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Old
01-31-2013, 09:16 PM
  #276
Zip15
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
ROR isn't nearly in the category of any of those players, except for Bolland, who is a third line center. Let the hyperbole and overrating continue.
Mike Richards didn't score 55 pts in his 20-21 yr old season. I'm guessing you wouldn't have traded Roy or Connolly for Richards in 2006. Offensive abilities and all that.

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01-31-2013, 09:18 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Mike Richards didn't score 55 pts in his 20-21 yr old season. I'm guessing you wouldn't have traded Roy or Connolly for Richards in 2006. Offensive abilities and all that.
I wanted to trade Roy for Kesler back in the day
and it got the same reaction...

every single GM in hockey would take O'reilly over Ennis

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Old
01-31-2013, 09:23 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by kenfury View Post
Well, let us look 2 years ahead on the D.

McNabb becomes Regehr
Pysyk become Leopold
Rej stays Rej
Myers stays Myers
JGL and McCabe are on the cusp

I wonder if Ennis, Brennan + would get it done, otherwise the Development of the Blue line needs to be accelerated either through prospects or FA.
Except I don't think those are good/realistic projections. McNabb has physicality and some offensive skill. I see him as a very poor man's Phaneuf. He certainly won't replace Regehr, who, while less than useless offensively, is a defensive workhorse and a smart player.

If Pysyk becomes Leopold, boy will I be disappointed. Pysyk's got fantastic IQ, particularly in his own end, as well as terrific skating. My hope for him is to become an Alzner-type player. Or: the guy every team wants complementing their top offensive D. But, again, he may take a while to get there.

JGL...Eh, I'm very uncertain that he has an NHL future. The kid has talent, but he's definitely a project and I wouldn't look for him to be a top 6 defender in the organization for quite some time, if ever.

McCabe is still a bit of a wildcard to me. I could see him topping out as a solid #5 guy with little offensive upside, or as a solid defensive #2 who can chip in ~30 points. We'll see.

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01-31-2013, 09:29 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
And the fact that he's 5x the defensive player that Ennis is, at the most important forward position. There's a reason why the teams that have won Cups have guys like M. Richards, Bergeron, Bolland, Toews, J. Staal, Datsyuk/Zetterberg. You need centers who can check the other teams' elite players and do well against them. That's ROR. And he's only 21. How many 5'8'' waterbugs have been the 1C or 2C for Cup-winners in the last decade? Any?

Ennis has great offensive abilities, even if he's a bit inconsistent. But he doesn't play the 200-foot game O'Reilly does, and that's why O'Reilly is the better all-around player.
I would argue that there was no way that LA would have won the cup without Richards and Brown. Kopitar is a great player who puts up points but he will not lead you to the promised land. The players listed above are the guys you want to hoard. The Drury/Peca type of guy. The one who will put the team on his back and through force of will alone win a series when it matters. Look at all of the teams that have made a deep run and they all had a few of those guys.

LA - Richards, Brown
Bruins Grit up and down but I'll start with Lucic, Chara and Marchand
Blackhawks - Towes, Keith.

I'd swap Ennis for RoR for the same reason Roy for Ott was a good move. It is what wins Cups.

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01-31-2013, 09:30 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Except I don't think those are good/realistic projections. McNabb has physicality and some offensive skill. I see him as a very poor man's Phaneuf. He certainly won't replace Regehr, who, while less than useless offensively, is a defensive workhorse and a smart player.

If Pysyk becomes Leopold, boy will I be disappointed. Pysyk's got fantastic IQ, particularly in his own end, as well as terrific skating. My hope for him is to become an Alzner-type player. Or: the guy every team wants complementing their top offensive D. But, again, he may take a while to get there.

JGL...Eh, I'm very uncertain that he has an NHL future. The kid has talent, but he's definitely a project and I wouldn't look for him to be a top 6 defender in the organization for quite some time, if ever.

