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Rebuild poll!

View Poll Results: Rebuild?
No rebuild 6 7.69%
Semi rebuild 42 53.85%
Total rebuild 30 38.46%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-02-2005, 01:46 AM
  #1
leaflover
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Rebuild poll!

We seem divided as leaf fans on rebuilding or at least how we go about it.so this poll is not meant to hijack the rebuild thread but rather to add to it.
3 options.
1.No rebuild(carry on with a veteran line-up and dealing picks and prospects and go for cup right away)
2.Semi rebuild(Keeping a veteran core but bringing in prospects to fill a few holes)
3.Total rebuild(Trade or release most vets and play the kids,finish low and build through draft)

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03-02-2005, 01:56 AM
  #2
A.J. ¹
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A total rebuild wouldn't make sense here since we barely have any vets to get rid of anyways (we only have Sundin, Nolan, Klee & Belfour), the other guys are 29 and under I believe (Tucker, Antropov, Stajan, Ponikarovsky, Kilger, Belak, Perrott, Wilm, Kaberle, McCabe, Berg, Pilar, Colaiacovo & Tellqvist).


Last edited by A.J. ¹: 03-02-2005 at 02:02 AM.
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03-02-2005, 02:00 AM
  #3
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Reguardless of the whole rebuild debate. Leafs management still owes it to the fans to keep a competitive team. I am willing to bet that the majority of fans don't want to see the Leafs with a payroll in the middle of the pack when we are the top revenue making team in the NHL. Yes play the kids that you have, but the kids need some stars to learn from. They need the proper mix of youth and veterans. There is no certain formula to winning the cup. So you can't just say lets build a team we know will lose so we have a chance to be good in the future if our scouts do a good job. Total rebuilds are for teams that are loosing money and can't afford to keep their star players so they need to trade them in order to get new stars that are cheaper. Most teams have no choice but to rebuild. The last thing I want to see is a 25 Million dollar payroll with the owners bringing in 120 Million in revenue. I would be very disapointed if the Leafs did not keep their payroll at the Cap maximum.

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03-02-2005, 02:08 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaflover
We seem divided as leaf fans on rebuilding or at least how we go about it.so this poll is not meant to hijack the rebuild thread but rather to add to it.
3 options.
1.No rebuild(carry on with a veteran line-up and dealing picks and prospects and go for cup right away)
2.Semi rebuild(Keeping a veteran core but bringing in prospects to fill a few holes)
3.Total rebuild(Trade or release most vets and play the kids,finish low and build through draft)
leaflover............

I say rebuild totally and start up from scratch........Blow up the team to a million pieces and start over again.............the team that they already had was pretty ancient.......if they're not the oldest team in the League then they are up there in the Top 3........Leafs have had to rely HEAVILY on their #1 goalie Eddie Belfour and he's going on 40.......that should be the position the Leafs concentrate first and foremost.........build the team with a solid netminder and then work your way out with d-men and good skating high scoring forwards because something tells me the NHL once it resumes play will want to inforce some new rules to open up the game some more....the scoring will be up so it's important that Toronto invest wisely with a top-notch netminder and build the team around SPEED and FINESS.

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03-02-2005, 07:29 AM
  #5
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Semi

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03-02-2005, 07:40 AM
  #6
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Rebuild totally and start from scratch.

