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12'/13' Draft Thread: Something, Something... SETH JONES!

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01-27-2013, 10:55 PM
  #376
LolungoReboundo
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Spott on. No pun intended.
haha that was a rather good use of words. I always tell my brother as a joke that we should've kept our picks (not that I don't like kessel in fact when he's on he's probably unstoppable) and drafted huberdeau, bottomed out this year and grabbed drouin then maybe an erne, mantha or duclair and recreate Buffalo's french connection just to p off Montreal Media hahahahah but tbh the way I've played sports (football, rugby, soccer, basketball and hockey) its always been hustle, determination, defense first mentality that's won. People may find it boring when they play your team because they're only shooting 10 times a game but I promise that when youre shooting 40 times and they're shooting 10 you won't be worried about excitement......That's why I like Monahan and players as such, of course you need scorers and game breakers like kessel, p.kane, etc...but you need guys that'll keep those dancing fairies in line when the going gets tough. That's why I also like JT Compher in this draft the kid is a two way force has great work ethic from what I've seen and has some raw untapped offensive potential.

I guess its a Toronto thing with the workman mentality haha

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01-27-2013, 10:59 PM
  #377
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Also interactif what are your thoughts on the following guys: Pullock, Hagg, morrissey, Lazar, Gauthier and Dano

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01-27-2013, 11:04 PM
  #378
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Also interactif what are your thoughts on the following guys: Pullock, Hagg, morrissey, Lazar, Gauthier and Dano
High on Pulock, been hurt for the past month, and before that. Really he is going to slide due to this, think he might be a steal if he slides to 15. Scratch that I know this.

High IQ player, skating is not as bad as some will misreport, but again this is a smart positional player that is in position so he doesn't need to rely on Rielly speed, and as we have seen with good skaters they get beaten one on one.

Big shot and smart passer. Wants to be a Leaf, have to love that.

He will be a big positive to the special teams.

I'm hitting the hay early, will continue another nite.

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01-27-2013, 11:06 PM
  #379
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High on Pulock, been hurt for the past month, and before that. Really he is going to slide due to this, think he might be a steal if he slides to 15. Scratch that I know this.

High IQ player, skating is not as bad as some will misreport, but again this is a smart positional player that is in position so he doesn't need to rely on Rielly speed, and as we have seen with good skaters they get beaten one on one.

Big shot and smart passer. Wants to be a Leaf, have to love that.

He will be a big positive to the special teams.

I'm hitting the hay early, will continue another nite.
Sounds like a Weber without the mean streak...anyways thanks for the opinions

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01-27-2013, 11:07 PM
  #380
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I think the Leafs need to think long term now.

If we're not good by our 100th season...it will be really shameful.

The last drafted star by this team was Wendel Clark. In fact that's our only 1st overall pick. This city will be abuzz if we can draft and develop some stars and ice a Stanley Cup contending team by 2017.

Jones or MacKinnon would do wonders for this team.

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01-27-2013, 11:11 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
He wouldn't sign with us, I edited to trade him. Preferable Minny for Granlund+, and place him on Mackinnon's line on RW, whoever is better at C plays it while other plays RW, and move Kadri up.
I think he more than likely signs with us though, and people seem to forget how young the guy is. He is definitely a part of our future plans. I know you were just blowing it up for fun though.

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01-28-2013, 03:04 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
I think the Leafs need to think long term now.

If we're not good by our 100th season...it will be really shameful.

The last drafted star by this team was Wendel Clark. In fact that's our only 1st overall pick. This city will be abuzz if we can draft and develop some stars and ice a Stanley Cup contending team by 2017.

Jones or MacKinnon would do wonders for this team.
You want either of those two you'll need to trade away Kessel (which I'm actually totally cool with).

Take Kessel off this team with Lupol already missing and your staring at one of the top 2 picks because this team would be wretched.

Get back some good young assets for Kessel.
Tank hard the rest of the season playing tons of youth (Draft top 2).
Make a strong push for one of Getzlaf or Perry in the offseason.

Thats what I would do if I was Nonis.

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01-28-2013, 12:49 PM
  #383
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Man, I don't post for the weekend and I miss like 5 pages of stuff. Figures that it picks up when I'm not paying attention lol. I'm not going to quote people but I'm still going comment on a few of the conversations that have been happening. Bear with me.

