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In Soviet Russia, Ryan O'Reilly signs you.

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01-20-2013, 03:51 PM
  #976
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Originally Posted by volaju View Post
Yeah, O'Reilly sure does look like a greedy tyrant when we start inserting pictures of Horcoff and saying he's after a $5.5M+ paycheck, but where did this number even come from? When you strip an hyperbolic argument of hyperbole, there isn't much substance left.

There is clearly a huge difference between $3.5M and $5.5M, and the fact of the matter is, we don't know what O'Reilly is asking for. All we know is what has been offered: $3.5M. And I, like you, don't think it's unreasonable for O'Reilly to get paid more than that.
This is the most laughable thing I've heard in a long time. The same source that said the Avs were offering $3.5M was the one that said O'Reilly wanted $5M. How are you going to discount one without the other?

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01-20-2013, 03:54 PM
  #977
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Originally Posted by volaju View Post
Yeah, O'Reilly sure does look like a greedy tyrant when we start inserting pictures of Horcoff and saying he's after a $5.5M+ paycheck, but where did this number even come from? When you strip an hyperbolic argument of hyperbole, there isn't much substance left.

There is clearly a huge difference between $3.5M and $5.5M, and the fact of the matter is, we don't know what O'Reilly is asking for. All we know is what has been offered: $3.5M. And I, like you, don't think it's unreasonable for O'Reilly to get paid more than that.
What does "greedy tyrant" have to do with it? I have no reason to think Horcoff or O'Reilly are greedy at all. It's all about big long term contracts having significantly more risk attached to them than short term contracts has and if you sign one, you better know what you are buying.

Horcoff had proven much more offensively than O'Reilly has and had done it for a few years. That's why he got the big money. His ability to provide offense in the long run got overrated by the team and that's why it is a bad contract. In the same way Stastny's ability to provide offense in the long run got a bit overrated by Avs and that's why he has been overpaid. Avs would have been much better off with Stastny on a bridge contract.

We don't know what kind of offensive capacity O'Reilly has. Offering him a two year deal and providing him with every chance to prove what he can do isn't unfair. And being paid $3.5M/year certainly isn't unfair.

Avs aren't trying to screw O'Reilly over here. They have every reason to give him a chance to succeed and earn a big long term contract.

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01-20-2013, 03:57 PM
  #978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volaju View Post
Yeah, O'Reilly sure does look like a greedy tyrant when we start inserting pictures of Horcoff and saying he's after a $5.5M+ paycheck, but where did this number even come from? When you strip an hyperbolic argument of hyperbole, there isn't much substance left.

There is clearly a huge difference between $3.5M and $5.5M, and the fact of the matter is, we don't know what O'Reilly is asking for. All we know is what has been offered: $3.5M. And I, like you, don't think it's unreasonable for O'Reilly to get paid more than that.
Obviously nobody knows for sure but everyone is going by the information that's been provided by several sources.

Avs offered - 2 years @ $3.5M
Avs offered - 5 years @ $3.4M

O'Reilly wants $5M+ per season

This is the information that's being provided by the media.

What WILL end up happening:

- RoR signs a 3 year - $12-$14M contract ($4-$4.5M per)

Avs then trade him to another team in this kind of deal:

Avs get:
Top pairing d-man
Real 3rd line center
[maybe a pick]

X-Team gets:
RoR (2nd line center)
Top-4 D-man
[maybe a pick]

Essentially, the EJ deal all over again, except that RoR is a center and not a winger.

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Old
01-20-2013, 03:57 PM
  #979
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Why are posts that aren't in any way insulting to one another being deleted? Are we all supposed to have the same opinion? I didn't see any insults directed towards me, or any from me? Just a heated debate. What is happening to this board?

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Old
01-20-2013, 03:58 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
They all had extremely important players miss significant amounts of time and still met expectations. It doesn't matter that the talent, depth, and payroll are different, because expectations increase to match that.

I think the Avs are more than capable of winning games and making the playoffs without any one player.
And those "expectations" lowered suddenly when those key players were out. Unless you think fans of those teams honestly expected to win the Cup without those players.