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03-02-2005, 07:47 AM
  #7
leaflover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
Reguardless of the whole rebuild debate. Leafs management still owes it to the fans to keep a competitive team. I am willing to bet that the majority of fans don't want to see the Leafs with a payroll in the middle of the pack when we are the top revenue making team in the NHL. Yes play the kids that you have, but the kids need some stars to learn from. They need the proper mix of youth and veterans. There is no certain formula to winning the cup. So you can't just say lets build a team we know will lose so we have a chance to be good in the future if our scouts do a good job. Total rebuilds are for teams that are loosing money and can't afford to keep their star players so they need to trade them in order to get new stars that are cheaper. Most teams have no choice but to rebuild. The last thing I want to see is a 25 Million dollar payroll with the owners bringing in 120 Million in revenue. I would be very disapointed if the Leafs did not keep their payroll at the Cap maximum.
You're absolutely right about there being no sure way to guarantee a cup win.It just comes down to deciding which approach is the most likely to pan out.In my opinion you need to have a solid enough core of inexpensive talented youth that with the additions of a couple top UFA's can become a serious contender.If we're going to be blowing half our allotted payroll on 4 or 5 UFA's then we'll be stuck with a handful of players making the league minimum just to stay under the impending cap.I think its quite safe to assume that those at the bottom of the pay scale will also be at the bottom of the talent scale.So IMO if you have to suffer a few years without making the playoffs then so be it.We couldn't spend our way to glory without payroll limitations,it will IMO be an even less effective strategy with a salary cap.
I'm with monkey,blow it up and start from scratch.Have faith that our scouting department can find a few gems on entry draft day.Hire a coach that can nurture and develope young players and stock up the system with prospects.To me,winning a playoff round every year before bowing out of the playoffs just isnt cutting it,and i'd like to give an alternate route a try.We've given the veteran laden team and spending to the max method sufficient opportunities and its failed.Why its failed is a whole other thread topic with numerous opinions but the bottom line is it has failed to produce a championship.Lets try something else.

If a mod could incorporate the poll and these few posts of this thread into the existing rebuild thread it would be greatly appreciated as i feel there is some good discussion going on there and i really didn't want to take anything away from it.I just wanted insight into what percentages of leaf fans felt was the direction we should take in pursuit of a Stanley Cup victory.
Thank you.

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03-02-2005, 08:16 AM
  #8
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The longer this lockout goes, the more uncertain the future is for everyone. Not many teams will have players under contract at the end of this season. It'll be a free for all in a new economic environment, meaning the Leafs could re-load a lot cheaper. The best policy though is to keep pumping funds into the scouting and developing talent. It has been since the late 50s that the Leafs have actually done a re-build (one they started by grabbing a 27 year old goalie out of the Rangers farm system!)

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03-02-2005, 08:20 AM
  #9
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I voted for Semi.

By the way this is my 500th post

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03-02-2005, 09:38 AM
  #10
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So blowing up the team is everyone's answer to winning in the near future is it. This is what the Leafs would look like if they blew up the team.

Forwards

Antropov - Sundin - Ponikarovsky
Tucker - Stajan - Steen
Kilger - Wellwood - Druken
Kukumberg - Wilm - Belak

Spares: Perrtot, Williams

Defence

McCabe - Kaberle
Colaiacovo - Pilar
Berg - White

Spares: Hedin

Goalies

Tellqvist
Aubin


Here is an estimated payroll for this blown up team.

Mats Sundin $8,000,000.00
Bryan McCabe $4,450,000.00
Nik Antropov $1,325,000.00
Tomas Kaberle $2,900,000.00
Darcy Tucker $2,100,000.00
Wade Belak $1,000,000.00
Alexei Ponikarovsky $800,000.00
Chad Kilger $800,000.00
Mat Stajan $600,000.00
J.S. Aubin $600,000.00
Mikeal Tellqvist $600,000.00
Carlo Colaiacovo $550,000.00
Karel Pilar $525,000.00
Clark Wilm $450,000.00
Kyle Wellwood $450,000.00
Alexander Steen $450,000.00
Harold Druken $400,000.00
Jeremy Williams $400,000.00
Ian White $400,000.00
Pierre Hedin $400,000.00
Branden Bell $400,000.00
Roman Kukumberg $400,000.00


Total Payroll $27,000,000.00 (With 24% rollback - $20,388,000.00)


Blowing up the team will insure us last place in the NHL. That doesn't even insure us of the top pick either. Blowing up the team completely is not the answer. This would result in 10 years of no playoffs in my opinion. What we really need to do is This.

1. Hold onto our sighned players
2. Play our prospects that are ready
3. Fill the remaining holes with UFA's who are still fairly young
4. Stop trading our draft picks away
5. Improve our scouting

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03-02-2005, 09:50 AM
  #11
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This is what I want to see the line up look like for next season.

Forwards

O'Neill - Sundin - Nolan
Antropov - Lindros - Ponikarovsky (The new improved sky line)
Tucker - Stajan - Kilger (The energy line)
Wellwood - Steen - Ling

Spares: Belak for toughness, Druken for scoring, Wilm for grit and defence.

