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01-15-2013, 06:28 AM
  #376
bigd
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
A) Best not to take a rumor-like comment from Pittsburgh media (i.e. a big statement that's not attributed to anybody in the organization) at face value. Better than a 50% chance it's made up.

B) Yes, Byslma commented today. And his comment was that there's a legitimate chance Despres will be paired with Letang on Saturday.

Doesn't exactly sound like the coaching staff is "disappointed" with him (or anything remotely like that). Another dog **** Pittsburgh journalist shows his true colors.
I think the Pens are clearly grooming Despres to be a top 4 D-man. That being said, if they think if he's not ready for that role they may send him back to be a top 2 in WBS and just keep Bortuzzo and Strait. Those 2 are bottom pairing NHL D-men right now. I think the scrimmage will bring the warts to the surface in all the rookies.

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01-15-2013, 07:44 AM
  #377
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I agree with your point. But Gonchar is pretty much better than Martin at everything powerplay related.


no he hasn't. He seriously has a career high 17 points which is 70% higher than his 2nd best season of 10 points. I'm not saying he can't produce. Saying he has proven to be a better producer than Martin is just false though. He produces at a higher rate in his limited role. That's the only conclusion we can make based on the stats we have. We have no idea what he would do if given more opportunity. That's my point. The stats can't just be prorated to more minutes without factoring in the other differences that come with more minutes. Maybe he can do it. I would be thrilled. But there is absolutely no proof that he can. None. The facts we have show that Paul Martin has never come close to being outproduced by Deryk Engelland. Those stats aren't proof the other way either; but its the best we have.
So under your theory, no young player ever gets an opportunity for an expanded role. How do you ever develop a player in your system? How do you decide who gets the ice time? It is just based on salary, draft pedigree, or Yahtzee dice? When has Engelland EVER played as many minutes as Martin? Or PP minutes? How could he ever be expected to produce as many season points as Martin by playing 30% less minutes? Anyone would quickly call me out if I compared their season end point totals if Martin played 30% less games than Engelland wouldn't they?

I don't know what is so hard about pro-rating their production rate based on ice time. This is Engel's 2nd pro season in the NHL. He has improved each year. Isn't pro-rating his production a better predictor than just saying "nope not going to happen" based on???? what? Nothing, but your gut. Sure, it may not be perfect, but it is called an educated decision. You don't immediately turn Engelland's ice time into Martin's....it happens slow and gradually, while you evaluate the results. No one knows what'd going to happen in the future, but it doesn't mean you just sit idle and never try anything. Hell, Martin may become a better player playing less minutes. Who knows?

There is more history showing it could be a good decision rather than a bad one. As I said earlier, it is very unlikely that Engelland COULD BE WORSE than Martin. Martin has performed very poorly on the PP. Engelland isn't my first choice, but he WILL make the team. The worse that could happen is Engelland doesn't do very well and provides Martin-like production on the PP. Big deal. We swapped "like for like" and now the Pens know what they have in Engelland. He is an unknown until he gets the opportunity. If after 10-20 games, he actually is a little worse than Martin, then by all means play the best players. I don't ever care who those players are, just that they are the "best".

The Pens should always be experimenting by swapping out their worst players at anything. PK, PP, 5v5, goaltending, etc. Why shouldn't the Pens constantly try to fix their weaknesses? Isn't this a competitive game?

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01-15-2013, 07:48 AM
  #378
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It must be hockey season, local beat writers are already complaining. This guy is pissed because after flying in from Russia and participating in a 3 hour practice he didn't talk to the media.

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01-15-2013, 07:48 AM
  #379
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Your problem is you take the pro-ration from the stats as "fact". You say it's going to happen based on that stat rather than "it looks like Engelland has some untapped offensive potential based on this stat". That is a reasonable statement. Saying "Engelland would perform better than Martin offensively if given the same ice time because a stat says so" is not a reasonable statement.

As I've said before, stats are useful for projections but are not everything. You have to take into account other things as Ogre has mentioned. You fail to do that on a consistent basis.

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01-15-2013, 07:53 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Dying Alive View Post
It must be hockey season, local beat writers are already complaining. This guy is pissed because after flying in from Russia and participating in a 3 hour practice he didn't talk to the media.

