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Rebuild poll!

View Poll Results: Rebuild?
No rebuild 6 7.69%
Semi rebuild 42 53.85%
Total rebuild 30 38.46%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-03-2005, 03:02 PM
  #51
Patty Lee
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But when you look at all the teams that have won the cup recently they all have at least one player, normlly the best and most important to the team, who was picked very early in the draft and who has played his whole career with that team.
Like Sundin?

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If Ferguson can do what Clark has done and make some trades to get players like Carter and Pitaken without having to finish at the bottom of the standings he should do it and that would be much better to see, but I don't think that a very likely thing to happen.
why can't it?

There is (was) so much parity in the NHL right now that almost anyone who makes it in the playoffs has a chance to win. Tell me you picked Tampa and Calgary to go to the finals last year. Did you? The Leafs don't need to blow up their team, they need to do 3 other things instead. 1) hold on to their picks 2) make smarter trades. 3) get a coach

The Avs, if you're looking for an example, won the cup in '01. They had been a non rebuilder for at least 10 years. You're going to point to Sakic, 15th overall in '87. Are you going to tell me the Leafs haven't had a top 15 pick since '87?

Look at the evidence? That's just as easy for me to say. The Leafs have finished near the bottom, had the opportunity to draft high, and what has it won them? Look at the evidence and you'll see they haven't won anything.

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Old
03-03-2005, 03:40 PM
  #52
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ACC1224: Yes like Sundin, but for how much longer? And whos going to fill his skates when he leaves? As for the Avs, they also had Forsberg who was picked 7th overall and several of their players were traded for using players they picked early on in the draft. Had they not picked early for all those years a lot of those trades wouldn't have happened. And I already said if Ferguson can turn say a McCabe and Kaberle into two good early picks GREAT he should do it. I just dunno if he can. And with a salary coming with the new CBA draft picks are going to become that much more valuable.

Drafting high doesn't mean a team will win the cup, but teams that have won the cup all do it.

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03-03-2005, 04:02 PM
  #53
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I think we should do a somewhat of a rebuild... add a few youngsters either thru trades or thru the farm system, but I don't think a full rebuild is necessary.

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03-03-2005, 04:04 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Porn*
Yup...


keep the youngin's + tucker, kaberle, mccabe, poni, antropov and rebuild from there...
That's a full rebuild as far as I'm concerned. Keep everyone 28 and younger and go from there. Sundin can stay too because if he doesn't, JFJ loses his two best friends.

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03-03-2005, 05:25 PM
  #55
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I used to be a Girl Guide, and my troop had a saying that really helps this question, at least in my opinion. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

In this case the worst would be if the Leafs are unable to make a trade for an early draft pick, if none of their young players turn out better then how we think they will, no young elite player becomes a UFA for them to sign and no team trades a young player to the Leafs and their only option is to draft that superstar player they need and develop him themselves. The best is, obviously, if one or more of those things happens and they don't have to draft that player themselves.

If they are going to plan for the worst that would mean planning for and excuting a total rebuild while keeping their options open and hoping that something happens which allows them to do the same job with a semi rebuild.

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Old
03-03-2005, 11:34 PM
  #56
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Leafs line up next year .

Crosby - Sundin - Nolan
Antropov - Lindros - Carter
Tucker - Stajan - Ponikarovsky
Steen - Wellwood - Kilger (Belak, Ling , Wilm)

McCabe - Leetch
Klee - Kaberle
Pilar - Colaiacovo (Berg)

Belfour, Aubin

P.S. I hope no one takes this serious.

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03-04-2005, 12:09 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
Leafs line up next year .

Crosby - Sundin - Nolan
Antropov - Lindros - Carter
Tucker - Stajan - Ponikarovsky
Steen - Wellwood - Kilger (Belak, Ling , Wilm)

McCabe - Leetch
Klee - Kaberle
Pilar - Colaiacovo (Berg)

Belfour, Aubin
I took out the last line .. just on principle .. but it sure looks better then we will have ..

