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The Luongo Thread: Sympathy For The Devil

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01-17-2013, 07:14 PM
  #801
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01-17-2013, 07:15 PM
  #802
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Kadri put up a point per game in the ahl this year. He did that last year too. And the year before.

That is nice, but the real concern I have when I watch Kadri play is that he looks small and he looks weak.


On the play where he scored his first ahl goal this season, He got manhandled at the blueline, just thrown outside the line by someone. Then he picked up a pass and made a nice shot for a goal. It was a nice shot - but is he going to be able to do that at the NHL level? Where there is much better coverage and guys are much faster?

In fact, even if he is able to do that at the NHL level..... how different is he from Mason Raymond? Raymond has a nice shot, is smooth, a good skater, good puckhandler - and Mason is much faster than Kadri.

And most fans want Mason out of town! - This is what we want to trade Luongo for?

I've seen Kadri fall down quite a bit, and get thrown around a bunch, similar to Raymond. They are similar sizes. And Kadri doesn't seem to have the work ethic or drive that Mason Raymond does.

So is this really the guy we want?

Furthermore, Kadri only has 8 goals this year - he is not a prolific goalscorer - and he got an awful lot of his points on the powerplay.

I don't see Kadri's abilities carrying over to the NHL level... whether I look at it from the viewpoint of his skills and abilities, or from a statistical analysis of how he scored his points.



I would love someone to show me why I am wrong. But as far as I can see... Kadri is not too impressive.
He's Robbie Schrempf for me.

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01-17-2013, 07:23 PM
  #803
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That is one awesome video.

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01-17-2013, 07:23 PM
  #804
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Wow. That was terrible.

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01-17-2013, 07:54 PM
  #805
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01-17-2013, 07:59 PM
  #806
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I'm caught half way between thinking it was brilliant and terrible. Bravo in posting it here.

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01-17-2013, 08:03 PM
  #807
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Classic.

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01-17-2013, 08:07 PM
  #808
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They might be reluctant to move Bozak AND Kadri. Losing Bozak hirts their chances of making the playoffs and Kadri is a boom or bust prospect that could come back to bite them.

If I was Nonis I would take a wait and see approach and sell off assets if they get off to a poor start, with the intention of drafting in the top 5. You only have to suffer through half as many disappointing games and the top end of the 1st rd is outstanding. New GM should feel comfortable with that scenario as well, as they're not going to fire him at the end of the year.

Florida or bust.


They're not going to fire him, but Anselmi would have to take a very long look at what he put in place when the record was a reason to fire Burke. One reason of many. The bullseye is directly on Nonis. And yes, he can skirt by with tanking this year, he has that leeway. However, that rope begins to tighten the more losing you are a part of. What's the assurance he turns things around next year? Or the year after that?


Forgoing Luongo could be the one non-move that eventually costs Nonis his job. People are seeing this now, because 2 to 3 years away is too far into the future to project. But the _odds_ are that no other goalie of his calibre comes on the market any time soon. This could be something he eventually ends up regretting.


He has to win in the near future. Maybe not this year, but then that just puts more pressure on him next year.

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01-17-2013, 08:10 PM
  #809
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They're not going to fire him, but Anselmi would have to take a very long look at what he put in place when the record was a reason to fire Burke. One reason of many. The bullseye is directly on Nonis. And yes, he can skirt by with tanking this year, he has that leeway. However, that rope begins to tighten the more losing you are a part of. What's the assurance he turns things around next year? Or the year after that?


Forgoing Luongo could be the one non-move that eventually costs Nonis his job. People are seeing this now, because 2 to 3 years away is too far into the future to project. But the _odds_ are that no other goalie of his calibre comes on the market any time soon. This could be something he eventually ends up regretting.


He has to win in the near future. Maybe not this year, but then that just puts more pressure on him next year.
Especially when that'll be the year Kessel is in the final year of his contract. Probably a stronger chance of him re-signing if he sees the team making real progess (eg., tanking isn't likely to cause to want to stick around).

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01-17-2013, 08:18 PM
  #810
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Especially when that'll be the year Kessel is in the final year of his contract. Probably a stronger chance of him re-signing if he sees the team making real progess (eg., tanking isn't likely to cause to want to stick around).


Yes, and follow that along... Say Nonis tanks this year, drafts his 1C, goes into 2014 and his team isn't doing well in the 1st half, does he trade Kessel? Can he afford to let him walk at that point?


If he is forced to make a decision, and does trade Kessel, he's sunk IMO. If Kessel doesn't re-sign, he's sunk. There's just too much to try and build when you lose a premier sniper like that. So while there's little pressure on Nonis to win now, he definitely has to think of the long-term repercussions if he takes this team on a youth movement and continues to tank.


I would not want to be in his position right now.