IMO, the teams in the division have either made improvements (Minnesota) or more or less held the course, while IMO the Avs took a step back. Even with the additions of Parenteau and Zanon I don't believe this is a vastly better team than the one that ended the '11-12 season.

Again, we will see. But in an ideal world this argument just becomes moot because O'Reilly gets signed.

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01-20-2013, 03:59 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Why are posts that aren't in any way insulting to one another being deleted? Are we all supposed to have the same opinion? What is happening to this board?
What? Posts are getting deleted?

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01-20-2013, 04:00 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Again, those teams have a lot more talent and larger payrolls. The Avs don't have either of these luxuries. Those other teams have elite talent all over the roster, they can all afford to lose that top player and still be okay. Don't tell me you're seriously comparing Chicago, Vancouver, Washington, and Pittsburgh's situations with the Avs. All of those teams have spent to the cap or come very close. The Avs have only just spent past the cap floor this offseason.

Hell, you could even see the Avs somehow step up and make up for the absence of Forsberg during their Cup run. But again, the talent, depth, and payroll on that squad as opposed to the youth and meager payroll of this Avs team is worlds apart.

And Savard was never, ever Boston's best player while he was there.

If I'm wrong in predicting doom and gloom for the Avs without O'Reilly, fine. I'd be thrilled if I were proven wrong. But I think O'Reilly is too important for the Avs for them to be taken seriously without a player who makes an impact for the team in all situations.
He was there far and away their best offensive player. Your point still stands but I just don't think the avs playoff hopes rests on one player, not named varly or EJ. Will it be an uphill battle without Ryan? Yes, of course but I still think the avs can make it.

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01-20-2013, 04:02 PM
  #983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Why are posts that aren't in any way insulting to one another being deleted? Are we all supposed to have the same opinion? I didn't see any insults directed towards me, or any from me? Just a heated debate. What is happening to this board?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
What? Posts are getting deleted?
I believe my post was edited by a mod because I used a profanity towards the league and the teams handing out long-term contracts to players coming off ELCs. They usually don't care about that stuff though. I didn't insult another poster.

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01-20-2013, 04:02 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
What? Posts are getting deleted?
Yea, someone had a post above mine on this page when I first posted it (though I didn't read it) and I had one replying to you on the last page that wasn't insulting in any way. Just saying that the implication of O'Reilly taking $3.5M would be an extra discounted hometown discount is ridiculous, and cited the Giroux and Krecji examples of $3.5-4M being what he's worth. Maybe others were deleted too I don't know. Seems totally unnecessary.

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Old
01-20-2013, 04:11 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Someone go buy O'Reilly a drink and bring him back to Colorado already! Sheesh.
Send him some Rocky Mountain Oysters --- remind him of what he's missing!


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01-20-2013, 04:11 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Yea, someone had a post above mine on this page when I first posted it (though I didn't read it) and I had one replying to you on the last page that wasn't insulting in any way. Just saying that the implication of O'Reilly taking $3.5M would be an extra discounted hometown discount is ridiculous, and cited the Giroux and Krecji examples of $3.5-4M being what he's worth. Maybe others too I don't know.
To be fair, for every one of those examples, RoR can just point to an Evander Kane type deal that proves it the other way.

In the end, it DOESN'T MATTER what any of us think. It doesn't matter what any of us think he's worth or not worth. As we've seen in the past, players that have done this have always been shipped out. I don't remember even ONE holdout that we've kept long term. Ozo held out in 1999 and was shipped out at the draft in 2000. Same with Drury, he was dealt in short order after holding out.

Start thinking about the return instead of this guy playing long-term with this team, he's history.

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01-20-2013, 04:13 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
To be fair, for every one of those examples, RoR can just point to an Evander Kane type deal that proves it the other way.