McCabe is still a bit of a wildcard to me. I could see him topping out as a solid #5 guy with little offensive upside, or as a solid defensive #2 who can chip in ~30 points. We'll see.
I was not saying one for one comparisons but rather roster slots. Sorry for the confusion.

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01-31-2013, 09:36 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Mike Richards didn't score 55 pts in his 20-21 yr old season. I'm guessing you wouldn't have traded Roy or Connolly for Richards in 2006. Offensive abilities and all that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I wanted to trade Roy for Kesler back in the day
and it got the same reaction...

every single GM in hockey would take O'reilly over Ennis
It honestly baffles me that some people cant see anything past goals/assists and mad dangle skills. So much more goes into being a great hockey player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
ROR isn't nearly in the category of any of those players, except for Bolland, who is a third line center. Let the hyperbole and overrating continue.
Astonishing... :joshjull:

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Old
01-31-2013, 09:39 PM
  #282
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If RoR IS available (which, he isn't)

You trade Ennis for him. He's 21. he average 20 minutes a night, played in every situation for Colorado. I love Ennis. But O'Reilly is the kind of player you need to win championships. he's who we hope Zemgus will be in 3 years.

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01-31-2013, 09:39 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by SECRET SQUIRREL View Post
It honestly baffles me that some people cant see anything past goals/assists and mad dangle skills. So much more goes into being a great hockey player.


Astonishing... :joshjull:
yea... i dont know why i constantly feel the need to respond to those who clearly know nothing

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01-31-2013, 09:54 PM
  #284
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So do we strike while the irons hot? Do we actively, aggressively try moving Thomas Vanek soon? A GM may very well give a little more than he's worth at this point. Regier has pulled a few beauty trades in recent years. Maybe he can "steal a cop car" again

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01-31-2013, 10:01 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
So do we strike while the irons hot? Do we actively, aggressively try moving Thomas Vanek soon? A GM may very well give a little more than he's worth at this point. Regier has pulled a few beauty trades in recent years. Maybe he can "steal a cop car" again
I don't think Regier has the balls that Muckler had (mogilny trade)

come to think of it... what trades has regier made that didn't involve either prospects, ELC contracts, or pending UFAs ?

trading a veteran with another year left on his contract... not really regier's style, right?

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Old
01-31-2013, 11:32 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
So do we strike while the irons hot? Do we actively, aggressively try moving Thomas Vanek soon? A GM may very well give a little more than he's worth at this point. Regier has pulled a few beauty trades in recent years. Maybe he can "steal a cop car" again
Why on earth would we do this?

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Old
01-31-2013, 11:48 PM
  #287
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I wouldn't trade Vanek unless we went into full rebuild and we all know that's not gonna happen. Actually, starting this summer we should be talking extension with him. What do you think we are looking at for term and $$ wise?

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01-31-2013, 11:58 PM
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Why on earth would we do this?
To receieve more than vanek is worth?

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02-01-2013, 12:00 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by SECRET SQUIRREL View Post
I wouldn't trade Vanek unless we went into full rebuild and we all know that's not gonna happen. Actually, starting this summer we should be talking extension with him. What do you think we are looking at for term and $$ wise?
Give him 5 years and between 25-30 million. I'd be happy with a cap hit around 5.5. If we have to add years to get a nice low cap hit that would be helpful too

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02-01-2013, 12:10 AM
  #290
joshjull
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
To receieve more than vanek is worth?
Again, why on earth would we do this?


Its beyond daft. He should be extended.

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02-01-2013, 12:17 AM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indigoo View Post
Sorry to infiltrate the discussion, so to speak, but I'm looking for some good sites, other than TSN, to look up prospects, CHL player/team stats etc...
http://eliteprospects.com (exactly what you want)
http://hockeydb.com (good second choice, but is far more threadbare)
http://hockey-reference.com (only has players who've been in an NHL game, afaik, but is great at what it does).

