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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Relocation options post-expansion?

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Old
01-22-2013, 05:59 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
As someone who has been to Niagara, I felt it was different because the city is built up around those concepts. I don't know what you want me to say? I've been to Regina the past 4 years for the CFL Labour Day game, stayed at the Ramada downtown. We had to cab out of downtown to find non-casino nightlife. The gamblers amongst my friends didn't mind, but to an outsider looking in, it was a black hole.
Nothing, I'm just trying to point out reasons and examples for as to why I disagree with you. I'm offering my basis for disagreeing with your opinion.

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01-22-2013, 06:50 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
Disagree.

There are the 3 main HECFI venues (Hamilton Place, Copps Coliseum, the Convention Centre) , numerous other theatres ( Aquarius, Staircase, Hamilton Conservatory For The Arts, Hamilton theatre Inc., Citadel, Artword Artbar, etc.), countless art studios, monthly art crawls, live music clubs (Absinthe, This Ain't Hollywood, The Casbah), about 200 restaurants, coffee shops, Bulldogs hockey, the strip along King William St., the waterfront has skating (ice in the winter, roller in warm months), restaurants. That's just off the top of my head.

None of these are Hess Village nor Augusta Street.
I don't consider most of those as "night life": Hecfi venues aren't regularly open after 10 PM. Neither are the theatres. Bulldogs games don't regularly end after 10/10:30. I don't think the art studios are open late either.

Art crawl is Augusta street, is it not?

I thought The Casbah and This Ain't Hollywood were on/ near Augusta.

Absinthe has been terrible since it stopped being The Remedy. Homegrown Hamilton is okay for music, but not much else.

What restaurants are downtown? Are we referring to the Portuguese soccer bars? Because I think I can count the real restaurants all on one hand:
Bronzie's, Mattina's, the one near the dowtown University campus with the upstairs and downstairs (the name escapes me), and the two in Jackson Square.

Williams closes at 11, and skating closes no later than that: That's not night-life.

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Niagara Falls is different because it is a tourist destination. Hamilton is not, nor will it be with a casino. The province will be putting casinos everywhere so Hamilton's would be dependent on locals who's money will be sucked out the local economy by the black hole where it otherwise would have been spent at local businesses.
It can and will be if the city stops the backwards thinking. Unfortunately, certain football team owners encourage and enforce the backwards line of thinking and prefer sticking with the status quo. Anything that's truly different and can force a change in the city's landscape (a casino, a waterfront stadium, a velodrome)is slowly stifled and shutdown because this city and its citizens are stuck in their out-of-date frame of minds. The only reason this city can't be a hotspot for people is the lack of imagination and the rise of apathy in the locals because of it.

It won't be dependant on locals only, just like casinos in Niagara Falls aren't dependant on locals only. It will give people outside the city more reasons to come here and support the economy, that is a good thing no matter what.

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01-23-2013, 08:47 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
I don't consider most of those as "night life": Hecfi venues aren't regularly open after 10 PM. Neither are the theatres. Bulldogs games don't regularly end after 10/10:30. I don't think the art studios are open late either.
Wasn't aware of your definition of night life. So basically you mean bars.

Quote:
Art crawl is Augusta street, is it not?
No. Art crawl is James St N, and for someone not to know that is a pretty clear indication that they don't know downtown Hamilton.


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I thought The Casbah and This Ain't Hollywood were on/ near Augusta.
Again, nope. Queen St. and James N respectively.

Quote:
Absinthe has been terrible since it stopped being The Remedy.
Because you don't like it does not mean it doesn't exist. Not sure if you're aware of their move to bigger venue because of their popularity. King William and Hughson at the rear of the Right House building. https://www.facebook.com/clubabsinthe


Quote:
Homegrown Hamilton is okay for music, but not much else.
Again Casbah, This Ain't Hollywood are renowned for their live music. Also try Baltimore house, Corktown, Stonewalls and Freeway. There are more than a few...

Quote:
What restaurants are downtown? Are we referring to the Portuguese soccer bars? Because I think I can count the real restaurants all on one hand:
Bronzie's, Mattina's, the one near the dowtown University campus with the upstairs and downstairs (the name escapes me), and the two in Jackson Square.
There are tones of restaurants downtown. Not trying to pick on you, but as a regular to downtown restaurants, it really seems you are out of touch with downtown. I'd be happy to continue this discussion via PM if you'd like.

