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Anaheim Ducks 12/13 Training camp

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01-17-2013, 01:39 AM
  #626
AngelDuck
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
It's not all about offense. Penalty killing, hitting, forecheck, etc.

And let's not get carried away with his scoring talent. I've seen him whiff on a lot of opportunities in crucial moments the last few months to put him head and shoulders above anyone on our fourth line. He has proven that he can score in the AHL, but you can score down there in ways that won't happen at the next level. It's like Etem in the WHL versus him in the pros.
OK, but while that might be true...wouldn't you agree that DSP has been worse than Maroon in the AHL this year?

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01-17-2013, 02:12 AM
  #627
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OK, but while that might be true...wouldn't you agree that DSP has been worse than Maroon in the AHL this year?
There is no uniform determinant of who is better or not. Smith-Pelley is a better hitter and sees more time on the penalty kill than Maroon does. He's also a better skater. Maroon has been more dangerous at scoring even strength, but he's not exactly dominating at any form of special teams. What Maroon has excelled at isn't in line with what would put Smith-Pelley in Anaheim, nor would it even put him ahead of Beleskey.

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01-17-2013, 02:29 AM
  #628
KEEROLE Vatanen
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Rakell's game is better suited for the smaller, NHL ice surface, the international ice in the WJC's does not tailor to his strengths. I don't see a problem with him getting a look, a Rakell/Holland/DSP 4th line would sure be one i'd be interested in seeing, especially compared to past 4th lines

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01-17-2013, 02:55 AM
  #629
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As a fan of Sami, it's quite awesome to see him sticking with Ducks, but as we all know, he's not quite ready for NHL. Is there any chance he'll replace one d-man (so there'd be Fowler, Souray, Sbisa, Lydman, Beuchemin and Vats), get placed with a veteran like Lyde in 3rd and get some PP2 time? And then mix pairings when we need that Lyde-Beuch shutdown line.

ps. I'm pro in NHL 13's be a gm And I know it has nothing to do with real life, but there's no sense in having Vatanen as 7th/8th d-man..

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01-17-2013, 03:02 AM
  #630
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Only way Vatanen sees NHL time this season is because of injury to someone like Fowler.

We wouldn't drop a newly acquired dman in Allen to accommodate Vatanen either at this stage IMO.

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01-17-2013, 03:39 AM
  #631
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Eh. If we're out of the playoff picture maybe he can buy a couple games at the end of the year.

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01-17-2013, 03:44 AM
  #632
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Originally Posted by Damn Skippy View Post
What you said is that we have two unproven top 6 players (which you called stupid), and that we desperately need a top 6 winger. But Palmieri's fine? What's the extra top 6 winger for?
IMO, Palmieri has earned a top six role due to his play in the minors and play when he's been called up. I had him pencilled in a top 6 role in my preseason lineup as well. However, if Murray just has to see if Bonino can be a top 6 center this season, then Palmieri doesn't need to be there this season because it's not wise to depend so much on two young players in such an important year to this franchise.


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IMO, between Selanne and Ryan, Koivu is a perfectly fine backup option. If we had a better player than Koivu, we'd have to pay him, and we'd have to pay him at UFA rates. $4M? More? At whose expense? A backup is not a perfect option, it's the optimal balance between your first choice and your worst case scenario within your spending constraints. Otherwise it wouldn't be a backup.
As I said earlier I would rather have spent the extra money on a top six center rather than have so much money invested in our defense. I don't think you have to have all 6 defenseman making 3 million a season. I'd rather our 6th defenseman be making a lower salary so we can put more money towards the forwards, specifically top 6 forwards. This is why I said Murray was using bad asset management. Since he has a budget he has to use his money in the vital parts of the roster, which IMO he's doing a bad job of.

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You're saying you're fine with working in one young player into the top 6 as long as there is a legitimate, proven option backing him up. Which means, the team must always have 6 top 6 forwards! And again, no team can afford that. You're advocating a premium system that can't exist in a cap world. Kids on ELCs have to be worked in, and while it is smart to have players on hand who can handle the role if the kid falters, it is impossible to have those backup players be legitimate top 6 players themselves.
Please tell me where I said this. Is my Koivu comment making you think that? I only said that because you mentioned him as an option in case Bonino faltered. It's nice to have a backup option that's top 6 capable, but like you said that's not always feasable. I'm saying it's smart to have 5 in case the young guys aren't ready.


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Originally Posted by Damn Skippy View Post
And if they are, that money comes out from the budget elsewhere. In our case, it means we don't have money for veteran defensemen to help nurture our young blueliners along. Which means you've given yourself peace of mind at forward at the expense of exposing your young, unproven defensemen before they're ready.
Who said that we have to expose our young unproven defenseman? If they aren't ready, then you sign a cheap 6th defenseman, it's not that difficult. Would the pair suffer because of it? Yes, but the gain in the 2nd line would more than make up the difference IMO. Again it comes to asset management. Basically where do you want several millions invested, 2nd line center or 6th defenseman? It's an easy choice for me.