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01-17-2013, 08:39 PM
  #811
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post

If he is forced to make a decision, and does trade Kessel, he's sunk IMO.
I see things a little differently. IMO trading Kessel would be an excellent move if he could bring in a young, stud centre like Matt Duchene - or even someone younger. Don't think you stop there either. I would move Phaneuf too if a team like Philly offered some blue-chip youth. Lupul as well would be dealt at the deadline this season to a team desperate for offense. Move those 3 key players, draft in the top 5 and the odds of winning a cup in the next decade go up substantially IMO.

The alternative is, bring in a 33 year old goalie that isn't good enough to make you a contender but one that hurts your chances of drafting a future star. With how the Leafs are built, not a fan of that play. There just isn't the strength up the middle of the ice to win anything IMO and the core is built around a bunch of guys with questionable character. Not a fan of the makeup of that organization whatsoever...

Strip it right down to nothing. Do what Burke should have done 5 years ago.

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01-17-2013, 08:45 PM
  #812
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Yes, and follow that along... Say Nonis tanks this year, drafts his 1C, goes into 2014 and his team isn't doing well in the 1st half, does he trade Kessel? Can he afford to let him walk at that point?


If he is forced to make a decision, and does trade Kessel, he's sunk IMO. If Kessel doesn't re-sign, he's sunk. There's just too much to try and build when you lose a premier sniper like that. So while there's little pressure on Nonis to win now, he definitely has to think of the long-term repercussions if he takes this team on a youth movement and continues to tank.


I would not want to be in his position right now.
The new rules regarding contract length make it very advantageous for Kessel to sign a big 8 year deal at the beginning of next season. That gives him two extra years of protection against injury on what is likely the biggest contract of his career. If the Leafs don't really **** it up I expect him to re-sign.

Nonis is another animal. I could easily see him being out of that job by the draft. He may as well have the interim tag imo. He needs to make something happen to keep that job... I'm not sure he has the balls to pull it off though.

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01-17-2013, 08:48 PM
  #813
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
I see things a little differently. IMO trading Kessel would be an excellent move if he could bring in a young, stud centre like Matt Duchene - or even someone younger. Don't think you stop there either. I would move Phaneuf too if a team like Philly offered some blue-chip youth. Lupul as well would be dealt at the deadline this season to a team desperate for offense. Move those 3 key players, draft in the top 5 and the odds of winning a cup in the next decade go up substantially IMO.

The alternative is, bring in a 33 year old goalie that isn't good enough to make you a contender but one that hurts your chances of drafting a future star. With how the Leafs are built, not a fan of that play. There just isn't the strength up the middle of the ice to win anything IMO and the core is built around a bunch of guys with questionable character. Not a fan of the makeup of that organization whatsoever...

Strip it right down to nothing. Do what Burke should have done 5 years ago.


You are looking at things as a _fan_. TOR is a franchise that is headed in a direction chosen by their former GM. Their current GM has explicitly stated that he will _continue_ in that direction. Not in the same way, but the same destination. So how does one equate what he has said to stripping TOR down to the struts?


For what it's worth, I agree with you, as a fan. TOR should blow it up. However, the GMs that have worked their have chosen a path. They are in the middle of that path right now, and to go and hit rock bottom makes no sense to that plan, and would all but seal Nonis's fate as he is not continuing on, like he said, but instead blowing it up.


I think we've had this discussion before. Feels like Deja Vu. Fans can look at it from a removed perspective, but all the evidence in TOR runs contrary to that perspective.

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01-17-2013, 08:52 PM
  #814
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The new rules regarding contract length make it very advantageous for Kessel to sign a big 8 year deal at the beginning of next season. That gives him two extra years of protection against injury on what is likely the biggest contract of his career. If the Leafs don't really **** it up I expect him to re-sign.

Nonis is another animal. I could easily see him being out of that job by the draft. He may as well have the interim tag imo. He needs to make something happen to keep that job... I'm not sure he has the balls to pull it off though.


A lot of losing will sour any player. But I do agree, Kessel should sign for big money eventually.


We know the score with Nonis. If he isn't gifted Luongo or any other asset, he will stand pat. It's his MO. Yes, I agree that he could find his way out of TOR sooner rather than later. There's no way that they allow him to strip down the franchise and tank. Not a chance.

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01-17-2013, 08:55 PM
  #815
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I think we've had this discussion before. Feels like Deja Vu. Fans can look at it from a removed perspective, but all the evidence in TOR runs contrary to that perspective.
I wouldn't say that at all. Nonis is apparently refusing to part with any youth to bring in an all-star goalie that would instantly legitimize that club and he just moved 2 veteran centremen for nothing. Connolly and Lombardi are poor value at their contracts but that shouldn't be a concern for Nonis unless he plans on making other moves to utilize that cap space. It remains to be seen if he'll do that - I have my doubts.