Off the top of my head, some of my fave restaurants that we frequent:

Harbour Diner (James N) http://www.harbourdiner.com/gallery.html
Wass (Ethoipian - James S) http://www.wassethiopianrestaurant.com/
La Piazza (James S) http://www.lapiazza.ca/
Boo's Bistro ( James S) http://www.boosbistro.ca/
Rapscallion (John S) http://www.rapscallionrestaurant.com/
La Cantina ( Walnut) http://www.lacantinahamilton.ca/
Papagayo (Mexican - King W)
Kampai (Japanese - King W) http://www.kampai.ca/
Slainte (Bowen) http://www.slainteirishpub.ca/index2.html
U Saho Korean Grill House ( John St) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRn05qbwGko
London Tap House (John and Main) http://www.londontaphouse.com/
Thai Memory ( King William) http://www.thaimemory.ca/
My Thai ( John N) http://www.mythai.ca/
Capri (Italian - John N) http://www.capriristorante.ca/
Sirloin Cellar ( James N)
A Tast of Himalaya ( Indian - King William) http://www.currypalacerestaurant.com/contact.html
Gate of India ( James N) http://www.gateofindia.ca/
Mex-I-Can ( James N) http://menusonly.com/hamilton/index....mex-i-can.html
BenThanh ( Vitanamese - James N) http://www.benthanh.ca/
Pho Dau Bo ( Vietnamese - James and Cannon) http://www.pho-daubo.ca/
August 8 (Sushi - Wilson and Hughson) http://www.august8.ca/
Acclamation ( Portuguese - James N - not a bar/soccer club) http://www.acclamation.ca/
Wild Orchid ( Seafood - Portuguese - James N) http://www.wildorchidrestaurant.ca/
Sarcoa ( Live out door music in warm months - Waterfront - Discovery Drive) http://www.sarcoa.ca/
Stonewalls (York) http://www.stonewallshamilton.com/
Tailgate Charlies (John S) http://www.tailgatecharlies.ca/

Waiting for Anchor bar to open in Jackson Square, first location in Canada - home of the original Buffalo chicken Wing) http://www.anchorbar.ca/Anchor-Bar-About-Us.html

Also there's the localicious delicious dozen every year http://www.downtownlocalicious.org/delicious-dozen.html

Here's a more complete list http://downtownhamilton.org/wp-conte...rant-Guide.pdf

And lots not forget the long resurgent Locke St.

Again, I'd be happy to continue this discussion via PM if you'd like and i could give you some recommendations


Last edited by Hamilton Tigers: 01-23-2013 at 09:18 AM.
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Old
01-23-2013, 11:42 AM
  #129
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SLC would be a great market I think. When they brought the Jazz there, it took a little while but since, the place everywhere in the state has consistently competitive basketball at the youth levels and up through college with the emergence of BYU as a solid tourny team.

I could see SLC as a solid market, however small that is already set up for something like this. It wouldn't be a transition overnight, but with a natural rival in CO, decent travel options as SLC is a great airport, cold-weather fanbase, stadium, and is financially stable city. I think some adjustments to the rink would have to go into production though..

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Old
01-23-2013, 01:29 PM
  #130
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Salt Lake City is an interesting option.... in a few decades. Right now, it's too small for both the NHL and NBA. But, given that area's growth and wealth, they'll be under consideration by the other three leagues in a couple decades, guaranteed.

Given the prevalence of winter sports in Utah, if the NHL and USA Hockey were halfway intelligent, they'd be working on prepping the groundwork for youth hockey and building interest in the sport now.

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01-23-2013, 02:08 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
Wasn't aware of your definition of night life. So basically you mean bars.
No, I mean night life. In this city that happens to mean bars and restaurants. I don't know about you, but I enjoy doing things other than eating and drinking.

Quote:
No. Art crawl is James St N,

Again, nope. Queen St. and James N respectively.

Because you don't like it does not mean it doesn't exist. Not sure if you're aware of their move to bigger venue because of their popularity. King William and Hughson at the rear of the Right House building. https://www.facebook.com/clubabsinthe
I am and I like to be able to understand people when they sing. I'm sure many people who come to Hamilton would, too.

If a business exists and people don't enjoy it or go to it then it's not going to be in business for very long.

Quote:
Again Casbah, This Ain't Hollywood are renowned for their live music. Also try Baltimore house, Corktown, Stonewalls and Freeway. There are more than a few...

There are tones of restaurants downtown. Not trying to pick on you, but as a regular to downtown restaurants, it really seems you are out of touch with downtown. I'd be happy to continue this discussion via PM if you'd like.
No sir, you are out of touch with reality: These places aren't drawing the people to the city like a true hub of entertainment would. Though this point will be made evident later. Also, why are every single one of these places a restaurant or bar?
Quote:
Off the top of my head, some of my fave restaurants that we frequent:

Harbour Diner (James N) http://www.harbourdiner.com/gallery.html
That's in the North End, not downtown and for someone not to know that is a pretty clear indication that they don't know downtown Hamilton.