In the end, it DOESN'T MATTER what any of us think. It doesn't matter what any of us think he's worth or not worth. As we've seen in the past, players that have done this have always been shipped out. I don't remember even ONE holdout that we've kept long term. Ozo held out in 1999 and was shipped out at the draft in 2000. Same with Drury, he was dealt in short order after holding out.

Start thinking about the return instead of this guy playing long-term with this team, he's history.
You forgot the picture of the Rock in this post...

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01-20-2013, 04:14 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Ronaldo View Post
He was there far and away their best offensive player. Your point still stands but I just don't think the avs playoff hopes rests on one player, not named varly or EJ. Will it be an uphill battle without Ryan? Yes, of course but I still think the avs can make it.
I will agree the Bruins managed to put together some smart decision-making and had some plain dumb luck fall into their lap by being able to actually IMPROVE after losing their top two scoring threats. They got Seguin, and Krejci became a decent replacement for Savard. IMO Chara and Thomas are/were Boston's best players though.

Can the Avs make the postseason without O'Reilly? IMO no. The Avs don't have the discipline to stay out of the box, and don't have the personnel to properly kill all the penalties that undisciplined play will invariably yield. But that's my humble opinion...obviously we're expecting vast improvement from Duchene and a solid sophomore outing from Landeskog. If those two things don't happen, this team's headed for the league cellar, O'Reilly or no O'Reilly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Yea, someone had a post above mine on this page when I first posted it (though I didn't read it) and I had one replying to you on the last page that wasn't insulting in any way. Just saying that the implication of O'Reilly taking $3.5M would be an extra discounted hometown discount is ridiculous, and cited the Giroux and Krecji examples of $3.5-4M being what he's worth. Maybe others were deleted too I don't know. Seems totally unnecessary.
Agreed. I don't think this discussion is getting out of hand at all. I think we should be allowed to get into contentious arguments so long as we don't let it devolve into name-calling and insults. And I think it's ridiculous to have something edited that directs an expletive toward the NHL following the freakin' lockout. Are the mods here on the league payroll?

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01-20-2013, 04:16 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
I believe my post was edited by a mod because I used a profanity towards the league and the teams handing out long-term contracts to players coming off ELCs. They usually don't care about that stuff though. I didn't insult another poster.
I could be wrong, because I don't notice posters names a lot of times when I'm quoting them, but I don't think I quoted your post. I dont' know what kind of profanity you used, but if I'm wrong and I did quote you, is it possible that we can just edit out the profanity instead of deleting the whole post and the whole post of anyone that quoted it? Takes about .8 seconds to highlight a word or sentence and replace it with asterisks.

I'm just becoming overly sensitive to these types of things here for reasons I won't get into.

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01-20-2013, 04:20 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
To be fair, for every one of those examples, RoR can just point to an Evander Kane type deal that proves it the other way.

In the end, it DOESN'T MATTER what any of us think. It doesn't matter what any of us think he's worth or not worth. As we've seen in the past, players that have done this have always been shipped out. I don't remember even ONE holdout that we've kept long term. Ozo held out in 1999 and was shipped out at the draft in 2000. Same with Drury, he was dealt in short order after holding out.

Start thinking about the return instead of this guy playing long-term with this team, he's history.
We'll see what happens. It's going to be a test of the maturity of this organization and willingness to do what it takes to win.

If Avs feel they have to trade him because he dared to be a tough negotiator, it's really bad news for the future. O'Reilly is the type of player you win championships with.

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01-20-2013, 04:21 PM
  #991
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IF ROR wants a term like 5 or 6 years, and Sherman is hung up on not giving him any more per year than Duchene on principal, I don't agree with that limitation. I think it would be wise to raise the offer from $17M over 5 years, up to $18 or 19M (i.e. 3.8M/yr). If it would close the deal, I 'd go to $24M / 6 years (4/yr).

He'll likely only be getting more than Duchene for just 2 years. No he did NOT earn more than Duchene so far based on only points. But on doing what he was asked and more in the role he was given, and his full contributions to the team, I think it would be OK to give him a slightly more than Duchene, IF it's tied to a longer term deal where he is locked in at that lower price for a longer time.