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You've already admitted Palmieri is ready. Do you honestly believe Bonino needs yet another season under sheltered minutes? How slowly is slowly enough? 4 years at the pro level? More? Will you wait long enough to let his ELC expire? I think your concept of bad asset management is backwards.
What I am saying is that I don't believe that Bonino has earned the chance to just get a 2nd line position handed to him. He was good last year in his role, but not good enough that he just has to be given more ice time. Does he deserve to stay full time? Absolutely. He's a perfect bottom six center for Bruce's type of lineup. However, he hasn't earned a top 6 spot by any means IMO. And hasn't his ELC already expired?

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01-17-2013, 03:50 AM
  #633
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I don't hate Cogs. I hate his contract and I hate the fact that he hasn't really fit on this team in the past. Hoping we finally have found a spot for him next to Koivu and Winnik
Agreed. He's not a horrible player but I am failing to see the use of this third line? They aren't physical enough to be a "checking line" and Bruce has said he doesn't worry about line matching. What's the point then? All I see is a line that's going to be responsible defensively that will probably be poor offensively. Maybe Bruce changes his philosophy on line matching?

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01-17-2013, 03:51 AM
  #634
KEEROLE Vatanen
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Agreed. He's not a horrible player but I am failing to see the use of this third line? They aren't physical enough to be a "checking line" and Bruce has said he doesn't worry about line matching. What's the point then? All I see is a line that's going to be responsible defensively that will probably be poor offensively. Maybe Bruce changes his philosophy on line matching?
looks like it will be a line that focuses on forechecking and pressuring the puck, who knows i guess we need to see it first

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01-17-2013, 03:54 AM
  #635
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
What other "tools" are you talking about, Exit? He has a big body and can score. I see no reason why he can't play better than DSP. Maroon is much more polished offensively, and is bigger. Really, all DSP is better at is hitting. They're about the same defensively.
Based on what I've seen, DSP is clearly more suited for the 4th line than Maroon IMO. He's a better hitter and forechecker, with the latter being the most important. I haven't seen Maroon much (few games), but forechecking doesn't seem to be a strength of his.

Now with that said, I'm all for sending DSP down. Sounds like the kid is comfortable just making the roster, and that's not good enough. I'm for sending him down to develop his game more.

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01-17-2013, 03:57 AM
  #636
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
looks like it will be a line that focuses on forechecking and pressuring the puck, who knows i guess we need to see it first

Yeah I am interested to see how it's used. I'm skeptical now, but I realize it's early and I'm not going to bash the decision until I see how it's used. Maybe Cogliano's chemistry with Winnik helps open up and offensive side to him we haven't see yet. My point is that it's an odd combination when you consider it's being referred to as a checking line and Bruce's unwillingness to line match.

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01-17-2013, 03:59 AM
  #637
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
OK, but while that might be true...wouldn't you agree that DSP has been worse than Maroon in the AHL this year?
Better in the AHL isn't = better in the NHL. Maroon is a scorer/power forward, Smith-Pelly is a grinder (at this point). They're not filling the same function. If it was all about skill Ryan Lasch would be on the team instead of Matt Beleskey...

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01-17-2013, 05:33 AM
  #638
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Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 View Post
Yeah I am interested to see how it's used. I'm skeptical now, but I realize it's early and I'm not going to bash the decision until I see how it's used. Maybe Cogliano's chemistry with Winnik helps open up and offensive side to him we haven't see yet. My point is that it's an odd combination when you consider it's being referred to as a checking line and Bruce's unwillingness to line match.
well i don't really get what type of line it is, seems to be lacking identity, i guess we can hope they each put in double digit goals and Koivu wins faceoffs at a rate where they can control possession

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01-17-2013, 05:39 AM
  #639
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well i don't really get what type of line it is, seems to be lacking identity, i guess we can hope they each put in double digit goals and Koivu wins faceoffs at a rate where they can control possession
Isn't the line's purpose to play defensive type of game? I wouldn't be surpised if they played Winnik-Koivu-Cogliano Lydman-Beauchemin -line against opposing team's dangerous lines.

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01-17-2013, 06:24 AM
  #640
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Maybe Ducks want to see Vatanen as 7th dman: and second PP unit specialist for a while?... but like so many times said... better for him to learn little bit more of NA game in Norfolk and if injuries come in this tight game scedule...then up.

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01-17-2013, 07:15 AM
  #641
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Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 View Post
*snip
You're a bit of a moving target, on top of which you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'll leave it at this: I don't agree with you on what "vital areas" are in terms of roster management, nor do I think the solutions you variously propose are reasonable, or in some cases, even possible.

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01-17-2013, 07:56 AM
  #642
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Souray really has that perfect soap opera look.