I remember the last time I made the walk from Corktown to the Harbour Diner, too. They really draw people to the area and keep them there like Augusta and Hess do.


Quote:
Wass (Ethoipian - James S) http://www.wassethiopianrestaurant.com/
La Piazza (James S) http://www.lapiazza.ca/
Boo's Bistro ( James S) http://www.boosbistro.ca/
Rapscallion (John S) http://www.rapscallionrestaurant.com/
La Cantina ( Walnut) http://www.lacantinahamilton.ca/
Papagayo (Mexican - King W)
Kampai (Japanese - King W) http://www.kampai.ca/
Slainte (Bowen) http://www.slainteirishpub.ca/index2.html
U Saho Korean Grill House ( John St) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRn05qbwGko
London Tap House (John and Main) http://www.londontaphouse.com/
The Tap House isn't my style, but it does draw people to the venue and isn't just a restaurant or bar. It's also built on an island by itself: It's in between 3 offices (note: I know Tailgates is near-by, I will touch on that later).
Quote:
Thai Memory ( King William) http://www.thaimemory.ca/
My Thai ( John N) http://www.mythai.ca/
Capri (Italian - John N) http://www.capriristorante.ca/
Sirloin Cellar ( James N)
A Tast of Himalaya ( Indian - King William) http://www.currypalacerestaurant.com/contact.html
Gate of India ( James N) http://www.gateofindia.ca/
Mex-I-Can ( James N) http://menusonly.com/hamilton/index....mex-i-can.html
BenThanh ( Vitanamese - James N) http://www.benthanh.ca/
Pho Dau Bo ( Vietnamese - James and Cannon) http://www.pho-daubo.ca/
August 8 (Sushi - Wilson and Hughson) http://www.august8.ca/
Acclamation ( Portuguese - James N - not a bar/soccer club) http://www.acclamation.ca/
Wild Orchid ( Seafood - Portuguese - James N) http://www.wildorchidrestaurant.ca/
This is exactly the crap I'm talking about: These places aren't drawing people to downtown. I walked by those places every week for four years and not once was I compelled to go inside.

Our one way streets (Hughson and Canon) aren't built for stopping for a bite to eat, either: They're built to get us out of at area as quickly as possible.

And if I was going to head to a Pho Dau Bo, I'd head to the one in Stoney Creek that has an Eastside's, Tony Roma's, and BP less than a 5 minute walk away.
Quote:
Sarcoa ( Live out door music in warm months - Waterfront - Discovery Drive) http://www.sarcoa.ca/
That's in the North End not downtown and for someone not to know that is a pretty clear indication that they don't know downtown Hamilton.

Quote:
Stonewalls (York) http://www.stonewallshamilton.com/
Tailgate Charlies (John S) http://www.tailgatecharlies.ca/
Tailgates it okay, but it's for an older crowd. It's walking distance from the Tap House, so that's a plus, but there needs to be more there. Put a BP or an Eastside's along that strip.


Quote:
Waiting for Anchor bar to open in Jackson Square, first location in Canada - home of the original Buffalo chicken Wing) http://www.anchorbar.ca/Anchor-Bar-About-Us.html
This is an excellent idea in my opinion, now the shops in the mall just need to be open later.

Think about what it could be with a Casino near-by, though: You could hit-up a Bulldogs game until 10, grab a bite to eat right next door from 10-11:30 and then head to the casino. Now that would be a real "night life".

Quote:
Also there's the localicious delicious dozen every year http://www.downtownlocalicious.org/delicious-dozen.html

Here's a more complete list http://downtownhamilton.org/wp-conte...rant-Guide.pdf

And lots not forget the long resurgent Locke St.
Locke's only good during the music festival, imo. That is a good festival, though.

Quote:
Again, I'd be happy to continue this discussion via PM if you'd like and i could give you some recommendations
Please do, homes! I actually need that information for work.

Anyway, my overall point was that the "things to do at night in Hamilton" are all bars and restaurants built below someone's house.

Give me a Casino, a bowling alley, a Boston Pizza, an updated movie theatre (like the Stoney Creek Mountain one) on King street near Jackson Square, Hamilton Place, The Sheridan and Copps, and give me LRT to get me to and from there as quickly as possibly.
That would be a real "night life".

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Old
01-23-2013, 02:14 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Salt Lake City is an interesting option.... in a few decades. Right now, it's too small for both the NHL and NBA. But, given that area's growth and wealth, they'll be under consideration by the other three leagues in a couple decades, guaranteed.

