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Foligno could be Goose 2.0, at least in the short run

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04-15-2013, 10:53 AM
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joshjull
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Foligno could be Goose 2.0, at least in the short run

We've badly needed a bottom 6 center with some size and toughness. We've also needed a center thats strong on draws. Something I was thinking about after watching Foligno play center the last two games was could he be the answer to those needs?

Its an incredibly small sample size but he has been dominant on facoffs winning 75% -vs- Philly (6 of 8) and 82% -vs- Tampa (9 of 11). But what really got me thinking about this was how much more engaged he is and has to be as a center. It keeps his feet moving and gets him more involved in the play, particularly on the physical side of things. Plus his energy level/focus seems better with less minutes.

Next season start him out as he is now, and Goose was when he came up, as a 4th line center. See how his face-offs progress and potentially plug him in as a faceoff specialist in certain situations if he stays strong in that department. It would certainly fill some needs this team has.



Thoughts

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04-15-2013, 11:04 AM
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It's certainly worth a shot, as long as he doesn't remove the physical aspect of his game.

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04-15-2013, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
It's certainly worth a shot, as long as he doesn't remove the physical aspect of his game.
Why would you think he would do that? I thought he was more consistently engaged in that department the last two games.

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04-15-2013, 11:54 AM
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The prospect of having SIZE down the middle in Grigorenko, Girgensons and Foligno is certainly intriguing.

He's better skater and offensive player than Goose. But the intangibles and size are there.

I'd like for him to garner top-nine minutes, though.

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04-15-2013, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Loods View Post
The prospect of having SIZE down the middle in Grigorenko, Girgensons and Foligno is certainly intriguing.

He's better skater and offensive player than Goose. But the intangibles and size are there.

I'd like for him to garner top-nine minutes, though.
I'm 50/50 on this for the same reason...

Does the benefit of having a Goose like bottom 6 center... offset the loss of Foligno's size and "ability to be" aggressive in the top 6?

half a dozen/half a dozen

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04-15-2013, 12:03 PM
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Until Kea is ready to go, I don't see why not.

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04-15-2013, 12:22 PM
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It wouldn't hurt him to round out his game and should make him more valued as a top-9 winger since he has familiarity with defensive coverage and faceoffs. They certainly lack road graders in the lineup, and as Jame put it 50/50 on the benefit.

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04-15-2013, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Why would you think he would do that? I thought he was more consistently engaged in that department the last two games.
"Goose 2.0" :v

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04-15-2013, 01:31 PM
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I think I heard mention that he played some C in Juniors

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04-15-2013, 02:45 PM
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Mergus merganser
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If he turns into goose V 2.0 I'll be very disappointed.

He has WAY more offensive skill than Goose ever had. We're talking about a guy with 30 points in his first 56 games (44 point pace). I don't think he'll ever be a 70 point guy, but if he can be a 50 point player who occasionally reaches 60, I'll call that a success.

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04-15-2013, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergus merganser View Post
If he turns into goose V 2.0 I'll be very disappointed.

He has WAY more offensive skill than Goose ever had. We're talking about a guy with 30 points in his first 56 games (44 point pace). I don't think he'll ever be a 70 point guy, but if he can be a 50 point player who occasionally reaches 60, I'll call that a success.
Dunno about that. Goose and Marcus have pretty similar amateur and AHL numbers.

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04-15-2013, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergus merganser View Post
If he turns into goose V 2.0 I'll be very disappointed.

He has WAY more offensive skill than Goose ever had. We're talking about a guy with 30 points in his first 56 games (44 point pace). I don't think he'll ever be a 70 point guy, but if he can be a 50 point player who occasionally reaches 60, I'll call that a success.
WAY more?

I'm not even sure it's SLIGHTLY more...

A consistent 50 pt player who occasionally reaches 60???? I thought we were talking about Marcus Foligno... the player you just described is Scott Hartnell

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04-15-2013, 03:35 PM
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I say use this season to see how long this can keep up, then keep him in the mix for both top nine winger and 4th line C responsibilities and hire people smart enough to know when to use him where. We don't know where he'll be needed more yet.

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04-15-2013, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
WAY more?

I'm not even sure it's SLIGHTLY more...

A consistent 50 pt player who occasionally reaches 60???? I thought we were talking about Marcus Foligno... the player you just described is Scott Hartnell
He is on pace to hit 44 points in his first 82 NHL games. That is more points than goose EVER scored in a single season by 8 points.

You wouldn't consider that way more offensive potential? The kid is a rookie.

How many points did Vanek have as a rookie? 48.....

Now, no, I am not saying he has elite skill, but he is more than a grinder. Goose is and always was a 4th liner. At the very least, Foligno is a 3rd liner with the potential to be a 2nd liner.