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Old
02-01-2013, 12:34 AM
  #292
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Again, why on earth would we do this?


Its beyond daft. He should be extended.
I don't think we should, just explaining the simple theory of selling high

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02-01-2013, 01:32 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
I don't think we should, just explaining the simple theory of selling high

Wow..just wow.

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Old
02-01-2013, 02:07 AM
  #294
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There's inherent value in having a face of a franchise, even if he's not a superstar. That's Vanek. By the end of his career he could be up there with Perreault and Hasek in terms of fan appreciation.

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02-01-2013, 04:50 AM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
http://eliteprospects.com (exactly what you want)
http://hockeydb.com (good second choice, but is far more threadbare)
http://hockey-reference.com (only has players who've been in an NHL game, afaik, but is great at what it does).
Thanks Rob!

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02-01-2013, 05:45 AM
  #296
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To get in on the ROR discussion:

Stafford was mentioned by the avs fans, what about Stafford + Girgensons for ROR?

As for Ennis, I don't know how much we or they would need to add seeing as ROR isn't under contract. He's perfectly happy to sit out from the avs, why not buffalo too?

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02-01-2013, 07:10 AM
  #297
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Vanek has over the years shown to be a little on the soft side... But to want him to be moved is short sighted.

First, I'm not sure that we could get anything in a trade that would offset his loss. He's a guy we want and need to have around for quite awhile. And due to the fact that he's not the toughest guy, we need a secondary player that is somewhat similar to him. If we want to move people, we need to move someone to net us a lesser version of Vanek. Surround those guys with grit and tenacity and move from there.

I don't think you can move Vanek at this point. He's been entirely too much of a factor, and the one game he sat we very obviously missed him. There are other pieces that we can move: Ennis, Leopold, McNabb/Brennan, perhaps even Stafford, etc.

It's just my opinion, but moving Vanek is a mistake.

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02-01-2013, 08:06 AM
  #298
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Jochen Hecht was a very good, young two way player at one point in his career as well. There are a lot of players that start like that, but you don't give up the farm to get them. Colorado currently views him as a complimentary piece, not a core piece, and they know him better than anyone. That should say a lot to those willing to be discerning about him. You have to accomplish more than what he has to earn the type of praise you guys are heaping on him. It's really pretty funny. A dissenting opinion around here equals "people who don't know anything."

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02-01-2013, 08:18 AM
  #299
Jame
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Jochen Hecht was a very good, young two way player at one point in his career as well. There are a lot of players that start like that, but you don't give up the farm to get them. Colorado currently views him as a complimentary piece, not a core piece, and they know him better than anyone. That should say a lot to those willing to be discerning about him. You have to accomplish more than what he has to earn the type of praise you guys are heaping on him. It's really pretty funny. A dissenting opinion around here equals "people who don't know anything."

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02-01-2013, 08:19 AM
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Jochen Hecht was a very good, young two way player at one point in his career as well. There are a lot of players that start like that, but you don't give up the farm to get them. Colorado currently views him as a complimentary piece, not a core piece, and they know him better than anyone. That should say a lot to those willing to be discerning about him. You have to accomplish more than what he has to earn the type of praise you guys are heaping on him. It's really pretty funny. A dissenting opinion around here equals "people who don't know anything."
ROR at the age of 20 put up 55 points. Hecht only broke 50 points twice: 52 and 56. I don't get what the point of your first few sentences are. You seem to be saying there are a lot of players who start out as good two-way guys and somehow ... get worse? The truth is there are few players who start out at the pro level (much less NHL) as a strong two-way all-situations guy. ROR is basically a shut-down center who put up 55 points as a 20 year old. What is not significant about that?

Also, I don't know how you can discern how Colorado values him simply based on the lack of a contractual agreement. We're only talking a matter of a week or two from when Benn's agreement was reached, now PK Subban's. That hardly says anything.

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