Given the prevalence of winter sports in Utah, if the NHL and USA Hockey were halfway intelligent, they'd be working on prepping the groundwork for youth hockey and building interest in the sport now.
What about giving them a CHL team?

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01-23-2013, 02:35 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
What about giving them a CHL team?
By CHL, do you mean Canadian or Central? Because they already have a team in the significantly more stable and less-likely to collapse ECHL, so no point in a Central Hockey League team (assuming they're even around in a few years).

Canadian? Pretty far trek from Salt Lake City to the nearest WHL team....

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01-23-2013, 03:28 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
By CHL, do you mean Canadian or Central? Because they already have a team in the significantly more stable and less-likely to collapse ECHL, so no point in a Central Hockey League team (assuming they're even around in a few years).

Canadian? Pretty far trek from Salt Lake City to the nearest WHL team....
I meant the Canadian Hockey League.

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01-23-2013, 03:59 PM
  #135
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Hamilton, Ontario; Quebec City; Seattle, Washington; and Brooklyn, NY (Isles).

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01-23-2013, 05:53 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
I meant the Canadian Hockey League.
fyi, Utah is not based in SLC, but a suburb called West Valley City, WHERE The Maverik Center is located, DyerMaker 66, WVC was also the site used in the SLC Olympics for hockey, etc....

Keep in mind, as NFS Said, the Grizzlies were briefly in the AHL, but were facing dual suits from both Dallas AND Glendale, DUE TO Payment, or lack of same UNDER THE PDC agreements, the Grizzlies ownership elected to cancel the remaining 2 years w/ PHX, after Dallas had left and established the Texas Stars, 1st, as a conditional franchise, then acquiring the Iowa franchise, which had been terminated due to violation of league bylaws (you cannot use a franchise to get a loan); Phoenix then moved to SA, and is now in Portland.... the Grizzlies franchise that had been acquired after the collapse of the IHL in 2001, then was sold to Dan Gilbert, owner and successor of SVSE properties, in Cleveland, franchise now known as Lake Erie, affiliate of the Avalanche, the current Grizzlies franchise is actually the Lexington Men O'War, THAT tried to capitalize on the SVSE Success in Lexington (now the Worcester Sharks);

Grizzlies ownership claimed at the time of the "demotion", THAT the affiliation issues were hurting their bottom line, THEY HAVE SINCE, signed a limited affiliation w/ the Calgary and Abbotsford franchises.... there's a gentlemen's agreement that other leagues are not to enter another league's territory which is why Utah isn't an option for another league as long as the Grizzlies are an active franchise.

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01-23-2013, 11:25 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
fyi, Utah is not based in SLC, but a suburb called West Valley City, WHERE The Maverik Center is located, DyerMaker 66, WVC was also the site used in the SLC Olympics for hockey, etc....

Keep in mind, as NFS Said, the Grizzlies were briefly in the AHL, but were facing dual suits from both Dallas AND Glendale, DUE TO Payment, or lack of same UNDER THE PDC agreements, the Grizzlies ownership elected to cancel the remaining 2 years w/ PHX, after Dallas had left and established the Texas Stars, 1st, as a conditional franchise, then acquiring the Iowa franchise, which had been terminated due to violation of league bylaws (you cannot use a franchise to get a loan); Phoenix then moved to SA, and is now in Portland.... the Grizzlies franchise that had been acquired after the collapse of the IHL in 2001, then was sold to Dan Gilbert, owner and successor of SVSE properties, in Cleveland, franchise now known as Lake Erie, affiliate of the Avalanche, the current Grizzlies franchise is actually the Lexington Men O'War, THAT tried to capitalize on the SVSE Success in Lexington (now the Worcester Sharks);

Grizzlies ownership claimed at the time of the "demotion", THAT the affiliation issues were hurting their bottom line, THEY HAVE SINCE, signed a limited affiliation w/ the Calgary and Abbotsford franchises.... there's a gentlemen's agreement that other leagues are not to enter another league's territory which is why Utah isn't an option for another league as long as the Grizzlies are an active franchise.
That's pretty insane on the other leagues' part.

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01-24-2013, 06:16 PM
  #138
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Hamilton, Ontario; Quebec City; Seattle, Washington; and Brooklyn, NY (Isles).
I don't believe that the Islanders move counts as a franchise relocation

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01-25-2013, 10:25 PM
  #139
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I'm going to disagree with that. I think the NBA certainly might expand; however, I say that with a condition... Could this be the time when the NHL expands before the NBA does? And yes, I think it could be. But it's then when the NBA will expand. If the NHL does it, the NBA will likely follow suit.