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03-05-2005, 11:16 AM
  #58
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[QUOTE=richardn] Leafs line up next year .

Crosby - Sundin - Nolan
Antropov - Lindros - Carter
Tucker - Stajan - Ponikarovsky
Steen - Wellwood - Kilger (Belak, Ling , Wilm)

McCabe - Leetch
Klee - Kaberle
Pilar - Colaiacovo (Berg)

Belfour, Aubin

QUOTE]
First line of fowards, no Everything else, ya

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Old
03-05-2005, 01:07 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Master of Puppets
Come on total rebuild. I want my team to have an identity, not a myriad of changing faces.

This has not been possible since the advent of free agency and player unions - in all team sports. There will always be a myriad of changing faces. The best one can hope for is the occasional Stevens, or Stevie Y, or Sundin who not only choose to stay put, but whose teams haven't chosen to move them.

I loved my Brooklyn Dodgers of the 50s - the same faces year in and year out for almost ten years. Those days are gone, as are the Brooklyn Dodgers.

Pity.

Of course, in those days players were underpaid and virtual slaves to the whims of team ownership.

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Old
03-05-2005, 02:29 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by emillie
Most drafts have one or two elite prospects in them.But even if the Leafs go into one that doesn't have one, where else will that player come from? I just look at other teams and what they have done. Most that try to stay competive and build that way don't win anything. The ones that have totally rebuilt have won cups.
I can't believe you want to purposely finish last for a chance to get a top pick . There are mant star players out there that go in the draft form 10 to 30. Just a quick look, here is some examples:

95 Draft
Jerome Iginla 11th
Petr Sykora 17th

96 draft
Week draft

97 Draft
Marian Hossa 12th

98 Draft
Alex Tanguay 12th
Robyn Regehr 19th
Simon Gagne 22nd
Scott Gomez 27th

99 Draft
Barret Jackman 17th
Martin Havlat 26th

These are all very good players to build any team arround. Bottom line is basement dwellers are for teams in the poor house. The Leafs will never ever build a team to lose just for the chance at getting a top 5 pick. What happens if the Leafs finish 30th and end up getting the 4th pick and the draft and there pick turns into a bomb. Was it worth it to throw away a whole season. No I know what we will do. We will throw away another season and try again. In the mean time other teams are sighning up all the proven star UFA's like Pronger, Foote, Scott Niedemyre, Jeff O'Neill, Ziggy Palffy and on and on..............The Leafs can afford to pay for stars through UFA. They can still improve there roster through the draft by drafting wisely and holding onto their prospects. Which they will have to do because they won't be able to buy a whole roster any more. But other teams will be in the same boat.

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03-05-2005, 03:32 PM
  #61
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Out of your list, a team can't build a winner around guys like Petr Sykora, Weeks, Robyn Regehr, Simon Gagne, Scott Gomez, Martin Havlat. Those guys are great complementary players but they aren't on the same level as guys like Iginla, Hossa, and Tanguay, all of whom were taken with non-playoff picks.

How many teams built on proven UFA's have won the cup? More importantly, how well has it worked for the Leafs, even when they had Sundin in this prime to build around? Teams that win are built around the players the develop and the UFA's are brought in the fill the holes and complement them. For example, the Wings bring in Hull, Hasek, and Shanahan to help win the cup but the team was build around Yzerman, Fedorov and Lidstrom.

I already said if the Leafs can get the elite player to build around without finishing out of the playoffs and drafting in the top 5 or 10, whether it be by trading, getting lucky with a later pick or whatever great I would much rather see that. But a team can't plan on getting lucky like that. I see you like to look at the negative side of things, "what if the Leafs draft a bust", well what if they get the 4th overall pick and get a Rick Nash type player? Would you be saying they should signed O'Neill and Palffy and gotten into the playoffs then? Or would you rather have a 20 year old player like Rick Nash to build around for the next 10 to 15 years?