One, defense is clearly an issue right now. When we have Mike f***ing Kostka playing more minutes a game then Shea Weber, your defense isn't exactly stellar. Phaneuf is a top line guy but he's being leaned on way to much. You can't play him 30 minutes a night with a 27 year old rookie and expect him to perfect in every game. Gunnarson is great and solid but he needs to be used correctly. He's not a top line guy either. He's solid with Phaneuf but he's going to be better used on the 2nd pairing or even third pairing. Gardiner is still only in his second season and developing. High upside and impressive play last year but he's going to need time still. Rielly is high potential, but he's not even in the NHL. So yeah, a dman can't hurt.

Why does this matter for a draft thread? Well Jones has clearly seperated himself from the pack. It seems almost...unbelievable with how long MacKinnon has been number 1. But its just because Jones has been damn impressive (minus his first few WJC games). So it shouldn't be an issue at all if we had the option to take him. We should.

However this is because he is the BPA. Not because we need a dman. BPA still reigns supreme. I will not take a dman because we need one. I will take the BPA player every time. Jones is the BPA for this draft but then it becomes a slew of forwards. The next dman taken will very likely be late top 10 or even outside the top 10.

As it stands now, MacKinnon, Drouin, Barkov, Monahan, Lindholm should all go before a dman does. And very likely Nichuskin (he should go but if the Russian factor drops him, it will be a travesty). Even Shinkaruk could go before a dman does. After that it's going to be a fight between Ristolainen, Zadorov (who is either top 10 in some lists or between 15-20ish), Pulock (I'm still not a huge fan) and Nurse.

My main point, BPA should be what we use. Not need (never, ever draft by team need. Or very rarely. As in if player A and player B are judged to be identical or highly similar value), not attitude (this can come into play if a team believes a players attitude will affect said player enough to push him above or below another player. But not nearly the issue some people make it out to be). BPA.

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01-28-2013, 12:59 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by TheFinnishKulemin View Post
Man, I don't post for the weekend and I miss like 5 pages of stuff. Figures that it picks up when I'm not paying attention lol. I'm not going to quote people but I'm still going comment on a few of the conversations that have been happening. Bear with me.

One, defense is clearly an issue right now. When we have Mike f***ing Kostka playing more minutes a game then Shea Weber, your defense isn't exactly stellar. Phaneuf is a top line guy but he's being leaned on way to much. You can't play him 30 minutes a night with a 27 year old rookie and expect him to perfect in every game. Gunnarson is great and solid but he needs to be used correctly. He's not a top line guy either. He's solid with Phaneuf but he's going to be better used on the 2nd pairing or even third pairing. Gardiner is still only in his second season and developing. High upside and impressive play last year but he's going to need time still. Rielly is high potential, but he's not even in the NHL. So yeah, a dman can't hurt.

Why does this matter for a draft thread? Well Jones has clearly seperated himself from the pack. It seems almost...unbelievable with how long MacKinnon has been number 1. But its just because Jones has been damn impressive (minus his first few WJC games). So it shouldn't be an issue at all if we had the option to take him. We should.

However this is because he is the BPA. Not because we need a dman. BPA still reigns supreme. I will not take a dman because we need one. I will take the BPA player every time. Jones is the BPA for this draft but then it becomes a slew of forwards. The next dman taken will very likely be late top 10 or even outside the top 10.

As it stands now, MacKinnon, Drouin, Barkov, Monahan, Lindholm should all go before a dman does. And very likely Nichuskin (he should go but if the Russian factor drops him, it will be a travesty). Even Shinkaruk could go before a dman does. After that it's going to be a fight between Ristolainen, Zadorov (who is either top 10 in some lists or between 15-20ish), Pulock (I'm still not a huge fan) and Nurse.

My main point, BPA should be what we use. Not need (never, ever draft by team need. Or very rarely. As in if player A and player B are judged to be identical or highly similar value), not attitude (this can come into play if a team believes a players attitude will affect said player enough to push him above or below another player. But not nearly the issue some people make it out to be). BPA.
I haven't seen either play a whole lot, but would you be a little bit concerned about taking a Defenseman as 1st overall given how Erik Johnson and Victor Hedman have turned out? It seems like of the top 3 picks, the forwards turn out a lot better than the defense do. Aside from Doughty that is...