Now another possibility... Hypothetically, what happens if Hansen and the Seattle group don't get the Kings? The fight to keep the NBA in Sacramento succeeds, at least for the time being... Is there another likely NBA relocation option out there right now? And if not, does the NBA just sit back and let Seattle waiting to get an NBA team again? Without a relocation option, Seattle definitely becomes an expansion option for the NBA. It's in that case though that I definitely hope the NHL makes the first move.

Now let me bring this back to Kansas City, which is what you were responding to...


I think that KC definitely could be an option for the NHL first (unless the NBA takes the expansion route with Seattle, and KC might become a 2nd location). The problem is though, Does the NHL want KC, and is there a potential owner out there somewhere who would want to bring the NHL to KC? I think KC is a risky expansion option for the NHL (perhaps for the NBA too, but I don't know). KC, IMO, seems more like a possible relocation option if needed. A team that'll cost less to bring there, and which could hit the ice being essentially immediately competitive. Given that advantage, I think it reduces substantially that risk which KC presents.
I have a bizarre suspicion that the best case scenario for Sac's NBA future may be a "Cleveland Browns" situation. The NBA is likely to take the sure money from Seattle now, and give Sacramento a conditional expansion team and a few years to get a new arena built. Obviously, they'd have to add a 32nd team (I'd take KC or Vancouver if they ask me)

As for the NHL, it's probably Quebec and Seattle for the 2015 season. That still leaves Ontario and Houston available for any relocation (which, other than maybe PHX, ain't happening)

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01-26-2013, 04:35 PM
  #140
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My personal belief is that the most successful attempts at expansion that are not in major markets like in Seattle, Kansas City or Houston will be in mid-size Canadian or American cities without a professional franchise. Precedents that I personally see as examples include Raleigh (NHL), Oklahoma City (NBA), San Antonio (NBA), Columbus (NHL), Memphis (NBA), San Jose (NHL), and Sacramento (NBA) Cities that I think fit this mold include:

Quebec City, QC
Hamilton, ON
Hartford, CT
Louisville, KY
Omaha, NE
Norfolk, VA
Austin, TX

I could also see a strong case for underrepresented areas of the northern/central US and Canada that could potentially support a regional professional team, one representing a state or province. Teams of this mold I could see in the following:

Saskatchewan (Either in Regina, Saskatoon, or a designated neutral location between the two cities)
Kentucky (Louisville)
Greater Ontario (Represented by a team in Markham or Kitchener)
Nebraska (Omaha)
New Brunswick/Nova Scotia/Newfoundland (Represented in Halifax, perhaps a team representing the entire Acadian/E. Canadian region)

I personally think that a bump-up to 36 teams in fifteen years is plausible, if not likely. But only after Phoenix ownership is resolved, which I think it will be this or next year. Even Atlanta could be feasible for a return in another ten years, people that argued against that market often overlook at how poorly managed that team was by the Spirit group. My prediction for the first two expansion locations, however, is Quebec City and Seattle. Both have upcoming arena deals that make a lot of sense for the league to pursue, and both have a strong existing hockey fanbases that wouldn't take too much investment to develop, especially in the case of Quebec City, who even have a long-storied moniker available for use in the Nordiques.

I personally see an underdog possibility as Austin, TX, and see it as a better potential NHL market than Houston. No existing professional team (in Houston you have the Astros, Texans, and Rockets all competing for market share, likely very limited room for the NHL), an innovative, vibrant, and fast growing city with a large high-income/high-tech/high-education base (hence a large potential financial base for a local ownership group), and a nice rivalry available with the Dallas Stars.


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01-26-2013, 04:47 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Hockyluv21 View Post
No existing professional team (in Houston you have the Astros, Texans, and Rockets all competing for market share, likely very limited room for the NHL), an innovative, vibrant, and fast growing city with a large high-income/high-tech/high-education base (hence a large potential financial base for a local ownership group).
The University of Texas is for all intents and purposes their professional team.

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01-26-2013, 04:51 PM
  #142
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The University of Texas is for all intents and purposes their professional team.
Competing for market share with amateur teams is nothing like competing with three other professional teams. To give an example, a similar situation occurs in Raleigh, NC, where having Duke, UNC, and NC State is essentially like having three pro basketball franchises in one metropolitan area. The Hurricanes were still able to carve out a large niche over here as the one truly professional team in the area. Also, Columbus has Ohio State University, one of the top 5 largest universities in the country, in their backyard, and that market has still shown strong fan support considering the TERRIBLE management of that team. I think the marketing power of having a monopoly on pro sports in a city is hugely overlooked.