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What an idiot. He's just stirring up controversy so people will read his stuff. Job well done I guess.

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01-15-2013, 08:00 AM
  #381
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What an idiot. He's just stirring up controversy so people will read his stuff. Job well done I guess.
Even Dejan and Rossi are laying into him on Twitter. How inappropriate does your reporting have to be for that to happen?

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01-15-2013, 08:09 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Dying Alive View Post
It must be hockey season, local beat writers are already complaining. This guy is pissed because after flying in from Russia and participating in a 3 hour practice he didn't talk to the media.

Link
What a moron, I wish these guys would be banned from the locker room

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01-15-2013, 08:12 AM
  #383
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It must be hockey season, local beat writers are already complaining. This guy is pissed because after flying in from Russia and participating in a 3 hour practice he didn't talk to the media.

Link
This article makes me appreciate the Pens beat writers.

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01-15-2013, 08:14 AM
  #384
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So under your theory, no young player ever gets an opportunity for an expanded role. How do you ever develop a player in your system? How do you decide who gets the ice time? It is just based on salary, draft pedigree, or Yahtzee dice? When has Engelland EVER played as many minutes as Martin? Or PP minutes? How could he ever be expected to produce as many season points as Martin by playing 30% less minutes? Anyone would quickly call me out if I compared their season end point totals if Martin played 30% less games than Engelland wouldn't they?

I don't know what is so hard about pro-rating their production rate based on ice time. This is Engel's 2nd pro season in the NHL. He has improved each year. Isn't pro-rating his production a better predictor than just saying "nope not going to happen" based on???? what? Nothing, but your gut. Sure, it may not be perfect, but it is called an educated decision. You don't immediately turn Engelland's ice time into Martin's....it happens slow and gradually, while you evaluate the results. No one knows what'd going to happen in the future, but it doesn't mean you just sit idle and never try anything. Hell, Martin may become a better player playing less minutes. Who knows?

There is more history showing it could be a good decision rather than a bad one. As I said earlier, it is very unlikely that Engelland COULD BE WORSE than Martin. Martin has performed very poorly on the PP. Engelland isn't my first choice, but he WILL make the team. The worse that could happen is Engelland doesn't do very well and provides Martin-like production on the PP. Big deal. We swapped "like for like" and now the Pens know what they have in Engelland. He is an unknown until he gets the opportunity. If after 10-20 games, he actually is a little worse than Martin, then by all means play the best players. I don't ever care who those players are, just that they are the "best".

The Pens should always be experimenting by swapping out their worst players at anything. PK, PP, 5v5, goaltending, etc. Why shouldn't the Pens constantly try to fix their weaknesses? Isn't this a competitive game?
1. Deryk Engelland is 30 years old. This isn't some young kid. I would throw Despres or Tangradi or Jeffrey on the powerplay in a second to see what they can do.

2. You are using pro-rated stats way too literally. Stats don't work the way you seem to think they work.

3. The worst that could happen is Engelland could show that he is worse at every PP skill except for shooting. Martin is smarter, a better skater, a better passer, a better stick handler and better at keeping pucks in at the blueline. Sure, give him the shot. I am pretty much positive it won't work. Again, I would love to be proven wrong.

4. Looking at things other than stats doesn't mean I'm going purely on gut. I'm using my eyes and my brain to fill in the blanks that the stats simply cannot answer. Hockey is not played on paper. I get that stats are useful. But when you use them to insinuate that Deryk Engelland could put up similar scoring numbers to Kris Letang under any circumstances then I am sorry, you are using them wrong.

5. There are some guys who simply don't need to be given the opportunity to know that they aren't a good fit. Craig Adams does not need to be given an opportunity on the powerplay. Neither does Tanner Glass or Joe Vitale. IMO, neither does Engelland. I don't trust him there with the puck under pressure. He is a dump and chase guy with a decent shot when its wide open. He won't be doing many fakes. He won't be setting up many one timers. He will be taking low percentage shots into traffic or he will be dumping the puck along the wall. And that's after we get the puck in the zone; which Martin can do way way way better than him. If he does get a chance there, obviously I hope he proves me wrong. I too want the team to be as good as possible. I just don't think it will happen.

