple Leafs have improved the system and the AHL club.

He made a bold trade with the Rangers that brought in a top 10 NHL defenseman and has made little moves like signing Ken Klee and acquiring Chad Kilger, giving us some depth at a relatively young age for the 3rd/4th lines.

I think after 19 months it's impossible to take one over the other.

Right now the two biggest moves for Gainey look like this...

To MTL: Radek Bonk, Cristobal Huet
To LA: Mathieu Garon, 3rd round pick (Paul Baier)

To MTL: Alex Kovalev
To NYR: Jozef Balej, 2nd round pick (Dane Byers)

And JFJ's trade...

To Tor: Brian Leetch, 4th round pick (Roman Kukumberg)
To NYR: Jarkko Immonen, Max Kondratiev, 1st (Kris Chucko), 2nd (2005)

So, the two major trades sees each GM pick up elite players for the short-term, possibly long-term if the Leafs and Habs sign their boys.

It's far fetched to say Gainey is >>>> times better than JFJ.

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Old
02-28-2005, 07:14 PM
  #32
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They should sign Witehall and Juha Lind.

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02-28-2005, 07:15 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benji_ch
They should sign Witehall and Juha Lind.
Juha Lind is 3lite.

Maybe even Markus Seikola and Alex Kovalenko?

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02-28-2005, 07:18 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
Juha Lind is 3lite.

Maybe even Markus Seikola and Alex Kovalenko?
I thought it was l33t :lol

Edit- And when you do the analysis, both GM's have done a really good job. I think Habs fans would like to think Gainey's done better because 1) He's working with less (in $$$ terms) 2) He's BOB GAINEY a HOFer. 3) Gainey has more experience as a GM

But when you put those two factors aside, both did good jobs in their 1st years working. Again, though, like you said, it's a little early to compare.

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Old
02-28-2005, 07:20 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Robert
I thought it was l33t :lol
lol, I don't know... I'm not a NERD!




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Old
02-28-2005, 07:22 PM
  #36
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Why not bring that stud David Wilkie out of retirement?

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Old
02-28-2005, 07:24 PM
  #37
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
Based on what?

I'd really like to hear this.
You can figure it out yourself or discard the comment. I'm not wasting my time with you as you distort most things and all things that pertain to the Leafs.

Nobody sane is going to try and persuade a guy who thinks the Leafs have a better group of prospect than the Habs that Bob Gainey is infinitely superior to Ferguson, and will always be.

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02-28-2005, 07:24 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benji_ch
Why not bring that stud David Wilkie out of retirement?
We don't need your trash.

We'll give Jeff Ware a call.

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Old
02-28-2005, 07:31 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
We don't need your trash.

We'll give Jeff Ware a call.
Wow I completely forgot about that tank. You guys sure are lucky to have a guy like that in the organization. I guess we'll have to settle for Peter Popovic or Chris Murray.

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02-28-2005, 08:35 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benji_ch
Wow I completely forgot about that tank. You guys sure are lucky to have a guy like that in the organization. I guess we'll have to settle for Peter Popovic or Chris Murray.
Thanks.

Well, Cliff Fletcher left quite a few gems for us. Jeff "Care Bear" Ware is one of them.

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02-28-2005, 10:02 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossroads
Just one point...

In the last six years, the Habs only made the playoffs two times.
In the last six years, the Leafs have made the playoffs all six times while making it to the third round twice.

And as of this moment, you should not be criticizing the current situation the Leafs are in. The Habs aren't any better... in fact, they are probably worse.
If you think the current situation of the two teams has the Leafs ahead of the Habs, the you are more delusional than I thought. With the impending salary cap about to take its toll on the Leafs roster and their ability to acuire super sized talent on the Free agent market, along with the retirement paper filings by half the roster, in additon to the dried up farm system, the Leafs roster is looking more like the Pens roster than anything resembling a playoff team.

The LAST SIX years. Who cares about SIX years? Why not go back EIGHT? Because it excuses the Leafs missing the playoffs two years running? Why stop at SIX?

