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12'/13' Draft Thread: Something, Something... SETH JONES!

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01-27-2013, 12:24 PM
  #276
Crispy Crust
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Seth Jones is the total package and it would be incredibly hard to pass him up. On the other hand, MacKinnon is also one of the youngest players in the entire draft.

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01-27-2013, 12:24 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by The Naz View Post
I still think the best lists are the ones we will never see. Pro scouts are paid more then ISS etc, no?

I'm not adverse to Jones at all. If they deem him #1, then I'm excited for that. But I don't think we will see the leafs there. I think we will be 5-10. If we are bad enough for 1st overall, then we have to go BPA, and even consider moving my favourite, Dion.
Listen my friend, I know a scout, yes know a scout.

That had Mackinnon at #1, big fan of his, still is, but even he has elevated Jones to #1 off of the Worlds, Prospects game and recent play of the 2.

And trust me he was VERY high on Mackinnon this year.

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01-27-2013, 12:26 PM
  #278
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Seth Jones is what the doctor ordered for this defense. A Rielly-Jones tandem for the future would be amazing.

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01-27-2013, 12:28 PM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
Leafs will pick who they believe to be BPA, just like last year. We have no idea who the Leafs think is BPA, but if they have Jones at number 1 they will draft him over Mackinnon. You really seem fixated on team needs, I am too but we have needs everywhere...especially on the defensive end.
I'm not overly focussed on need. Not at all.
I like MacKinnon and what he could potentially bring to the franchise a little more than Jones. Simple as that.

I have lots of defenders rated highly. I would love to get our hands on Jones/Ristolainen/Nurse/Morrissy, but if we're picking with MacKinnon on the board, I want MacKinnon. I think his skill, potential, and leadership are a missing element to this team, and he would be the best pick for the organization moving forward.

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01-27-2013, 12:32 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
You intentionally left off the best player (considered by many scouts) because you believe the Leafs need a forward, and so would be happy taking ANY other top 10 forward over the best player (considered by many scouts).

Fantastic.

I don't believe you can even prove why the Leafs need a forward, rather than a d-man. If you can, I would love to see it.



Even accepting this premise (which I don't), why is Mackinnon more marketable than Jones?



The Leafs need defense, and Jones is head and shoulders the best player at his position. You acquire as much talent, regardless of position, and then when you think you can fill in the necessary spots, you trade excess talent.

It's not complicated to understand. This is basic strategy (or should be) of any GM.

So Jones won't become a #1 d-man (or there is risk), but MacKinnon does not have any risk because previous centers panned out? Look at Tyler Seguin/Jonathan Toews/Steven Stamkos/John Tavares!



This is a classic case where convention corrupts the masses.

If only we listened to Socrates centuries ago!



Jones =\= Johnson.

Completely different players.



So, let me get this straight.

1) Teams can have their own lists. So, the Leafs can have their own list.

2) Yet...MacKinnon is a Leaf for sure?

3) Why can't the Leafs see Jones as above MacKinnon? You just said teams can have their own lists.

What am I missing here?
Yes, I believe the Leafs will regard MacKinnon higher than Jones, looking at the future of the franchise.

They could very well have Jones over MacK, we'll never know unless we get the opportunity to choose between the two, I just think they'll value MacKinnon higher.

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01-27-2013, 12:32 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
I just don't see it.

If we have the first pick and don't take Mackinnon, our franchise will watch a another #1 C get away. Seth Jones is special, but Mackinnon could have a chance to become the most marketable player in the game here in Toronto. Think about it.
I really don't want to play the race card and don't want the thread go to deeply down that path.

But Jones in Toronto one of, If not the most multicultural cities in the world would be the most marketable athlete in T.O since Vince Carter. He also has some history in Toronto from when his Dad played for the Raps.

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01-27-2013, 12:36 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
I really don't want to play the race card and don't want the thread go to deeply down that path.

But Jones in Toronto one of, If not the most multicultural cities in the world would be the most marketable athlete in T.O since Vince Carter. He also has some history in Toronto from when his Dad played for the Raps.
lol.

Really?
Because he's a black athlete, in a multi-cultural city, he's going to be the most marketable athlete since Vince Carter?!?!