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01-26-2013, 05:47 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Hockyluv21 View Post
My personal belief is that the most successful attempts at expansion that are not in major markets like in Seattle, Kansas City or Houston will be in mid-size Canadian or American cities without a professional franchise. Precedents that I personally see as examples include Raleigh (NHL), Oklahoma City (NBA), San Antonio (NBA), Columbus (NHL), Memphis (NBA), San Jose (NHL), and Sacramento (NBA) Cities that I think fit this mold include:

Quebec City, QC
Hamilton, ON
Hartford, CT
Louisville, KY
Omaha, NE
Norfolk, VA
Austin, TX

I could also see a strong case for underrepresented areas of the northern/central US and Canada that could potentially support a regional professional team, one representing a state or province. Teams of this mold I could see in the following:

Saskatchewan (Either in Regina, Saskatoon, or a designated neutral location between the two cities)
Kentucky (Louisville)
Greater Ontario (Represented by a team in Markham or Kitchener)
Nebraska (Omaha)
New Brunswick/Nova Scotia/Newfoundland (Represented in Halifax, perhaps a team representing the entire Acadian/E. Canadian region)
I'm not at all contrary to your thinking. Here's the list I'd come up with:

Portland - NBA
Sacramento - NBA
San Jose - NHL
Columbus - NHL
Virginia Beach
Nashville - NHL, NFL
Providence
Memphis - NBA
Louisville
Oklahoma City - NBA
Richmond
Hartford
Raleigh - NHL
Salt Lake City - NBA
Buffalo - NHL, NFL
Rochester
Tulsa
Bridgeport-New Haven
Albuquerque
Quebec City
Hamilton - CFL

Other than Portland, those not already with an NHL or NBA team could possibly be considered for an NHL team, if they were to at least have an adequate arena (of course an owner is always necessary as well). Portland could probably support both the NBA and the NHL.
I say *possibly, not that I'd actually consider all of those cities. Rochester, for example, would make 4 NY State teams. Though Rochester could possibly support a team as well as Buffalo can, and without there already being an NFL team.

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01-26-2013, 06:27 PM
  #144
Hockyluv21
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I'm not at all contrary to your thinking. Here's the list I'd come up with:

Portland - NBA
Sacramento - NBA
San Jose - NHL
Columbus - NHL
Virginia Beach
Nashville - NHL, NFL
Providence
Memphis - NBA
Louisville
Oklahoma City - NBA
Richmond
Hartford
Raleigh - NHL
Salt Lake City - NBA
Buffalo - NHL, NFL
Rochester
Tulsa
Bridgeport-New Haven
Albuquerque
Quebec City
Hamilton - CFL
Exactly right. Generally the best opportunities come from mid-large size population centers that are either underrepresented or unrepresented, hence giving the league a monopoly on market share in such cities. Hence why, to me, Austin and Birmingham, AL would be better choices for the NHL than saturated pro markets such as Houston and Atlanta that already have NBA/NFL/MLB. Because the NHL lacks a national TV contract the size of the other three leagues, it might actually be smart to take a more regional approach and dig into growing, untapped markets. Look at where most of the successful expansion stories have been in the South, places like Anaheim, San Jose, Tampa, Nashville (shaky initially, but now quite strong), and Raleigh, locales with little to no competition w/ the NBA. Hell, Columbus should be too once they finally end up with a decent to good team.


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01-26-2013, 09:52 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockyluv21 View Post
My personal belief is that the most successful attempts at expansion that are not in major markets like in Seattle, Kansas City or Houston will be in mid-size Canadian or American cities without a professional franchise. Precedents that I personally see as examples include Raleigh (NHL), Oklahoma City (NBA), San Antonio (NBA), Columbus (NHL), Memphis (NBA), San Jose (NHL), and Sacramento (NBA) Cities that I think fit this mold include:

Quebec City, QC
Hamilton, ON
Hartford, CT
Louisville, KY
Omaha, NE
Norfolk, VA
Austin, TX

I could also see a strong case for underrepresented areas of the northern/central US and Canada that could potentially support a regional professional team, one representing a state or province. Teams of this mold I could see in the following:

Saskatchewan (Either in Regina, Saskatoon, or a designated neutral location between the two cities)
Kentucky (Louisville)
Greater Ontario (Represented by a team in Markham or Kitchener)
Nebraska (Omaha)
New Brunswick/Nova Scotia/Newfoundland (Represented in Halifax, perhaps a team representing the entire Acadian/E. Canadian region)

I personally think that a bump-up to 36 teams in fifteen years is plausible, if not likely. But only after Phoenix ownership is resolved, which I think it will be this or next year. Even Atlanta could be feasible for a return in another ten years, people that argued against that market often overlook at how poorly managed that team was by the Spirit group. My prediction for the first two expansion locations, however, is Quebec City and Seattle. Both have upcoming arena deals that make a lot of sense for the league to pursue, and both have a strong existing hockey fanbases that wouldn't take too much investment to develop, especially in the case of Quebec City, who even have a long-storied moniker available for use in the Nordiques.