In todays age, the only relevant time frame is three years, especialy when you're talking about non-championship calibre teams. In those three years, the Leafs have won exactly three playoff rounds, the Habs two. The Leafs have won those three playoff rounds while being in full tilt "trying to win a cup" mode, while the Habs have won those two playoff rounds while in rebuilding mode. Add to that a whopping gap of about $75 million combined over those three years in payroll, and you have a team in Toronto that is SERIOUSLY overrated.

What is it exactly that any Hab fan has to envy over Toronto? All those embarrassing and disasterous first and second round exits over the last five years at the hands of the Flyers and Devils? OR is it your distinct ability to continually beat the biggest chokers in the Eastern Conference, the Ottawa Senators? Oh yeah sorry, that CF finals appearance in 2002 is something we should bow to, even though that playoff run can only be best be described as "miraculous".

Lots to be jealous of there!!!


Last edited by AH: 03-01-2005 at 07:31 AM.
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02-28-2005, 10:11 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossroads
As for the future. The Leafs have a great young group of defensive prospects.
Who? Besides injury prone Cola, the rest are fillers worth mid round picks on the trade market.

Quote:
Their offensive prospects are lacking but that is easily fixed through free agency.
And these "free agents" will fit inside what cap room? If you're talking about Josh Green and Bates Battaglia, you might have a point, but forget Kariya and Kovalev.

Quote:
I guess you're seeing what you want to see. Thankfully reality differs much from what you think/see.
Reality sure differs from what YOU see.

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02-28-2005, 10:12 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
You can figure it out yourself or discard the comment. I'm not wasting my time with you as you distort most things and all things that pertain to the Leafs.

Nobody sane is going to try and persuade a guy who thinks the Leafs have a better group of prospect than the Habs that Bob Gainey is infinitely superior to Ferguson, and will always be.
heh. Took the words right out of my mouth.

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02-28-2005, 10:25 PM
  #44
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Let's compare team revenues.

1. Toronto
2 next best -17 million behind

somewhere down there is Montreal. Thankfully owner George Gillette is out on the corner of some street, or RUE as you like to call it with a sign: Will drop pants for pocket change. Good to see an owner doing whatever he can to keep the team in Montreal :lol

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02-28-2005, 10:30 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
Let's compare team revenues.

1. Toronto
2 next best -17 million behind

somewhere down there is Montreal. Thankfully owner George Gillette is out on the corner of some street, or RUE as you like to call it with a sign: Will drop pants for pocket change. Good to see an owner doing whatever he can to keep the team in Montreal :lol
Your team's history is so pathetic over the last 40 years that you resort to cheering for revenue ? C'mon, you're better than that.

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02-28-2005, 10:41 PM
  #46
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Geez, I misjudged you McPhee. You didn't find that post funny as hell, especially considering the garbage that is the rest of this thread?

BTW, the Leafs were dead from 1968 to 1990 when the pedophile crook owned the team. Thankfully they were resurrected in 1992, which you might notice if you look a little closer has been VERY respectable, especially on the income statement and balance sheet.

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02-28-2005, 10:42 PM
  #47
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I sense Cup envy on the shores of Lake Ontario. It's so close to them that they can almost taste it (when they visit the HOF). They only cup they'll ever get is the little plastic one the nurse hands them when they visit the doc.

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02-28-2005, 10:44 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Corey
I sense Cup envy on the shores of Lake Ontario. It's so close to them that they can almost taste it (when they visit the HOF). They only cup they'll ever get is the little plastic one the nurse hands them when they visit the doc.
<--------------------

The only thing I am envious is the Leafs prospect list seems to lack a player who can hit a Slider.

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02-28-2005, 11:56 PM
  #49
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The Leafs and Habs are in the same boat for the near future; who knows? We don't know what's going to come out of these CBA "negotiations." One thing that would be certain is that if the league came back with a cap, at any price, the Leafs would be in tough. Mind you, the hawks on the NHL side who want a real low cap would be dragging big market teams down to their financial level when it's really not that cut and dry.