Get off it. Canada is fixated on Nathan MacKinnon. He's been hailed as the best prospect since Crosby for how long? He was hailed as the number one pick in this draft since.... he was .... 14?

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01-27-2013, 12:50 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
lol.

Really?
Because he's a black athlete, in a multi-cultural city, he's going to be the most marketable athlete since Vince Carter?!?!

Get off it. Canada is fixated on Nathan MacKinnon. He's been hailed as the best prospect since Crosby for how long? He was hailed as the number one pick in this draft since.... he was .... 14?

He's not the best prospect since Crosby though. Stamkos and Tavares the same amount of press(especially Tavares) you could even make a case for Hall who was big contributor in his team winning two Memorial cups.

The whole Crosby romanticisation of Mackinnon is because they both are from the same town and went to the same prep school. There completely different as players and people. Comparing him to possibly the best player of the current generation is unfair to Mackinnon IMO.

But I really couldn't care less about Jones or Mackinnon's marketability in Toronto it was another poster who brought it up. But if you're talking about pure marketability of both the players; Jones IMO has more, Potentially a great deal more.

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01-27-2013, 12:55 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
He's not the best prospect since Crosby though. Stamkos and Tavares the same amount of press(especially Tavares) you could even make a case for Hall who was big contributor in his team winning two Memorial cups.

The whole Crosby romanticisation of Mackinnon is because they both are from the same town and went to the same prep school.

I couldn't care less about Jones or Mackinnon's marketability in Toronto it was another poster who brought it up. But if you're talking about pure marketability of both the players; Jones IMO has more, Potentially a great deal more.
I'm not giving my assessment of MacK, I'm telling you what the general idea is that has been planted in the heads of Canadians. Regardless of what you or I think, these things have been put out there. The average hockey fan is going to mention MacKinnon first, because he's already been marketed heavily. He's a household name in Canada. it's just the way it is.

I don't see it. Those of us who pay attention to hockey rabidly, we know a bunch about quite a few kids coming up, but the average Canadian knows what they've been told, and knows what they've heard, and to dispute the fact that they haven't heard more, and been hyped more on MacKinnon, is crazy.

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01-27-2013, 01:02 PM
  #285
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Does Jones have a mean streak? If so, he could be Pronger 2.0

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01-27-2013, 01:03 PM
  #286
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Does Jones have a mean streak? If so, he could be Pronger 2.0
He likes to throw the body.

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01-27-2013, 01:08 PM
  #287
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Going with the theoretical what if we had the first pick discussion, I think you have to take MacKinnon. That kind of skillset and center talent is so desperately needed. There is no way you can downplay the talent of Jones though so picking him there would certainly be a good choice. At the same time its the chance to get the guy we've needed up the middle since Mats left.

Not that we're likely to finish that low, but interesting discussion on the subject.

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01-27-2013, 01:12 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
If we're drafting a forward, we need someone who will force the issue at the net. Someone who is big enough to command defenders' attention, and open up space for his linemates. He [/B]needs[/B] to be able to play on the wall, and dig pucks out, but also very important, he should be a playmaker as much as anything. We need a guy who will stabilize the defensive effort in our end, and be responsible off of the puck.

If only this mystery man existed....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
I'm not overly focussed on need. Not at all.
I like MacKinnon and what he could potentially bring to the franchise a little more than Jones. Simple as that.

I have lots of defenders rated highly. I would love to get our hands on Jones/Ristolainen/Nurse/Morrissy, but if we're picking with MacKinnon on the board, I want MacKinnon. I think his skill, potential, and leadership are a missing element to this team, and he would be the best pick for the organization moving forward.
I think you are focused on team needs and it is highly debatable who has the higher skill and potential but I think it's Jones, as it appears more scouts feel this, as indicated by Jones generally higher ranking.

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01-27-2013, 01:16 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
I think you are focused on team needs and it is highly debatable who has the higher skill and potential but I think it's Jones, as it appears more scouts feel this, as indicated by Jones generally higher ranking.
It would be nice and easy to paint it that way, wouldn't it?

I've stated a hundred times by now, that I don't really care who we end up with, yet I've made MY preferences clear. Is that based on need? Sure, and I've admitted that, but that's in a situation where all things were equal between guys. So... yeah.