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Old
03-05-2005, 03:49 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
I can't believe you want to purposely finish last for a chance to get a top pick . There are mant star players out there that go in the draft form 10 to 30. Just a quick look, here is some examples:

95 Draft
Jerome Iginla 11th
Petr Sykora 17th

96 draft
Week draft

97 Draft
Marian Hossa 12th

98 Draft
Alex Tanguay 12th
Robyn Regehr 19th
Simon Gagne 22nd
Scott Gomez 27th

99 Draft
Barret Jackman 17th
Martin Havlat 26th

These are all very good players to build any team arround. Bottom line is basement dwellers are for teams in the poor house. The Leafs will never ever build a team to lose just for the chance at getting a top 5 pick. What happens if the Leafs finish 30th and end up getting the 4th pick and the draft and there pick turns into a bomb. Was it worth it to throw away a whole season. No I know what we will do. We will throw away another season and try again. In the mean time other teams are sighning up all the proven star UFA's like Pronger, Foote, Scott Niedemyre, Jeff O'Neill, Ziggy Palffy and on and on..............The Leafs can afford to pay for stars through UFA. They can still improve there roster through the draft by drafting wisely and holding onto their prospects. Which they will have to do because they won't be able to buy a whole roster any more. But other teams will be in the same boat.
They dont have to finish last or be horrible.By getting the youth into NHL jerseys and playing more significant roles it will expediate they're developement and help them reach thier potential earlier.Or it will demonstrate they likely do not have what it takes to make any impact in the NHL.They might stink and finish bottom 3 but at least there is some benefit to doing so.If the 04/05 season had been played and they were to under acheive and finish 12-15th overall using veterans then we lose both the higher draft pick and NHL developement experience for our youth.If we have some quality in our system by the time NHL hockey resumes it will start to show and payoff within 2-3 years.Maybe our prospects aren't that terrible and maybe they are,but we'll never know what NHL quality we have until they play here.One other point is this.Our veteran teams often looked like they lacked the energy to go the distance or were suffering from lingering injuries to keep up.Especially in the most recent losses to the Flyers.Often that step they'd lost in thier skating was all too obvious and was exploited by our opponents.

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Old
03-05-2005, 04:41 PM
  #63
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I vote for no rebuild. Toronto is a club that does not need to rebuild when you look at the big picture we have a decent farm system and guys who are ready to step in now and guys who will be ready to step in in the next year or two. Plus I think the league and the players will agree on a younger UFA age with the new cba. So there should be a much larger range of players to choose from when the free agent period strikes. Honistly I don't see the point in rebuilding unless your team tanks out for more then two or three years. If you are a competive team and you are able to build a solid prospects base then there is no need to rebuild there is however a need to re-tool. Totally rebuilding is something I don't see any big market team doing ever again even with a new cba infact I think that a new Cba will or could make a total rebuiding process a thing of the past. Also I think teams are going to be able to protect there top player with a franchise lable. And they are going to make the trade deadline alot sooner. This should keep teams from losing there top players simply because they couln't afford to pony up the cash.

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03-05-2005, 06:01 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Joey24
Totally rebuilding is something I don't see any big market team doing ever again even with a new cba infact I think that a new Cba will or could make a total rebuiding process a thing of the past.
The Rangers are doing it right now.

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03-05-2005, 06:27 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by leaflover
The Rangers are doing it right now.
Only because they stunk and haven't made the playoffs in how many years. But that hasn't been the case here. Starting from scratch is not the answer. What are we an expansion team. I don't know how many times I have to say this but, the Leafs will not purposely build a team to lose, NEVER. Teams like Comumbas and Nashville and Carolina don't have the money to sign free agents. Sp they have to play there prospects and there for bomb the season giving them high draft picks. These teams do this because they have no choice. Fortunatly the Leafs do have the choice and pretending to be an expansion team is a joke if ask me. Also another thing is most free agents don't want to go to these teams, they want to go to the Toronto's and the Detroit's and the Colorado's. Cutting the team of all its key veterans and bringing the payroll down to 20 million dollars would be a total ambaracement to the Leafs. The Leafs absolutely must stay commited to staying competitve.