Really, there are two things happening here. One, I disagree about the Martin and Engelland thing. But more importantly, I disagree with your complete misuse of statistics.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 01-15-2013 at 08:28 AM.
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01-15-2013, 08:15 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Your problem is you take the pro-ration from the stats as "fact". You say it's going to happen based on that stat rather than "it looks like Engelland has some untapped offensive potential based on this stat". That is a reasonable statement. Saying "Engelland would perform better than Martin offensively if given the same ice time because a stat says so" is not a reasonable statement.

As I've said before, stats are useful for projections but are not everything. You have to take into account other things as Ogre has mentioned. You fail to do that on a consistent basis.
this. I still have a piece of scrap paper here where I calculated TKs games missed due to injury per 60 minutes of ice time. I just laugh every time I see it and can't bring myself to throw it away. Was I arguing with the same person for that one?

edit: I was

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01-15-2013, 08:16 AM
  #386
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Even Dejan and Rossi are laying into him on Twitter. How inappropriate does your reporting have to be for that to happen?


So true...

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01-15-2013, 08:20 AM
  #387
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AKA Netwolf has a day 2 report up on lets go pens. If anyone else was there i'm curious to know who the other D-man was on the 1st PK. He mentions Adams, Glass, Strait, & who else? Anyone know?

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01-15-2013, 08:37 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
1. Deryk Engelland is 30 years old. This isn't some young kid. I would throw Despres or Tangradi or Jeffrey on the powerplay in a second to see what they can do.

2. You are using pro-rated stats way too literally. Stats don't work the way you seem to think they work.

3. The worst that could happen is Engelland could show that he is worse at every PP skill except for shooting. Martin is smarter, a better skater, a better passer, a better stick handler and better at keeping pucks in at the blueline. Sure, give him the shot. I am pretty much positive it won't work. Again, I would love to be proven wrong.

4. Looking at things other than stats doesn't mean I'm going purely on gut. I'm using my eyes and my brain to fill in the blanks that the stats simply cannot answer. Hockey is not played on paper. I get that stats are useful. But when you use them to insinuate that Deryk Engelland could put up similar scoring numbers to Kris Letang under any circumstances then I am sorry, you are using them wrong.

5. There are some guys who simply don't need to be given the opportunity to know that they aren't a good fit. Craig Adams does not need to be given an opportunity on the powerplay. Neither does Tanner Glass or Joe Vitale. IMO, neither does Engelland. I don't trust him there with the puck under pressure. He is a dump and chase guy with a decent shot when its wide open. He won't be doing many fakes. He won't be setting up many one timers. He will be taking low percentage shots into traffic or he will be dumping the puck along the wall. And that's after we get the puck in the zone; which Martin can do way way way better than him. If he does get a chance there, obviously I hope he proves me wrong. I too want the team to be as good as possible. I just don't think it will happen.
Stats don't show panic threshold, hockey sense, lateral skating, etc. necessary to play the point on the PP.

I played the point before and did fine, but I was much more comfortable on the wall. Guys like Malkin and Crosby aren't comfortable at the point either. It takes nerves of steel because if you mis-play the puck, the high defender is going right by you on a breakaway. There are an infinite number of ways you can **** up on the point and send the defender in alone.

Thats why a guy like Martin, marshmallow shot and all, will always play over Engo there.

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01-15-2013, 08:50 AM
  #389
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Any word on who Letang is being paired with? Getting him the right partner moves up to #1 on my list of wants for the Pens.

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01-15-2013, 08:51 AM
  #390
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I appreciate what he did for us, but Craig Adams really needs off this team. Watching him yesterday creek and croke across the ice. Ugh. Intangibles can't make up for extreme lack of ability.

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01-15-2013, 08:54 AM
  #391
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The point of the powerplay is nerve wracking at any level, unless you've done it for a while. There's no one to behind you. You mishandle the puck, and there's a breakaway more than likely going the other way. You're tiptoeing on the line trying to move a puck around and set a play up. It's not an easy position to hold, and every mistake you make is magnified.