Defence

McCabe - Kaberle
Klee - Pilar
Berg - Colaiacovo

Spares: Moro or a UFA (So why not give him a shot, save the money.)

Goalies

Belfour
Aubin



Here is an estimated payroll with my 24 man roster.

Mats Sundin $8,000,000.00
Ed Belfour $8,000,000.00
Owen Nolan $6,500,000.00
Bryan McCabe $4,450,000.00
Jeff O'Neill $3,735,000.00
Eric Lindros $3,000,000.00
Nik Antropov $1,325,000.00
Tomas Kaberle $2,900,000.00
Ken Klee $2,500,000.00
Darcy Tucker $2,100,000.00
Aki Berg $1,400,000.00
Wade Belak $1,000,000.00
Alexei Ponikarovsky $800,000.00
Chad Kilger $800,000.00
Mat Stajan $600,000.00
J.S. Aubin $600,000.00
Carlo Colaiacovo $550,000.00
Karel Pilar $525,000.00
Clark Wilm $450,000.00
Kyle Wellwood $450,000.00
Alexander Steen $450,000.00
David Ling $400,000.00
Harold Druken $400,000.00
Marc Moro $400,000.00

Total Payroll $51,000,000.00 (With 24% rollback - $38,000,000.00)

This would leave us some wiggle room for the trade deadline.

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Old
03-02-2005, 10:17 AM
  #12
leaflover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
This is what I want to see the line up look like for next season.

Forwards

O'Neill - Sundin - Nolan
Antropov - Lindros - Ponikarovsky (The new improved sky line)
Tucker - Stajan - Kilger (The energy line)
Wellwood - Steen - Ling

Spares: Belak for toughness, Druken for scoring, Wilm for grit and defence.

Defence

McCabe - Kaberle
Klee - Pilar
Berg - Colaiacovo

Spares: Moro or a UFA (So why not give him a shot, save the money.)

Goalies

Belfour
Aubin



Here is an estimated payroll with my 24 man roster.

Mats Sundin $8,000,000.00
Ed Belfour $8,000,000.00
Owen Nolan $6,500,000.00
Bryan McCabe $4,450,000.00
Jeff O'Neill $3,735,000.00
Eric Lindros $3,000,000.00
Nik Antropov $1,325,000.00
Tomas Kaberle $2,900,000.00
Ken Klee $2,500,000.00
Darcy Tucker $2,100,000.00
Aki Berg $1,400,000.00
Wade Belak $1,000,000.00
Alexei Ponikarovsky $800,000.00
Chad Kilger $800,000.00
Mat Stajan $600,000.00
J.S. Aubin $600,000.00
Carlo Colaiacovo $550,000.00
Karel Pilar $525,000.00
Clark Wilm $450,000.00
Kyle Wellwood $450,000.00
Alexander Steen $450,000.00
David Ling $400,000.00
Harold Druken $400,000.00
Marc Moro $400,000.00

Total Payroll $51,000,000.00 (With 24% rollback - $38,000,000.00)

This would leave us some wiggle room for the trade deadline.
Let me ask you this.
Is that a team that has any chance of ending the cup drought?
Is it a team that even makes the playoffs?

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03-02-2005, 10:19 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
This is what I want to see the line up look like for next season.

Here is an estimated payroll with my 24 man roster.

Mats Sundin $8,000,000.00
Ed Belfour $8,000,000.00
Owen Nolan $6,500,000.00
Bryan McCabe $4,450,000.00
Jeff O'Neill $3,735,000.00
Eric Lindros $3,000,000.00
Nik Antropov $1,325,000.00
Tomas Kaberle $2,900,000.00
Ken Klee $2,500,000.00
Darcy Tucker $2,100,000.00
Aki Berg $1,400,000.00
Wade Belak $1,000,000.00
Alexei Ponikarovsky $800,000.00
Chad Kilger $800,000.00
Mat Stajan $600,000.00
J.S. Aubin $600,000.00
Carlo Colaiacovo $550,000.00
Karel Pilar $525,000.00
Clark Wilm $450,000.00
Kyle Wellwood $450,000.00
Alexander Steen $450,000.00
David Ling $400,000.00
Harold Druken $400,000.00
Marc Moro $400,000.00

Total Payroll $51,000,000.00 (With 24% rollback - $38,000,000.00)

This would leave us some wiggle room for the trade deadline.
HUGE flaw in your logic ..