I personally see an underdog possibility as Austin, TX, and see it as a better potential NHL market than Houston. No existing professional team (in Houston you have the Astros, Texans, and Rockets all competing for market share, likely very limited room for the NHL), an innovative, vibrant, and fast growing city with a large high-income/high-tech/high-education base (hence a large potential financial base for a local ownership group), and a nice rivalry available with the Dallas Stars.
Consider these possibilities, hockeyluv21:

QC is already under discussion;

Hamilton is a non-starter even if Andlauer and the Canadiens leave as has been rumored because of the proximity of both Toronto and Buffalo Essentially blanket that region bwt the Marlies and the Niagra region which leans toward the Sabres


Hartford is like Quebec; highly unlikely sandwiched btwn 2 06 franchises add to that MSG Presence w/ the Whale (lease expiration is a discussion rumor);

Omaha has already been tried w/ the Knights (CGY, now the ABBOTSFORD Heat);

Louisville, despite the KFC Yum! Center has been devestated as a hockey market after the Afr debacle, see also Port Huron, and now the legalities btwn Afr, Freeman, over the Arena there, which the County sued Afr to force payment per agreement in Elmira, (ECHL, an interested party there); Louisville is more College basketball than hockey

Norfolk and Austin are already served as AHL Existing markets, so your theory about Austin makes sense, but Texas Stars are already in place in Cedar Park w/ Dallas affiliation.

Saskatchewan is too much a junior league territory btwn Saskatoon and Regina (tht model has served them well;

Atlantic Canada is a no go outside of the Ice Caps, nor does the GTA if it's now known that Markham is running into political opposition for an arena, much the way Aubut ran into tht back in the mid 90s, they've all become junior league territories.

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01-26-2013, 10:41 PM
  #146
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[QUOTE=CHRDANHUTCH;58420911]Consider these possibilities, hockeyluv21:

Hamilton is a non-starter even if Andlauer and the Canadiens leave as has been rumored because of the proximity of both Toronto and Buffalo Essentially blanket that region bwt the Marlies and the Niagra region which leans toward the Sabres.


That is where you are wrong Hamilton is a gold mine wight now for investment right now with 1.5 billion dollars in building permits issued by Hamilton city council in 2012 & shows no signs of slowing down with a new stadium being built & a posible hard rock cafe casino & resort being bulit in the cities downtown core .

Also starting next month HECFI. will be no more & Copps Coliseum will be runned by Global Spectrum \ Live Nation & as we all know global spectrum owns the flyers & is in Gary Bettman's inner circle also global spectrum has said there main goal in Hamilton is to bring an NHL. to the city .

When it comes to Toronto (MLSE.) & Buffalo Toronto is the only one of the 2 that have the so called teritory rights to Hamilton because Buffalo's territory into southern ontario dose not include Hamilton only the Niagara region thats it & besides an NHL. team in Hamilton will most likely draw from within the city , western ontario , GTA. , Niagara Region & the Kitchener Waterloo area ect. . Also an NHL. team in Hamilton will do little or no damage because about 90% plus of the Sabres fan base is in western new york not ontario & the Sabres do not advertise or sell there mercandise in Hamilton .

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01-27-2013, 01:41 AM
  #147
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Regarding Austin.. Maybe it would work. UT basketball wouldn't be huge competition. They have trouble filling a 16,000 seat on-campus arena. All the attention is on the football program.

I read a week or so ago that the university would like to build a medical school IIRC, at the current location of the Erwin Center(UT basketball arena that I believe is at least 30 years old). The preferable thing for the basketball program would be to build a new smaller on-campus bball arena in the 12,000 seat range. But for concerts and things the city would need to have something large..Right now only the Erwin Center fits the bill. So speculation is that in the next few years the city will try to build a new arena and have UT basketball play there. SO, the point of this is that they may have a suitable arena for NHL hockey in a few years.