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01-28-2013, 01:00 PM
  #385
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Leafs proved to us they will go BPA over positional need when they drafted Rielly over Grigs and Forsberg. I figured we wouldn't take Rielly because he was too similar in style to Gardiner, and coming off a knee injury. Next time I won't dismiss players from our radar because we already have a similar player/position covered.

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01-28-2013, 01:06 PM
  #386
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Leafs proved to us they will go BPA over positional need when they drafted Rielly over Grigs and Forsberg. I figured we wouldn't take Rielly because he was too similar in style to Gardiner, and coming off a knee injury. Next time I won't dismiss players from our radar because we already have a similar player/position covered.
IMO, our need on d>o. We didn't really have a problem scoring last year, we had a problem keeping it out of the net, a large part due to having the worst goaltending in the league.

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01-28-2013, 01:16 PM
  #387
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IMO, our need on d>o. We didn't really have a problem scoring last year, we had a problem keeping it out of the net, a large part due to having the worst goaltending in the league.
Wouldn't that make our need at G > D ?

Also, where's the scoring and leadership up front this year?
Outside of Grabo, Kadri, and JVR, we're hurting... BAD.

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01-28-2013, 01:58 PM
  #388
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I haven't seen either play a whole lot, but would you be a little bit concerned about taking a Defenseman as 1st overall given how Erik Johnson and Victor Hedman have turned out? It seems like of the top 3 picks, the forwards turn out a lot better than the defense do. Aside from Doughty that is...
Not really no. It doesn't really make sense to use history to prove why Jones will be bad. The biggest reason why is that the history of those players don't have any bearing on Jones. They don't affect him in any way. As much as I don't like agreeing with Interactif or Epictus (just because of the near arrogant air of superiority they use when posting. They are both very knowledgeable however) they both are right on this.

While history is a good thing to look at and not repeat certain mistakes, it's very hard for me to say that the past examples of Johnson and Hedman mean Jones will be a bust like them. It just doesn't make much sense to do so. Yes those players didn't turn out the way some expected but that hardly means Jones won't. Because development differs so much between players, its very hard to judge a player by his draft status. It's one of the reasons I can't stand using draft pedigree as a point of comparison between players. Yes it can be an indicator of a player's expected upside, but it doesn't lock a player into a development path because of the position they were drafted in. A late round pick isn't a guaranteed bust or fourth line player because of the place they were drafted in. The very same, a player picked 7th overall won't make the NHL in 2 years because a past 7th overall pick did so.

In the very same reasoning, Jones isn't guaranteed to turn out worse than Jones long-term like Johnson and Hedman.

Also Johnson isn't the best example. I know some people continue to debate this (and for the life of me I cannot figure out why they wouldn't take this into account), but Johnson missed an entire season of development which DID set him back and likely limit his future upside. Yes some players can come back from certain injuries like that and be fine, but not everyone can. Johnson couldn't.

Hedman is also still only 22. He could very well become the player many thought he would in a few years. He could not. But he's got lots of time still.

I still think we desperately need a top line center. HAving a guy who drive possesion will do wonders for this team. But Jones would also help a lot.

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01-28-2013, 02:16 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by TheFinnishKulemin View Post
Not really no. It doesn't really make sense to use history to prove why Jones will be bad. The biggest reason why is that the history of those players don't have any bearing on Jones. They don't affect him in any way. As much as I don't like agreeing with Interactif or Epictus (just because of the near arrogant air of superiority they use when posting. They are both very knowledgeable however) they both are right on this.

While history is a good thing to look at and not repeat certain mistakes, it's very hard for me to say that the past examples of Johnson and Hedman mean Jones will be a bust like them. It just doesn't make much sense to do so. Yes those players didn't turn out the way some expected but that hardly means Jones won't. Because development differs so much between players, its very hard to judge a player by his draft status. It's one of the reasons I can't stand using draft pedigree as a point of comparison between players. Yes it can be an indicator of a player's expected upside, but it doesn't lock a player into a development path because of the position they were drafted in. A late round pick isn't a guaranteed bust or fourth line player because of the place they were drafted in. The very same, a player picked 7th overall won't make the NHL in 2 years because a past 7th overall pick did so.