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03-05-2005, 06:36 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaflover
The Rangers are doing it right now.
Did they have any choice? That team has pretty much stunk year in and year out since they won it all back in '94. This is despite the fact that they have often been the team to make the most noise in the off season.

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03-05-2005, 09:16 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Christ
Did they have any choice? That team has pretty much stunk year in and year out since they won it all back in '94. This is despite the fact that they have often been the team to make the most noise in the off season.
Of course they had a choice.They kept trying to buy another one and eventually switched tactics.We havent won in 38 years and you still want the same old same old.
Like i said winning a playoff round and finishing top ten is nice.Just imagine what it would be like to win a cup though.This hasnt been a stanley cup calibre team since 1967 and i'm tired of it and willing to at least try something else.

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03-05-2005, 09:32 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by richardn
Only because they stunk and haven't made the playoffs in how many years. But that hasn't been the case here. Starting from scratch is not the answer. What are we an expansion team. I don't know how many times I have to say this but, the Leafs will not purposely build a team to lose, NEVER. Teams like Comumbas and Nashville and Carolina don't have the money to sign free agents. Sp they have to play there prospects and there for bomb the season giving them high draft picks. These teams do this because they have no choice. Fortunatly the Leafs do have the choice and pretending to be an expansion team is a joke if ask me. Also another thing is most free agents don't want to go to these teams, they want to go to the Toronto's and the Detroit's and the Colorado's. Cutting the team of all its key veterans and bringing the payroll down to 20 million dollars would be a total ambaracement to the Leafs. The Leafs absolutely must stay commited to staying competitve.
You make it sound like we'd be blowing up a dynasty.
Competetive for a playoff birth and competetive for a Stanley Cup championship are 2 different things.
How many more times do we fall short before going another route?
I asked this earlier.
3,5,10,15,25,38,58 more times?

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03-05-2005, 10:08 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emillie
I think a total rebuilding is needed in Toronto. I do not think semi rebuilds work for several reasons

1: If a team keeps bringing in NHL talent to play major roles on the ice, it makes it more difficult for the young players to come up and make an impact. If guys like Bell and White are always limited to a #5-#7 defenseman or a player like is never given a chance to play on a top line it can hurt their development.

2: I think its harder to rebuild a team with the early draft picks gained by not making a playoffs. Unless the Leafs were able to make a trade for such a pick finding a player like Nash or Carter to replace Sundin or Belfour would be much harder.

3: If they get close to the playoffs or are playing well at the deadline it could make managment lose sight of their plans and make a move to improve the team short term and we're right back to were we are now.

I think a total rebuild is needed in Toronto.
Man whats the problem with the state of the Maple Leafs and the way they have been doing business the past 5 plus years? The only thing I don't agree with is trading away prospects and 1st rounders. even if it is for a Leetch etc. Maybe the NHL should adopt and NFL platform where the team you get going into the season is the team your stuck with. Make all moves happen in the off season. It just gets me a little angry when we trade 1st rounders and decent prospects away for guys that we could have either go in the off season or we could have upgraded with the UFA in that same off season. I just think the trade deadline hurts teams in the long run unless they are getting decently young players in there mid 20's to early 30's. Any how I don't agree with rebuilding not a total rebuild anyhow because there is no reason you can't keep competive and bring in guys until some young guys are ready to step up. And for the comment that was made that stated unless they give the young guys a shot and let them get some quality minutes they those prospect don't develop. Well I think that if those players were good enough to make the team then they would be on the team. You don't just let a young guy walk in and take a spot because he is younger then a guy who is better but is older. That is why we have a AHL team to give these players the time they need to get there skills honed. And like I said already if those players were ready to step in and take a spot away from a vet then the management would see this and the same goes for the fact of if they wernt ready.