Before any player can be signed a new CBA has to be in place .. Correct ..

So once teams start signing the 24% even if it will be on in a future deal ..will only apply to former existing contracts .. (Sundin, Nolan, Beflour, McCabe,Kaberle, Tucker, Klee) ONLY ..

Signing O'Neil as an UFA and then taking off 24% after he has agree is Incorrect. If you set his Value at 3.7 Mil then that is the number towards the Cap.

Also Rookie contracts Stajan and Carlo are playing under Entry level deals and have their own caps and limits and have nothing to do with any rollback.. Also both sides have basically agreed on 850K max as the Cap .. Steen as a former first rounder may ask near the top of that like all the other players in his draft got from that year .. Matty makes 975 K and Carlo is 1.15 M .. Those numbers are pretty well set.

The players as a whole by the cancelled season lost a total of 1.5 Bil ...The 24% originally offered was to avoid a cap and save a season and that value to the owners was around 500-600 Mil .. The NHLPA gave up 3 times that amount at this stage and a Hard Cap is inevitable now so why offer a rollback now when 65% of the league is set to become UFA on July 1st, 2005 .. The 24% has not impact or value on either side anymore ..

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03-02-2005, 11:02 AM
  #14
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03-02-2005, 12:36 PM
  #15
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I think a total rebuilding is needed in Toronto. I do not think semi rebuilds work for several reasons

1: If a team keeps bringing in NHL talent to play major roles on the ice, it makes it more difficult for the young players to come up and make an impact. If guys like Bell and White are always limited to a #5-#7 defenseman or a player like is never given a chance to play on a top line it can hurt their development.

2: I think its harder to rebuild a team with the early draft picks gained by not making a playoffs. Unless the Leafs were able to make a trade for such a pick finding a player like Nash or Carter to replace Sundin or Belfour would be much harder.

3: If they get close to the playoffs or are playing well at the deadline it could make managment lose sight of their plans and make a move to improve the team short term and we're right back to were we are now.

I think a total rebuild is needed in Toronto.

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03-02-2005, 01:31 PM
  #16
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release all vets and get Crosby!

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03-02-2005, 03:52 PM
  #17
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Sorry to dissapoint apoint any one but there will be no total rebuild no matter how bad you want it .

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03-02-2005, 04:22 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
Sorry to dissapoint apoint any one but there will be no total rebuild no matter how bad you want it .
I think what we want is a Stanley Cup victory.Those voting total rebuild feel its the more likely way to eventually reach that goal.At least thats what i want.If we had won a cup or two doing business the way we've done it i too would be against totally rebuilding,but we haven't.

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03-02-2005, 04:29 PM
  #19
richardn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaflover
Let me ask you this.
Is that a team that has any chance of ending the cup drought?
Is it a team that even makes the playoffs?
Who is to say how well or poor that team would do. Yes I think this team could very well make the playoffs and make a run. It is basically the same team as last year with some youth to fill some spots and O'Neill for Roberts and Lindros for Joe Niewendyk. The only real loss in scoring would be Mogiliny. Which we did alright last year with out. You got to ermember that the other big spending teams will be restricted now as well so there teams will be toned down the same as ours. I just think the Leafs are obligated to put the most competitive team on the ice. I know the casual fan base in Toronto and they would be calling for JFJ's head if they blew the team up and started from scratch. Let me ask you this. Is it fair to the rest of the league to purposely build a team to lose. This logic makes no sence unless you can't afford to keep players.

Do you honestly want a 20 Million dollar payroll?

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03-02-2005, 04:29 PM
  #20
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I voted semi rebuild.........