In the very same reasoning, Jones isn't guaranteed to turn out worse than Jones long-term like Johnson and Hedman.

Also Johnson isn't the best example. I know some people continue to debate this (and for the life of me I cannot figure out why they wouldn't take this into account), but Johnson missed an entire season of development which DID set him back and likely limit his future upside. Yes some players can come back from certain injuries like that and be fine, but not everyone can. Johnson couldn't.

Hedman is also still only 22. He could very well become the player many thought he would in a few years. He could not. But he's got lots of time still.

I still think we desperately need a top line center. HAving a guy who drive possesion will do wonders for this team. But Jones would also help a lot.
First I'd like to say great points and you were much more convincing than the other two..

But, "Jones would also help a lot." Part of me thinks even you know just how necessary Mackinnon is if we get the first pick. Jones would be great, but is he a luxury? I'm not trying to sound ignorant of Jones as a player, he's the best d prospect I've seen since Doughty. I just have a hard time following the trend of D over Forward. There really isn't a question that Mackinnon is a future #1 C and seeing just how hard it's been to acquire one for the past 5 years vs acquiring capable D.. I just can't buy it.

You can definitely argue that we need D just as badly as forwards, and thus justifying Jones.. But with all these promising back end prospects we've been able to gather all while not seeing one capable #1 C.. I just don't think we could pass on the opportunity if it presents itself.

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01-28-2013, 02:20 PM
  #390
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A definitely #1 Center prospect, Aleksander Barkov, will be playing on the 31st, in a pro game against Jokerit.

I'll try to get a link and post it here for those of you who haven't seen him to watch.

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01-28-2013, 02:33 PM
  #391
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First I'd like to say great points and you were much more convincing than the other two..

But, "Jones would also help a lot." Part of me thinks even you know just how necessary Mackinnon is if we get the first pick. Jones would be great, but is he a luxury? I'm not trying to sound ignorant of Jones as a player, he's the best d prospect I've seen since Doughty. I just have a hard time following the trend of D over Forward. There really isn't a question that Mackinnon is a future #1 C and seeing just how hard it's been to acquire one for the past 5 years vs acquiring capable D.. I just can't buy it.

You can definitely argue that we need D just as badly as forwards, and thus justifying Jones.. But with all these promising back end prospects we've been able to gather all while not seeing one capable #1 C.. I just don't think we could pass on the opportunity if it presents itself.
Everything I have ever learned about first overall pick battles and draft tendencies is when its this damn close, just take the forward. That just what I feel like is the right move here.

And driving possession is a huge concern for us, that much I couldnt agree with more.

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01-28-2013, 02:37 PM
  #392
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Wouldn't that make our need at G > D ?

Also, where's the scoring and leadership up front this year?
Outside of Grabo, Kadri, and JVR, we're hurting... BAD.
Yeah it prob would, but I would say the order was something like g>>>>d>o. I think drafting Rielly could have switched that order in the near future.

The five games this year, we've had those three. But last year we had Kessel and Lupol. Kessel was also top 10 in scoring across the league. Lupol and Grabo provide leadership, all five of them can score. Those five players along with one more winger could make up a lot better of an offense than people give them credit for. Sure we don't have a #1 center. But a team with an offense that has six players that can all score (but aren't in the top 10 of their respective position) could be just as dynamic as an offense with three players (that are top 10).

If we draft one of Barkov, Monahan, Lindholm or Drouin this summer our offense and defense could be solid. We would still have a very questionable goaltending situation, which I am wondering if a veteran guy like Luongo may be able to fill.

I mean look:

Lupol-Kadri-Kessel
JvR-Grabo-Barkov/Drouin (two I want)

Rielly-Phaneuf
Gunner-Gard

Luongo

That's a young core with veteran guys mixed in that can provide the leadership the young guys need. The offense could have potential to be dynamic (1A-1B lines) and the defense could have the 1-4 spot filled and we would have a solid starter.

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01-28-2013, 02:46 PM
  #393
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Not really no. It doesn't really make sense to use history to prove why Jones will be bad. The biggest reason why is that the history of those players don't have any bearing on Jones. They don't affect him in any way. As much as I don't like agreeing with Interactif or Epictus (just because of the near arrogant air of superiority they use when posting. They are both very knowledgeable however) they both are right on this.