If ROR is asking for $5M /yr he needs to come down a LOT. $4M per is really pushing the limit of what you can justify after only 3 years, in my opinion.

For me, hopefully Sherman will come up a little in his offer, and ROR will come down a lot on his demands.

Unfortunately I believe that should have already happened a week or two ago at the latest, so I don't hold high hopes for that happening now, since both will be hesitant to move now after a game or two, out of fear of appearing weak and emboldening the other side to not move at all.

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01-20-2013, 04:27 PM
  #992
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I would have no problem with a long contract (five years for $4M/year or eight years for $4.25M-4.5M/year) for O'Reilly as long as both the team and player assume some of the risk of we not knowing exactly what kind of offense he will provide in the future. He might be a 45-50p guy or he might be a 65p guy. At a reasonable salary, a long term deal would be great.

If O'Reilly insists on being paid as a sure thing offensively ($5M/year) then I think Avs are better off asking for a a bridge contract.

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01-20-2013, 04:27 PM
  #993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
To be fair, for every one of those examples, RoR can just point to an Evander Kane type deal that proves it the other way.

In the end, it DOESN'T MATTER what any of us think. It doesn't matter what any of us think he's worth or not worth. As we've seen in the past, players that have done this have always been shipped out. I don't remember even ONE holdout that we've kept long term. Ozo held out in 1999 and was shipped out at the draft in 2000. Same with Drury, he was dealt in short order after holding out.

Start thinking about the return instead of this guy playing long-term with this team, he's history.
Well, I agree he's probably history, but I think you're incorrect on this for a couple reasons. Firstly, I think there's way way way more contractual examples of RFA's that are in the Avs favor, than the occasional one where a team like Winnipeg took a gamble long term on a guy like Kane.

Secondly, I don't think O'Reilly and Kane is an exact comparison. It's close because O'Reilly brings a lot to the table that Kane does not, but Kane had a better second and third season statistically than O'Reilly. O'Reilly is saying he can be an offensive player when asking for $5M, and Kane has a little more evidence of him being this on his side.

They both put up 26 points as rookies, but Kane put up 19 goals and 43 points in his second season, compared to O'Reilly's 13 goals and 26 points. He also put up 30 goals and 57 points to Ryan's 18 goals and 55 points last year. The 30 goals brings an added value usually.

Plus I think think being the 4th overall pick with a lot of promise, still plays into 2nd contracts a little bit.

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01-20-2013, 04:29 PM
  #994
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I would have no problem with a long contract (five years for $4M/year or eight years for $4.25M-4.5M/year) for O'Reilly as long as both the team and player assume some of the risk of we not knowing exactly what kind of offense he will provide in the future. He might be a 45-50p guy or he might be a 65p guy. At a reasonable salary, a long term deal would be great.

If O'Reilly insists on being paid as a sure thing offensively ($5M/year) then I think Avs are better off asking for a a bridge contract.
I agree with everything in this post.

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01-20-2013, 04:32 PM
  #995
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
We'll see what happens. It's going to be a test of the maturity of this organization and willingness to do what it takes to win.

If Avs feel they have to trade him because he dared to be a tough negotiator, it's really bad news for the future. O'Reilly is the type of player you win championships with.
Agreed. That'd be petty and stupid on their parts.

Even given past precedent, I don't think O'Reilly is necessarily history. It will depend on if he gets signed and then it will depend on how well he plays and how well he carries himself afterwards.

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01-20-2013, 04:35 PM
  #996
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Agreed. That'd be petty and stupid on their parts.

Even given past precedent, I don't think O'Reilly is necessarily history. It will depend on if he gets signed and then it will depend on how well he plays and how well he carries himself afterwards.
I hope you're right. There seems to be a lot of "this is the way we do things" around the Avs org. Of course, they've also recently shown willingness to break tradition (acquiring a Russian risk in Varlamov).

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01-20-2013, 04:38 PM
  #997
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Closed ,
Almost at 1000 ,New Thread : http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1#post57956761

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