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03-02-2005, 04:33 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaflover
I think what we want is a Stanley Cup victory.Those voting total rebuild feel its the more likely way to eventually reach that goal.At least thats what i want.If we had won a cup or two doing business the way we've done it i too would be against totally rebuilding,but we haven't.
This is going to be the largest free agent pool in a very long time. The Leafs would be crazy not to make some pick ups to young UFA's who are probably going to be signed for less with the cap. I say lock a few new key guys up to long term contracts and build the team with youth arround them. I don't see what is wrong with this.

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03-02-2005, 04:43 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
HUGE flaw in your logic ..

Before any player can be signed a new CBA has to be in place .. Correct ..

So once teams start signing the 24% even if it will be on in a future deal ..will only apply to former existing contracts .. (Sundin, Nolan, Beflour, McCabe,Kaberle, Tucker, Klee) ONLY ..

Signing O'Neil as an UFA and then taking off 24% after he has agree is Incorrect. If you set his Value at 3.7 Mil then that is the number towards the Cap.

Also Rookie contracts Stajan and Carlo are playing under Entry level deals and have their own caps and limits and have nothing to do with any rollback.. Also both sides have basically agreed on 850K max as the Cap .. Steen as a former first rounder may ask near the top of that like all the other players in his draft got from that year .. Matty makes 975 K and Carlo is 1.15 M .. Those numbers are pretty well set.

The players as a whole by the cancelled season lost a total of 1.5 Bil ...The 24% originally offered was to avoid a cap and save a season and that value to the owners was around 500-600 Mil .. The NHLPA gave up 3 times that amount at this stage and a Hard Cap is inevitable now so why offer a rollback now when 65% of the league is set to become UFA on July 1st, 2005 .. The 24% has not impact or value on either side anymore ..
My Payroll is just an estimate going off current salaries for the most part with the 24% rollback. I could have put any numbers in and I would still have people telling me those numbers are not acurate. I know they are not totally accurate they are just my guess at it.

Messenger run through my roster and give me a rough idea what you think the payroll to my roster would be.

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03-02-2005, 05:05 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn

Do you honestly want a 20 Million dollar payroll?
I dont care what the payroll is.
I just want the team to win something for a change.
Look at the teams that win the stanley cup and tell me which of them have as little home grown talent as we do.
Tampa
New Jersey
Colorado
Detroit
Dallas
Sure they spend(or spent) to help them win the cup,but all of them have superior talent that have come up through the system.And they got that homegrown talent by suffering at least a couple lean years.Why missing the playoffs for 2-3 seasons and hopefully turning the few higher picks into a more solid youth base,as opposed to winning a playoff round is so distasteful is what i dont understand.
How many more times do we have to fail at buying a cup before we try another method of winning it?
3,4,8,15,20,38?
Do we never try an alternative method?

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03-02-2005, 05:20 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaflover
I dont care what the payroll is.
I just want the team to win something for a change.
Look at the teams that win the stanley cup and tell me which of them have as little home grown talent as we do.
Tampa
New Jersey
Colorado
Detroit
Dallas
Sure they spend(or spent) to help them win the cup,but all of them have superior talent that have come up through the system.And they got that homegrown talent by suffering at least a couple lean years.Why missing the playoffs for 2-3 seasons and hopefully turning the few higher picks into a more solid youth base,as opposed to winning a playoff round is so distasteful is what i dont understand.
How many more times do we have to fail at buying a cup before we try another method of winning it?
3,4,8,15,20,38?
Do we never try an alternative method?
So your basically saying that the Leafs should puposely build a team to lose all for the sake of a handfull of top draft picks? I think season ticket holders would be out raged. I could see a total rebuild if the Leafs were cash straped but as the most profitable team in the NHL I don't think a total rebuild will occur unless the Leafs are out of the playoff hunt with a competitve team. Then they would have some issues and could justify a total rebuild to the fans Eg. the Rangers. The bottom line is I would say there is about a 1% chance that the Leafs organization would go for a total rebuild imediately.

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03-02-2005, 05:23 PM
  #25
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I am sticking to my guns. I think the Leafs will take this kind of approach in the new NHL.

1. Hold onto the sighned players
2. Play the prospects that are ready
3. Fill the remaining holes with UFA's who are still fairly young
4. Stop trading the draft picks away
5. Improve the scouting

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