Does he need to have PPG potential to have way more offensive skill than Gaustad? Jesus, gooses' career high is 36 points. 36!

I don't know if Foligno is underrated, or Goose is incredibly overrated.

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04-15-2013, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
Dunno about that. Goose and Marcus have pretty similar amateur and AHL numbers.
No, no they don't.

You can't compare their amateur numbers, they played in very different leagues.

As for the AHL, Foligno scored at a .71 PPG average and goose scored at a .54 clip.

It took Goose 3 full AHL seasons to break into the line-up, it took Foligno half of one season. Foligno was 20 when he got to the NHL, goose was 22. The only thing they have in common is that they are about the same size.

I guess those are similar numbers?

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04-15-2013, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergus merganser View Post
He is on pace to hit 44 points in his first 82 NHL games. That is more points than goose EVER scored in a single season by 8 points.

You wouldn't consider that way more offensive potential? The kid is a rookie.

How many points did Vanek have as a rookie? 48.....

Now, no, I am not saying he has elite skill, but he is more than a grinder. Goose is and always was a 4th liner. At the very least, Foligno is a 3rd liner with the potential to be a 2nd liner.

Does he need to have PPG potential to have way more offensive skill than Gaustad? Jesus, gooses' career high is 36 points. 36!

I don't know if Foligno is underrated, or Goose is incredibly overrated.
cool.... Drew Stafford scored 21 pts in the final 21 games of his first season as a pro... how'd that ratio hold up?

If you are using those 14 games from last year to project Foligno's career scoring potential, you might be Do you expect him to maintain a 26% shooting percentage??? lol

Foligno is going to be a career 30 pt player, who occasionally hits 40 pts...

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04-15-2013, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mergus merganser View Post
No, no they don't.

You can't compare their amateur numbers, they played in very different leagues.

As for the AHL, Foligno scored at a .71 PPG average and goose scored at a .54 clip.

It took Goose 3 full AHL seasons to break into the line-up, it took Foligno half of one season. Foligno was 20 when he got to the NHL, goose was 22. The only thing they have in common is that they are about the same size.

I guess those are similar numbers?
Explain to me the specifics on how the leagues are different in a way that would negate comparing point totals and you might have a point. Saying the leagues are different doesn't mean anything.

It also makes no difference how long it took each player to break the lineup. Gaustad's first AHL season produced more points (53 in 80) than Foligno's. Just because Foligno got called up sooner doesn't mean anything.

You're seriously overestimating Foligno's offensive capabilities.

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04-15-2013, 04:16 PM
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Explain to me the specifics on how the leagues are different in a way that would negate comparing point totals and you might have a point. Saying the leagues are different doesn't mean anything.

It also makes no difference how long it took each player to break the lineup. Gaustad's first AHL season produced more points (53 in 80) than Foligno's. Just because Foligno got called up sooner doesn't mean anything.

You're seriously overestimating Foligno's offensive capabilities.
Look at the WHL leading scorers in 2001-2002 (Goose's last season) and look at the OHL leading scorers in 2010-2011 (Foligno's last season). They are very different. Also, why do we care about their junior hockey stats? Why not worry about their AHL and NHL production?

Second, Really? So better players don't typically break into the league sooner? Sorry, you're right, the better players get to the NHL when they are 22.

Is the age in which they break into the NHL the only indication of skill? Obviously not, but you can't discount it completely. For Foligno to get to the NHL and succeed at 20 is impressive.

Convenient to ignore the fact Foligno only played 60 games in his first AHL season while scoring at a 54 point pace.

How about this season in the AHL? 27 points in 33 games. Goose scored 31 in 78 his second AHL season. So Foligno almost reached his full season point production in less than half a season.....

I don't see how saying the kid has the potential to be a 50 point player is overrating.

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04-15-2013, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mergus merganser View Post
He is on pace to hit 44 points in his first 82 NHL games. That is more points than goose EVER scored in a single season by 8 points.

You wouldn't consider that way more offensive potential? The kid is a rookie.

How many points did Vanek have as a rookie? 48.....

Now, no, I am not saying he has elite skill, but he is more than a grinder. Goose is and always was a 4th liner. At the very least, Foligno is a 3rd liner with the potential to be a 2nd liner.

Does he need to have PPG potential to have way more offensive skill than Gaustad? Jesus, gooses' career high is 36 points. 36!

I don't know if Foligno is underrated, or Goose is incredibly overrated.
Agree. I think some people maybe had too high of expectations for Foligno this year after his hot streak at the end of last season, but the kid has still shown a good amount of upside. And he's still just a rookie on a bad team learning how to be a good/effective NHLer. I think at worst he's a good 3rd liner long term (bonus value if he proves we can plug him in there as a C or a wing), and at best a complementary top 6 player, ie: not skilled enough to be the focal point of a top 6 line, but good enough to keep up while creating some space with his grit. Maybe a Scott Hartnell lite as his max upside. He could also be the next Drew Stafford, or not even be that good. But he does have upside.