Teams like the Flyers, Rangers, Kings, Wings, Avs, Blues, etc. and (yes) Leafs need a gap between them and the lower market teams. Trust me, owners aren't crying about a 45mil cap because it puts them 15 million under the Wings! They want equity. They need to get so much more out of their earnings because they're under pressure from investors. This wasn't needed for the Leafs, their owners and their bankers but they'll gladly take turning a 50 million dollar equity and double it if not
more.

This isn't so much about on-ice or off-ice issues as it is about business. Even our Habs are looking for some more equity for their investors and bankers. George Gillette has been championing a low cap for these reasons for the most part. At 45 mil-50 mil cap, he's not complaining. Owners in the upper middle-class of the league like the Canadiens, are maybe on the fence right now because they'd like better equity and have price ranges they can handle but aren't sure of how this process will hurt their revenues in the long run. I think the Habs have too many die-hards to lose out if or when the NHL returns. The owners would have to lower ticket prices, though it wouldn't affect the dissidents from their choice to shun the NHL, it would have hardcore fans get their chance to show up more often and rock the house. Same goes for all NHL teams. There, that's one positive out of a return for the NHL in its big/fanatic markets.

As for the on-ice dealio between the Leafs and Habs? Leaf fans, the smart ones, know it will be rebuilding time and a Cup just might be out of reach. After all, Calgary showed that anyone can do it but you have to have the youth (as of 03-04, avg. age of 27.5 for the team, 28 for forwards and only 25 for defense while the Leafs defense's avg. age was 28, the forwards 32 and the team 31.5 according to my calculations). Detroit's 01/02 cup win strategy did not work for the Leafs in these last few years despite the cup/playoff experience and solid goaltending. It just came down to not having durable older guys and a solid defense. I mean, the Wings 02 D is a bit older but more remarkable; Lidstrom, Chelios, Fischer, Slegr, Dandeneault, Olausson and Duchesne holds up slightly better than McCabe, Kaberle, Berg, Leetch, Belak, Coliacavo (?) and I forget the others.

The Habs prospects tend to be overrated at times, but this is not a select group of overwhelming talents, just a bunch of prospects with lots of great potential. From what we see; on a well-built team with the scorers, defense and goaltending in place (which we're working toward), guys like Ryder (if the high-end talents of ours work out, he might be forced off the top 2 lines sometime in the near future) Higgins, Plekanec, Chipchura and Milroy will be the kind of foot soldiers who can grind and score timely goals to boot (ala guys like Carbo, the Grind Line, MacTavish, Tikkanen, Trottier in his later years, the list goes on with cup winners who benefit from this advantage). Guys like White, Stajan, Cola, Wellwood, Steen, Hedin and Telqvist will be the Leafs future put into place but it's not enough to carry a team even to the playoffs. Hopefully for the LEafs, many vets are gone from the league when it returns so they can either start from scratch with a young team or go for some older guys out there to bring up (hold back?) the young talent in the quest to be competitive.

This is why I believe roles will be reversed as long as the NHL survives. As long as the Habs manage to inject some grit and heart into the fabric of the team (a component the Sens have failed at with guys like Alfie, Hossa, Havlat, Redden just not showing me true determination when the chips are down in the playoffs whilst guys like Koivu, Ryder-hey 1 goal in the NHL one but a million shots, plus he's excelled big time in the AHL and QMJHL playoffs, Zednik and Markov seem to elevate their game come playoff time). We have promising young guys already on the roster with at least half a dozen bonafide NHL'ers in any role, ready to step in.

The Leafs future (down the next 5 years) is Kaberle, McCabe, and Sundin while almost all the others are in St. John's. And when you consider the amount of late-20s AHL'ers and NHL rejects (Leeb, Ling, Wilm, MacDonald, Perott coming to mind), it looks like Leafland needs to focus more on the draft than the team payroll buying stars, in the future. To get worked up over these AHL standbys would be like Habs fans in recent years getting high on the play of Benoit Gratton, Pierre Sevigny, Eric Landry, and Craig Darby. Most fans, knowledgable ones, knew these guys would most likely never catch on as regulars. We imagine good things for NHL-less older Bulldogs such as Pleks, Ward and Archer because they are still 25 and under.