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01-17-2013, 08:02 AM
  #643
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Rakell's game is better suited for the smaller, NHL ice surface, the international ice in the WJC's does not tailor to his strengths. I don't see a problem with him getting a look, a Rakell/Holland/DSP 4th line would sure be one i'd be interested in seeing, especially compared to past 4th lines
Imho DSP does not deserve to say at the big club right now. It will be interesting to see what will happen with both, Rakell and William Karlsson. Both center but the middle is quite set. Getzlaf, Bonino, Koivu, Holland is pretty solid. I see them both on the wing at NHL level

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01-17-2013, 08:14 AM
  #644
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Originally Posted by JabbaJabba View Post
Isn't the line's purpose to play defensive type of game? I wouldn't be surpised if they played Winnik-Koivu-Cogliano Lydman-Beauchemin -line against opposing team's dangerous lines.
Bruce has said in the past that he doesn't bother with line matching which is why some of us are wondering what the purpose or identity of that line is supposed to be. However, if he decides to match that line against an opponent's top line then it makes more sense. But that would be changing his theory of not matching lines so we will see.

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01-17-2013, 08:22 AM
  #645
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Originally Posted by Damn Skippy View Post
You're a bit of a moving target, on top of which you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'll leave it at this: I don't agree with you on what "vital areas" are in terms of roster management, nor do I think the solutions you variously propose are reasonable, or in some cases, even possible.
Moving target? I even asked you to specifically tell me where I said each player had to have a backup that was top six capable. You're the one who brought that up with the whole Koivu argument.

If your definition of "vital areas" are different of mine that's fine. Mine are pretty simple top 4 defense and top 9 forwards (more top 6 but third line is very important as well). I don't see how you don't understand what I'm saying because its quite simple. I'd rather us not sink 6 million into a 3rd pair on defense and use more of that money to address a big problem we had last year, secondary scoring. I'm not a moving target, especially when you consider that I've been preaching this for years. I'm on a phone so I can't see how long you've been a member here but i guarantee you those have been here a while know my requests have been consistent the past few offseasons.


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01-17-2013, 08:39 AM
  #646
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Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 View Post
Moving target? I even asked you to specifically tell me where I said each player had to have a backup that was top six capable. You're the one who brought that up with the whole Koivu argument.

If your definition of "vital areas" are different of mine that's fine. Mine are pretty simple top 4 defense and top 9 forwards (more top 6 but third line is very important as well). I don't see how you don't understand what I'm saying because its quite simple. I'd rather us not sink 7 million into a 3rd pair on defense and use more of that money to address a big problem we had last year, secondary scoring. I'm not a moving target, especially when you consider that I've been preaching this for years. I'm on a phone so I can't see how long you've been a member here but i guarantee you those have been here a while know my requests have been consistent the past few offseasons.
Our 3rd pair is being paid $5.8M. We have no defense pairing making $7M.

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01-17-2013, 08:48 AM
  #647
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Our 3rd pair is being paid $5.8M. We have no defense pairing making $7M.
Sorry I meant to put a 6 there. Forgive me it's early and I'm on a phone. I will edit it.

It really depends how you view the pairs I guess.

Fowler (1.4)-Allen (3.5)
Beauchemin (3.5)-Lyman(3)
Souray(4)-Sbisa(2.2)

Where are you getting 5.8? I'm going by salary since cap doesn't matter to Ducks and I'm using capgeek to get my numbers.

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01-17-2013, 08:55 AM
  #648
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You view the pairs as they are, not as you wish to support your argument.

Beauchemin-Lydman ($6.5M)
Allen-Fowler ($4.9M)
Souray-Sbisa ($5.9M)

We have actually only one pairing making that much; the first pairing. I don't see any profligate spending here. Clearly you wouldn't have signed Souray. You'd have done what, then?

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01-17-2013, 08:59 AM
  #649
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Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 View Post
Fowler (1.4)-Allen (3.5)
Beauchemin (3.5)-Lyman(3)
Souray(4)-Sbisa(2.2)
Souray's cap hit is 3.6. 3.6+2.2=5.8. That's why he said 5.8.

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01-17-2013, 09:05 AM
  #650
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You view the pairs as they are, not as you wish to support your argument.

Beauchemin-Lydman ($6.5M)
Allen-Fowler ($4.9M)
Souray-Sbisa ($5.9M)

We have actually only one pairing making that much; the first pairing. I don't see any profligate spending here. Clearly you wouldn't have signed Souray. You'd have done what, then?
The numbers completely support my argument, don't know why you are saying that.

Your numbers are wrong according to capgeek. Souray makes 4 million this year and Sbisa is 2.15. So we have two pairs making over 6 million combined.

I will admit that I had originally thought Fowler's new salary had already taken place this year, but even now realizing it didn't, it still doesn't change the way I view the roster.

As far as what I'd do, I'll gladly answer that but I must delay until later today when I can get on a computer, but I will respond. Yes you're 100% right about Souray. That contract is horrible. I think he will do well this year since its a shorter season but no way I would have given him 3 years. I'm not going to pretend I would have negotiated him down to two either. So when I do post what i would have done I will just assume he wouldn't have signed here unless he was given 3 years, which I wouldn't have given. I will even keep most of the signings consistent with what Murray did with a few tweaks.

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