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04-15-2013, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
cool.... Drew Stafford scored 21 pts in the final 21 games of his first season as a pro... how'd that ratio hold up?

If you are using those 14 games from last year to project Foligno's career scoring potential, you might be Do you expect him to maintain a 26% shooting percentage??? lol

Foligno is going to be a career 30 pt player, who occasionally hits 40 pts...
Good argument, because I clearly maintained that Foligno would be a PPG player because of how he finished last season.

You really believe that Foligno has already reached his scoring potential at 21 years of age? I disagree wholeheartedly. Only time will tell, but to say he doesn't have the potential to reach 50 points is . He is already scoring at a 33 point pace even if you ignore last season. I think most people would say this season has been a bit of a disappointment for him, not just in scoring but in his physical play.

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04-15-2013, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
cool.... Drew Stafford scored 21 pts in the final 21 games of his first season as a pro... how'd that ratio hold up?

If you are using those 14 games from last year to project Foligno's career scoring potential, you might be Do you expect him to maintain a 26% shooting percentage??? lol

Foligno is going to be a career 30 pt player, who occasionally hits 40 pts...
It's not any more reasonable to say "Foligno is going to be a career 30 pt player" really. He could as well average 40 points. I personally feel like I have little idea how he will pan out offensively, which imo is the reasonable position to take. Power forwards are very hard to project.

It is true that he has no elite offensive tools, unlike Kassian who has elite hands for a power forward. I'm not overly encouraged regarding his offensive outlook, but I won't put a limit on it at this point. I'm more concerned with him settling into being a physical force and defensively strong player. That's why I like the idea of playing him at center for the remaining 5 games. Let him experience the game in a slightly different way. Can't hurt.

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04-15-2013, 06:05 PM
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Isn't foligno on pace for 30+ point this year over an 82 game season? He's 21 you gotta believe he's going to improve to the 40-50 range

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04-15-2013, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mergus merganser View Post
He is on pace to hit 44 points in his first 82 NHL games. That is more points than goose EVER scored in a single season by 8 points.

You wouldn't consider that way more offensive potential? The kid is a rookie.

How many points did Vanek have as a rookie? 48.....

Now, no, I am not saying he has elite skill, but he is more than a grinder. Goose is and always was a 4th liner. At the very least, Foligno is a 3rd liner with the potential to be a 2nd liner.

Does he need to have PPG potential to have way more offensive skill than Gaustad? Jesus, gooses' career high is 36 points. 36!

I don't know if Foligno is underrated, or Goose is incredibly overrated.
Couple points

1). The bolded is a completely disingenuous way to argue his offensive potential. What makes someone a player that can put up 40, 50 or 60pts in a season is to actually do it in a season. Its showing the ability to do it during the grind of a full regular season. You don't get to add on that great 14gm run at the end of last season to his current season total and argue it shows he's a 44pt player. Those 14gms were followed by roughly 9.5 months away from the NHL. They have nothing to do with his current season.

2) With #1 out of the way, Foligno is currently on pace for 33pts (17pts in 42gms) and thats with his points per game dropping since he only has 1pt in the last 8 games. But again, since this is a shortened season, its still hard to make definitive statements on his offensive potential.

3) But the biggest point, the one you're missing, is I'm not saying Foligno's development should end with him as a 4th line center. I said FOR NOW have him center the 4th line and see what he does with it.

My hope is he starts on the 4th line at center next season and works his way up to 3rd line center. The ultimate goal down the line is turning him into a physical 3rd line two way center. One thats strong on draws and can put up 15+ goals and 40+pts with regularity. That would be a fantastic addition to the roster.

My point with the thread is turning him into Goose next season as the starting point not the end point.

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04-15-2013, 06:21 PM
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Isn't foligno on pace for 30+ point this year over an 82 game season? He's 21 you gotta believe he's going to improve to the 40-50 range
Except the argument was that he'll be a 50-60 point player. Dustin Brown's a 50-60 points player. I don't see Foligno putting up Brown numbers any time soon.

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04-15-2013, 06:40 PM
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Except the argument was that he'll be a 50-60 point player. Dustin Brown's a 50-60 points player. I don't see Foligno putting up Brown numbers any time soon.

No, actually if you re-read my first post I said " I don't think he'll ever be a 70 point guy, but if he can be a 50 point player who occasionally reaches 60, I'll call that a success."

Where in there did I say he will be a 50-60 point player? I implied he has the potential to be that player. I don't see how any logical person could argue that he doesn't have the potential to be a 50 point player. Will he be a 50 point player? Your guess is as good as mine. The reality is that he already is a 30+ point player.

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