What evidence do you see that would lead you to believe Nonis is pushing hard for the playoffs?

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01-17-2013, 09:00 PM
  #816
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Was mostly meh until the very end: "Toronto Maple Leafs... the D is Terrible!"


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01-17-2013, 09:03 PM
  #817
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I wouldn't say that at all. Nonis is apparently refusing to part with any youth to bring in an all-star goalie that would instantly legitimize that club and he just moved 2 veteran centremen for nothing. Connolly and Lombardi are poor value at their contracts but that shouldn't be a concern for Nonis unless he plans on making other moves to utilize that cap space. It remains to be seen if he'll do that - I have my doubts.

What evidence do you see that would lead you to believe Nonis is pushing hard for the playoffs?


The fact that his boss got fired for having missed the playoffs for 4 straight years.


Why keep on the assistant GM to a losing regime unless that GM can sell the vision of continuing to build towards the playoffs? They wouldn't. Nonis is expected to win.


The veteran Cs they let go were being pushed off the roster.




Nonis is refusing to part with youth because he doesn't do deals where prime youth is being sent the other way. The best I've seen Nonis deal, is a 2nd rounder. He refused to deal Edler and Kesler. Even in the Luongo deal, he didn't deal a 1st. But then with that strict retention of high picks/prospects, he iced a losing team twice in 3 years. You say he's refusing to deal youth, I say he's just being Nonis.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 01-17-2013 at 09:25 PM.
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01-17-2013, 09:04 PM
  #818
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Who would trade Duchene for an expiring contract?

Can't think anyone on their right mind.

They'd get a Kovalchuk type deal, and we see how that helped Atlanta.

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01-17-2013, 09:11 PM
  #819
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A lot of losing will sour any player. But I do agree, Kessel should sign for big money eventually.


We know the score with Nonis. If he isn't gifted Luongo or any other asset, he will stand pat. It's his MO. Yes, I agree that he could find his way out of TOR sooner rather than later. There's no way that they allow him to strip down the franchise and tank. Not a chance.
No, but they'll let him trade for Lu if the price is right and that might buy him some time. I actually think Toronto has a lot of nice pieces. If they could add a #1 centre and #1 goalie without selling the farm they'd have a really good team. Lu gets them half way there.

The talk of the Leafs tanking is funny. You know that they are owned by two cable providers that bought them for content... right? They want a competitive team that people want to watch.

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01-17-2013, 09:28 PM
  #820
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No, but they'll let him trade for Lu if the price is right and that might buy him some time. I actually think Toronto has a lot of nice pieces. If they could add a #1 centre and #1 goalie without selling the farm they'd have a really good team. Lu gets them half way there.

The talk of the Leafs tanking is funny. You know that they are owned by two cable providers that bought them for content... right? They want a competitive team that people want to watch.

They won't tank. Nonis has pressure on him, he just saw his boss get fired. What person goes into a situation like that and think they're home free? Certainly not me. If anything, the pressure just doubled as I'm expected to do my boss's job better than he did. Game on.

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01-17-2013, 09:55 PM
  #821
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In fact, even if he is able to do that at the NHL level..... how different is he from Mason Raymond?
I take this back Kadri can never hope to be anything like Raymond

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01-17-2013, 10:37 PM
  #822
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I take this back Kadri can never hope to be anything like Raymond
Kesler was holding back Raymond.

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01-17-2013, 10:37 PM
  #823
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They won't tank. Nonis has pressure on him, he just saw his boss get fired. What person goes into a situation like that and think they're home free? Certainly not me. If anything, the pressure just doubled as I'm expected to do my boss's job better than he did. Game on.
This is what amuses me with Leaf fans advocating to let the ship sink. It just will not happen. If Toronto starts strong but begins to fall off the same cliff, they will deal for Luongo. I'm absolutely convinced of that. What the actual deal ends up being is another story.

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01-17-2013, 10:38 PM
  #824
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Nonis is refusing to part with youth because he doesn't do deals where prime youth is being sent the other way.
How can you be 'pushing hard for the playoffs' without acquiring any impact players at the cost of prime youth?

Like you said, Nonis has a history of retaining all his top young assets, unlike Brian Burke. Couldn't that be why he was hired, and subsequently why Burke was fired?

Looks like Anselmi just put an extremely patient, conservative GM into the fold to build longterm. I have yet to see any signs pointing towards Nonis 'pushing hard for the playoffs'. So far, it's been the opposite.

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01-17-2013, 10:41 PM
  #825
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
They won't tank. Nonis has pressure on him, he just saw his boss get fired. What person goes into a situation like that and think they're home free? Certainly not me. If anything, the pressure just doubled as I'm expected to do my boss's job better than he did. Game on.
I just saw my boss get fired for refusing to re-build properly. I step in and do what my boss should have done in the 1st place.

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