I BELIEVE MacKinnon can top out higher than Jones, in regards to where he can take THIS SPECIFIC FRANCHISE. There's your answer, once again, laid out clearly.

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01-27-2013, 01:17 PM
  #290
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And I think you also just used a post about the kind of forward that this team is lacking, and used the word "need" to your own ends, completely disregarding the context in which the word was used...

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01-27-2013, 01:17 PM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
I really don't want to play the race card and don't want the thread go to deeply down that path.

But Jones in Toronto one of, If not the most multicultural cities in the world would be the most marketable athlete in T.O since Vince Carter. He also has some history in Toronto from when his Dad played for the Raps.
Popeye Jones was extremely popular with the fans here in Toronto, while not even being a star player...just a solid journeyman with loads of charisma. Seth looks like a confident kid, I think he's at the very least, just as marketable as Nate Mac...not that this should really matter to a franchise like ours when making the decision, at least I hope not

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01-27-2013, 01:19 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
Popeye Jones was extremely popular with the fans here in Toronto, while not even being a star player...just a solid journeyman with loads of charisma. Seth looks like a confident kid, I think he's at the very least, just as marketable as Nate Mac...not that this should really matter to a franchise like ours when making the decision, at least I hope not
We would be marketable if we drafted another Aki Berg. Teams like Columbus and Tampa draft a guy based on this, because they need to sell themselves.

We aren't that kind of franchise.

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01-27-2013, 01:19 PM
  #293
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.....
Jones prospects come a long once a decade and we will pass on him to pick a supposed need?
In this current NHL I see Chara, Pronger and Weber as the best of their generation. I think of them when you say 'once in a decade' (even though they were all drafted within 10 years of each other).
I don't know if Jones can be as nasty as those guys, but I doubt that is his game.

A future top line of Phaneuf - Jones seems so damn dominant to me. I think Phaneuf needs talent with muscle do to his roving tendencies. I still see Phaneuf as a top 8-15(ish) D in the league, but his only lacking skill is elite IQ. Jones seems more cerebral and would likely compliment each other with what they have and don't have in skill. Jones seems only to lack the nasty demeanour I like in #1D. If those two were paired together, with one of Rielly or Gardiner on the second pairing, paired with Komi, or someone similar, that's a very formidable top 4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Listen my friend, I know a scout, yes know a scout.

That had Mackinnon at #1, big fan of his, still is, but even he has elevated Jones to #1 off of the Worlds, Prospects game and recent play of the 2.

And trust me he was VERY high on Mackinnon this year.
I don't doubt he's #1 on any list. I'm just saying we won't know who has it as Jones at 1 until the draft, and I don't think we will really ever know if the leafs have him at 1. I don't think they will be there.

I do believe it is close between the two though. It's hard to deny that when Jones only recently passed Mac on most lists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legendinblue View Post
Does Jones have a mean streak? If so, he could be Pronger 2.0
I haven't seen much of it, but not to his fault. Neidermeyer, Pietrangelo and Lidstrom didn't/don't have it. Hasn't hurt them.


Last edited by The Naz: 01-27-2013 at 01:26 PM.
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01-27-2013, 01:25 PM
  #294
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Even if the leafs were to draft with a need in mind, that could still include Jones. Last night and most of this early season has shown that we are getting desperate for another top line D, at least in the defensive aspect.

Rielly has all the offensive talent in the world, but I don't know if I'd ever want him out against a Malkin-Crosby tandem. Or Backstrom-Ovechkin, or Stamkos-St. Louis, etc, etc,...

Jones - Phaneuf, that sounds very good.

On the other hand, a real, 2way, top line talent for Kessel sounds amazing as well.

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01-27-2013, 01:26 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
We would be marketable if we drafted another Aki Berg. Teams like Columbus and Tampa draft a guy based on this, because they need to sell themselves.

We aren't that kind of franchise.
That was my point, I'd be highly disappointed if we drafted a player based on marketability...there is no point other than $$$

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01-27-2013, 01:28 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by The Naz View Post
Even if the leafs were to draft with a need in mind, that could still include Jones. Last night and most of this early season has shown that we are getting desperate for another top line D, at least in the defensive aspect.