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03-05-2005, 11:00 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by leaflover
Of course they had a choice.They kept trying to buy another one and eventually switched tactics.We havent won in 38 years and you still want the same old same old.
Like i said winning a playoff round and finishing top ten is nice.Just imagine what it would be like to win a cup though.This hasnt been a stanley cup calibre team since 1967 and i'm tired of it and willing to at least try something else.
You have to agree that the Leafs have had far more success with the free agent game than the Rangers have. We may not have won the cup in 38 years but we have had several teams in the past 10 years that very well could have. There is a lot of luck involved in winning a cup and the Leafs simply have not had it during those ten years. Heck if not for some pretty fluky injuries that have depleted our roster over the past 5 seasons we may very well have had a cup winner in there somewhere.

The Berard injury, the Nolan injuries, the Gilmour injury, Sundin's broken arm, Tucker's seperated shoulder after a dirty hit from Alfredsson, Robert's seperated shoulder...the list goes on. Tampa winning the sup last year had as much to do with the fact that they never sustained any injuries to their star players over the season and playoffs as anything else. If Toronto had have gotten that lucky with the roster we had last season, we could very well have beat the Flyers and played in the final ourselves. No I am not convinced we need a total overhaul as some seem believe suggest we do.

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03-05-2005, 11:12 PM
  #71
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richardn: Its not only expansion teams that can/have rebuilt their teams from scratch, all 6 origin teams have done it. Two of them are in the proccess of doing it right now, why can't the Leafs? Why MUST the Leafs be in the playoffs every year at the expense of winning a cup? They weren't in the playoffs for years in the 70's and 80's and the world didn't end. They missed the playoffs before Cujo got here and the franchise was fine. Simply put, teams that win the cup built through the draft not with UFA's and part of that is early draft picks.

Joey24: My team didnt win the cup in the last 5 years and each year they got older and further away, thats what wrong with how they've done business the last 5 years.

I think some people are missing one very important thing with the Leafs. While they have some good young talent in Stajan, Tellqvist, Colaiacovo, Steen, Bell and White who are all looking like they will be good enough to play for the Leafs very soon or right now, none of them is a Sundin. There is no one to carry this team once he retires. Fletcher was able to steal Sundin from Quebec, though he had to give up Clark it . Unless they can steal another young player like Sundin from another team or get lucky with a later draft pick they won't find another player like that until they draft and develop him.

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03-05-2005, 11:53 PM
  #72
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God! The R word is being spoken in leaf country.

I guess we will forced to if the hard cap is passed. I voted for Semi, only because we have a good core of youngsters who have been in the league for a bit to build around. Kaberle, McCabe, Stajan, Tucker, Poni, Antropov, etc.

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03-06-2005, 02:59 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaflover
The Rangers are doing it right now.
Okay but did you read the full post? Honistly I don't see the point in rebuilding unless your team tanks out for more then two or three years. If you are a competive team and you are able to build a solid prospects base then there is no need to rebuild there is however a need to re-tool. The problem with the Rangers was they went out and tried to buy everybody. They never really had a solid base to start with they were missing the playoffs and decided to go out and just buy, buy, buy. And it didn't work for them. I really don't see them as totally rebuilding as much as I see them trying to dump off some of the horrid decisions they made over the past few years. Thats how I see it anyhow.

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03-06-2005, 10:02 AM
  #74
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Joey24: But it still comes back to those Sundin/Forsberg/Pronger/Nash etc... type playes. If the Leafs had a young player like that to base a semi-rebuilding around they could do that. But they don't have one and to get a replacement for Sundin without drafting him early would be lucky, you can't plan lucky.

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03-06-2005, 12:36 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emillie
Joey24: But it still comes back to those Sundin/Forsberg/Pronger/Nash etc... type playes. If the Leafs had a young player like that to base a semi-rebuilding around they could do that. But they don't have one and to get a replacement for Sundin without drafting him early would be lucky, you can't plan lucky.
You do realize that there is no guarentee that even if the Leafs do get an early pick that they will be drafting a future Sundin, Forsberg or Pronger type...they may wind up with a Daigle or a Stefan or a Legwand...players with great potential who go no where. There is a lot of luck involved even in picking that player early in the draft who will be a star.

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