The Leaf fans who hype guys like Ling and Leeb and Kilger for that matter, are simply denying fate. Just as several Hab fans were when guys like Witehall, Lind, Darby, Poulin, Bashkirov, Richter, Laflamme, etc. were suiting up regularly in between trips to and from Quebec (the Citadelles) and foolishly thinking these guys could help us make the playoffs (and there were people who saw some promise in those names above). Considering all but 1/3 of our regulars from 1999-2001 are now looking like AHL stars and nothing more, we all see the light and realize what kinda crap Houle left us with for suckers like Vigneault and Therrien. Vigneault, much maligned, was better because he could've done better things with the 01/02 and 02/03 teams than the rah-rah Therrien who had some NHL experience in his lineup, albeit some mostly washed-up, one-dimensional, weak, small and softy experience (other than Gilmour who I always liked on the ice).

Under a cap, the Leafs would be forced to either hang on to what they have leading to an inevitable influx of a few big signings to make just under the cap while employing AHL bums throughout the rest of the lineup, leaving their top players in a state that quality guys like Markov, Perreault, Theodore, Koivu, Zednik and Gilmour had to live with in Montreal. And about the recent success argument, the Leafs have been better for the last 7 years no doubt but big deal, let's talk over a decade long. Though the Leafs (since the Ballard era ended, and his reign seems to be a maligned age for Leaf fans that they claim would've seen a cup win or two had a more competent man been in place) have been in the post-season 10 times (series-wise going 11-10 with 4 trips to the semi-finals) gained 90 pts. or more 8 times, etc. we have that one cup in the same time that still rings in our ears as a calling card of more successful days while the Leafs have the proud, but fruitless, Conf. Final dynasty in this time only bested by Que./Colorado (6), Detroit (5), New Jersey (5) and Philly (tied with 4 but made finals in 97).

By comparision, since the 1990 rebirth from Ballard of the Leafs, we have made it 9 times (series-wise going an almost equal winning pct. of 9-8 but with only 1 trip to the conf. and Stanley cup finals) while gaining 90 or more pts. just 5 times. Still, the Leafs took a while to get off the ground and the 92 trade for Gilmour established their new era of respectability, save for a 2-year blip thanks to the bad trades and drafts in Cliff Fletcher's last days (rescued by some good trades, drafts, gems from the Fletcher era and a smart move to the Eastern Conf. spearheaded by Dryden and co.). At their best, they've been much better and believe it or not at their worst, they've been a little worse (the 57 pts. of 90-91, 64 in 91-92, 69 in 96-97 and 68 in 97-98) although without OT losses, our 2000-01 season would have given us 62 pts. in any other year while 02-03 was something like 68 without OT losses).

So there you have it. We could easily make the excuse that Molson were a bunch of fools that slowly dug us into a hole that by the late 90s was hard to climb out of, spurring dreadful last-place stretches that as I recall got the Canadian and Hockey press all sympathetic for our woes as they had before becoming numbed by the pain of the Ballard era in Toronto (sometime around another failed youth and management movement in 87-88). It was sad for hockey when we'd become a joke for most of 98-2003, which had valiant struggles through injury and obstacles but also bumbling periods of ineptitude that only Panthers fans know too well. It'd be sad for hockey if the LEafs sucked too. But hey, they'd crawl out of it what with this market that has a taste for winning and does NOT want to lose a bunch anymore. Hopefully the rivalry won't include the Habs visiting the ACC, drowning out the home fans and whipping T.O. 5/6-1... not for too long of course.


Last edited by Hab-a-maniac: 03-01-2005 at 12:02 AM.
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03-01-2005, 12:08 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
<--------------------

The only thing I am envious is the Leafs prospect list seems to lack a player who can hit a Slider.
Well there’s only one way to settle this, a Saturday night tilt on HNIC. I got a feeling that we are going to absolutely crush those geriatric Leafs on the next chance we get (I’ll bring the pine tar). Screw the owners’ wallets, screw the players’ wallets. We need a new CBA … ASAP.

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