I can completely see why guys who are relied upon to score on the PP don't want to play the point. It's not a desirable position, IMO.

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01-15-2013, 09:05 AM
  #392
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Any word on who Letang is being paired with? Getting him the right partner moves up to #1 on my list of wants for the Pens.
Considering Bylsma seems to want to try Orpik and Martin together, I would think Niskanen has a very good chance at landing that job. As Bylsma alluded to yesterday Despres is a possibility if he has a great camp, but that would mean exposing one of the other defensemen to waivers. If Despres does make the team, I could see a hybrid solution where he and Niskanen "shares" time with Letang, in order to limit Despres' minutes.

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01-15-2013, 09:43 AM
  #393
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Clowe has only topped the 20+ goal mark twice in his career, if I am going to move a stud young defenseman, a 2nd rounder and a meh player (Lovejoy), it's going to be for a more consistent goal scorer. I mean as it stands, he has 1 more 20 goal season than Tyler Kennedy. TK is faster, younger, and cheaper and a better defensive player.

I'd rather take my chances with what this team has, than get 2 impending UFA's that might not stick around. Given this team's cap structure, Shero isn't going to pay them their worth either, these guys know that. They'll go to the highest bidder and it's not always a guarantee that players will take a little less to sign with the Pens long term, anymore, either.

I didn't know TK was a top two line winger. Ryan Clowe is more of a Kunitz than that of a Tyler Kennedy. I also agree with the UFA status, but if they are given negotiating rights that's out the window. Clowe also would be creating space much like Kunitz, and he's more fit for that role than, TK. I highly doubt a guy like Clowe needs to score 30+ goals on a line like Malkins. Malkin & Neal have that covered enough leaving Clowe to be his normal 19/24 goal 30/38 assist 52/62 point self.

Yes, Kennedy is younger faster, cheaper, but for how long, he's RFA you know. 2.0 now probably becomes 2.5/2.8, and I see Clowe probably wanting near his with a raise as well at 3.625 to maybe 4.0, but I could see Shero talking him into taking the Kunitz deal since he shouldn't be paid more than him at 3.725, while agreeing with you that not all players will take discounts. At 30 though, I wouldn't see guy's signing major upgraded deals in this new CBA era since his prime saw him taking in 3.625. A 3/4 year deal at 3.725 I could see Clowe warming up to at his age.

I certainly don't expect to see TK in the top six as a permanent solution, and I wouldn't trade off both TK and one of our top D-prospects for a UFA winger either if he's not able to be signed during the trade process, but I would if they were allowed.



Kunitz, Crosby, Dupuis
Clowe, Malkin, Neal
Cooke, Sutter,Tangradi, Jeffrey, Vitale, Bennett
Glass, Adams, Vitale

Kennedy is more replaceable than any top two line wingers.

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01-15-2013, 10:03 AM
  #394
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Yeah there seems to be some real undervaluing of Ryan Clowe by a few guys. The dude pots 50-60 points consistently and has size, physicality, playmaking ability, and can fight. What more could we want in a complimentary winger next to the best player in the game and his all star sniping winger?

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01-15-2013, 10:03 AM
  #395
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Live stream of practice. http://video.penguins.nhl.com/videoc...t-twt-penguins

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01-15-2013, 10:06 AM
  #396
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Yeah there seems to be some real undervaluing of Ryan Clowe by a few guys. The dude pots 50-60 points consistently and has size, physicality, playmaking ability, and can fight. What more could we want in a complimentary winger next to the best player in the game and his all star sniping winger?
dude, did you even see tyler kennedy's even strength points per 60 minutes of ice time?

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01-15-2013, 10:14 AM
  #397
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Thanks....


Vokoun certainly had enough time to get a new mask made up.

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01-15-2013, 10:14 AM
  #398
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thanks, i'm watching this over my morning coffee. MAF and Vokoun are having a dialogue while stretching. fascinating stuff.


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01-15-2013, 10:15 AM
  #399
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Bennett on Geno's line today.

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01-15-2013, 10:19 AM
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is that tall righty in the baby blue Bortuzzo? big dude.

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