Rielly has all the offensive talent in the world, but I don't know if I'd ever want him out against a Malkin-Crosby tandem. Or Backstrom-Ovechkin, or Stamkos-St. Louis, etc, etc,...

Jones - Phaneuf, that sounds very good.

On the other hand, a real, 2way, top line talent for Kessel sounds amazing as well.
A potential Jones - Rielly pairing is what has me salivating. I don't think Rielly's size will be an issue paired with a guy like Jones.

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01-27-2013, 01:31 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
A potential Jones - Rielly pairing is what has me salivating. I don't think Rielly's size will be an issue paired with a guy like Jones.
Your last sentence is also a reason others look at a guy like Barkov or Monahan to play with Kessel. Their size and ability with the puck opens up space in crucial areas that would allow Phil to roam in the slot without worry, and would open up space for him to not play on the perimeter.

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01-27-2013, 01:49 PM
  #298
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In this current NHL I see Chara, Pronger and Weber as the best of their generation. I think of them when you say 'once in a decade' (even though they were all drafted within 10 years of each other).
I don't know if Jones can be as nasty as those guys, but I doubt that is his game.

A future top line of Phaneuf - Jones seems so damn dominant to me. I think Phaneuf needs talent with muscle do to his roving tendencies. I still see Phaneuf as a top 8-15(ish) D in the league, but his only lacking skill is elite IQ. Jones seems more cerebral and would likely compliment each other with what they have and don't have in skill. Jones seems only to lack the nasty demeanour I like in #1D. If those two were paired together, with one of Rielly or Gardiner on the second pairing, paired with Komi, or someone similar, that's a very formidable top 4.



I don't doubt he's #1 on any list. I'm just saying we won't know who has it as Jones at 1 until the draft, and I don't think we will really ever know if the leafs have him at 1. I don't think they will be there.

I do believe it is close between the two though. It's hard to deny that when Jones only recently passed Mac on most lists.



I haven't seen much of it, but not to his fault. Neidermeyer, Pietrangelo and Lidstrom didn't/don't have it. Hasn't hurt them.
The only way now Mackinnon passes Jones on pro scouts lists is he if he plays lights out the rest of the way, he is currently tied with Drouin in points on Halifax, so it's even reasonable to surmise the gap has closed with him and Drouin for #2.

I am sure all 3 are very good to great prospects, but Jones stands out even in a draft class as deep as this one. He has passed every test this year thus far, he and Mac were the consensus 1-2 picks when the season began and Jones has separted himself from Mackinnon, with half a year to go.

I do appreciate your post, at this moment of time. So the rest is up to Mackinnon to see if he can get #1 back in 3+ months of the season left.

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01-27-2013, 01:53 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
A potential Jones - Rielly pairing is what has me salivating. I don't think Rielly's size will be an issue paired with a guy like Jones.
Heck, Jones will make Dion better, maybe not at the start of the year but he will be miles ahead of Kostka by the end of his rookie year. Rielly in time can be moved up to the #1 pairing if Dion is or is not still a Leaf. Percy, Nilsson, Finn and hopefully a better Gardiner than this year can fill out the bottom 4 spots. Then that day we will be a much better team.

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01-27-2013, 02:00 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
He's not the best prospect since Crosby though. Stamkos and Tavares the same amount of press(especially Tavares) you could even make a case for Hall who was big contributor in his team winning two Memorial cups.

The whole Crosby romanticisation of Mackinnon is because they both are from the same town and went to the same prep school. There completely different as players and people. Comparing him to possibly the best player of the current generation is unfair to Mackinnon IMO.

But I really couldn't care less about Jones or Mackinnon's marketability in Toronto it was another poster who brought it up. But if you're talking about pure marketability of both the players; Jones IMO has more, Potentially a great deal more.
Agreed, though Mackinnon is a very good prospect, I don't get the same vibe of Crosby/Tavares/Stamkos. Certainly not Crosby. The chatter I am getting is it is closer to a Seguin/Hall hype, I agree there is a romanticism of the Coal Harbour/Halifax connection but this is where it ends. Crosby is a generational player, one of the kind. A little Unfair to label any prospect as the second coming of him no matter how intriguing it may be. Saying that if we drafted Nat, I would not complain one bit, just not before Jones.

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