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01-27-2013, 02:59 PM
  #148
Hockyluv21
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My Mock Expansion Plan, laid out by map:

2014:

NHL Map.gif

New Teams:

Seattle Metropolitans
Quebec Nordiques

Western Conference:

Northwest:

Vancouver Canucks
Calgary Flames
Edmonton Oilers
Seattle Metropolitans (New Team 2014)

Pacific:

San Jose Sharks
Los Angeles Kings
Anaheim Ducks
Phoenix Coyotes

Heartland:

Colorado Avalanche
Winnipeg Jets
Minnesota Wild
Dallas Stars

Central:

Chicago Blackhawks
Detroit Red Wings
St. Louis Blues
Nashville Predators

Eastern Conference:

St. Lawrence:

Toronto Maple Leafs
Ottawa Senators
Montreal Canadiens
Quebec Nordiques (New Team 2014)

Atlantic:

New Jersey Devils
New York Rangers
New York Islanders
Boston Bruins

Valley:

Washington Capitals
Philadelphia Flyers
Pittsburgh Penguins
Buffalo Sabres

Southeast:

Columbus Blue Jackets
Carolina Hurricanes
Tampa Bay Lightning
Florida Panthers

2023:

NHL Map 2.gif

New Teams:

Kansas City Pioneers
Austin Alternative (An Ode to SXSW)
HC Ontario (Hamilton, ON)
Hartford Whalers

Western Conference:

Pacific:

Vancouver Canucks
Calgary Flames
Edmonton Oilers
Seattle Metropolitans
Colorado Avalanche
San Jose Sharks
Los Angeles Kings
Anaheim Ducks
Phoenix Coyotes

Mountain:

Chicago Blackhawks
Detroit Red Wings
St. Louis Blues
Kansas City Pioneers (New Team 2023)
Nashville Predators
Winnipeg Jets
Minnesota Wild
Dallas Stars
Austin Alternative (New Team 2023)

Eastern Conference:

Northeast:

Toronto Maple Leafs
Ottawa Senators
Montreal Canadiens
Quebec Nordiques
New Jersey Devils
New York Rangers
New York Islanders
Hartford Whalers (New Team 2023)
Boston Bruins

Atlantic:

Washington Capitals
Philadelphia Flyers
Pittsburgh Penguins
Buffalo Sabres
HC Ontario (New Team 2023)
Columbus Blue Jackets
Carolina Hurricanes
Tampa Bay Lightning
Florida Panthers


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01-27-2013, 08:09 PM
  #149
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The NHL really needs to return to a more northern focus. There is a reason the teams in Atlanta and Phoenix didn't work, and it is the same reason that most of the other southern teams are struggling more (financially) than their northern counterparts.

The NHL also should not be afraid to compete with the NBA in 'certain' northern cities (i.e. Milwaukee), as the appeal actually might be bigger for the NHL than the current NBA (ask a Detroit or Minnesota fan if they follow the Wings/Wild or Pistons/T-Wolves more). This is no longer the NBA of Bird/Magic, or even Jordan... which turns away a lot of sport purists... whom the NHL could pick up.

Finally, as ha been mentioned, the NHL should go after cities like Quebec and Hamilton that cleary want not just a team, but an NHL team. Think about it, when you hear stories of Quebec or Hamilton trying to get a pro sports team, it is to get an NHL team. When you hear the same stories about Kansas City (or previously Oklahoma City or Memphis) trying to get a pro team, they are trying to get an NBA team. That should tell you what the fans want.

So my vote would be: Quebec, Hamilton, Milwaukee, and Seattle.

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01-27-2013, 08:53 PM
  #150
candyman82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atticus View Post
The NHL really needs to return to a more northern focus. There is a reason the teams in Atlanta and Phoenix didn't work, and it is the same reason that most of the other southern teams are struggling more (financially) than their northern counterparts.

The NHL also should not be afraid to compete with the NBA in 'certain' northern cities (i.e. Milwaukee), as the appeal actually might be bigger for the NHL than the current NBA (ask a Detroit or Minnesota fan if they follow the Wings/Wild or Pistons/T-Wolves more). This is no longer the NBA of Bird/Magic, or even Jordan... which turns away a lot of sport purists... whom the NHL could pick up.

Finally, as ha been mentioned, the NHL should go after cities like Quebec and Hamilton that cleary want not just a team, but an NHL team. Think about it, when you hear stories of Quebec or Hamilton trying to get a pro sports team, it is to get an NHL team. When you hear the same stories about Kansas City (or previously Oklahoma City or Memphis) trying to get a pro team, they are trying to get an NBA team. That should tell you what the fans want.

So my vote would be: Quebec, Hamilton, Milwaukee, and Seattle.
1. Atlanta failed due to unbelievably horrible ownership.

2. Phoenix hasn't failed, last time I checked they're still in Arizona. If they move we can call it a failure, but they aren't there yet.

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