While history is a good thing to look at and not repeat certain mistakes, it's very hard for me to say that the past examples of Johnson and Hedman mean Jones will be a bust like them. It just doesn't make much sense to do so. Yes those players didn't turn out the way some expected but that hardly means Jones won't. Because development differs so much between players, its very hard to judge a player by his draft status. It's one of the reasons I can't stand using draft pedigree as a point of comparison between players. Yes it can be an indicator of a player's expected upside, but it doesn't lock a player into a development path because of the position they were drafted in. A late round pick isn't a guaranteed bust or fourth line player because of the place they were drafted in. The very same, a player picked 7th overall won't make the NHL in 2 years because a past 7th overall pick did so.

In the very same reasoning, Jones isn't guaranteed to turn out worse than Jones long-term like Johnson and Hedman.

Also Johnson isn't the best example. I know some people continue to debate this (and for the life of me I cannot figure out why they wouldn't take this into account), but Johnson missed an entire season of development which DID set him back and likely limit his future upside. Yes some players can come back from certain injuries like that and be fine, but not everyone can. Johnson couldn't.

Hedman is also still only 22. He could very well become the player many thought he would in a few years. He could not. But he's got lots of time still.

I still think we desperately need a top line center. HAving a guy who drive possesion will do wonders for this team. But Jones would also help a lot.

If Jones turns out to be as good as people say he will be, then he would certainly be worthy of the 1st overall pick. There are not a lot of big, smooth skating D out there.

However, you could argue that defense is harder to project to the pro level than offense, since there is more of a thinking game involved and less instinct. Many of the top defensive prospects have come from the mid-late first round recently, while the top centers drafted have been almost a sure bet. Personally I would go with MacKinnon.

It would be horrible to finally get #1 and then have it be the only bust in the last decade. I'm not saying Jones will be a bust, just that it would be fitting for it to happen to the Leafs.

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01-28-2013, 04:24 PM
  #394
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draft Max Domi by ANY MEANS NECESSARY!!!!!


max_domi Retweet if your watching the leafs game tonight! #leafs #pens 4 days ago reply retweet favorite

max_domi Leafs game with the boys... @hughesy_14 @bwelych instagr.am/p/Uw9heLIVsz/

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01-28-2013, 04:39 PM
  #395
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Everything I have ever learned about first overall pick battles and draft tendencies is when its this damn close, just take the forward. That just what I feel like is the right move here.

And driving possession is a huge concern for us, that much I couldnt agree with more.
My new top 3 as of today are:

1. Jones (clear #1)
2. Drouin
3. Mackinnon

I moved Drouin ahead of Mac, every game I have watched with these 2 in it, he has outshone Mackinnon. I am starting to feel Mackinnon has stagnated whereas Jones and Drouin have progressed and moved passed him.

For all the hyperbole of Drouin's lack of size by really only one poster, he is essentially the same size of Mackinnon.

I am uneasy having Mackinnon play a physical style against men, Crosby has been hurt, and even going back to the Leafs days Clark was often injuried, little men that play big is a risky proposition. Admire it, but Drouin to me is the safer and better pick.

Disclaimer-I reserve the right to amend my picks if performances warrant it at anytime before the draft.

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01-28-2013, 04:50 PM
  #396
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Weren't you just find with Gemel Smith last year, for the same reasons you're scared of MacKinnon this year?

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01-28-2013, 04:51 PM
  #397
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If Jones turns out to be as good as people say he will be, then he would certainly be worthy of the 1st overall pick. There are not a lot of big, smooth skating D out there.

However, you could argue that defense is harder to project to the pro level than offense, since there is more of a thinking game involved and less instinct. Many of the top defensive prospects have come from the mid-late first round recently, while the top centers drafted have been almost a sure bet. Personally I would go with MacKinnon.

It would be horrible to finally get #1 and then have it be the only bust in the last decade. I'm not saying Jones will be a bust, just that it would be fitting for it to happen to the Leafs.
It's unlikely IMO. Scouting has changed so much in the last twenty years that I think it would be highly unlikely that the number 1 overall pick busts.

My thinking is this. We need a number 1 center. We need someone to help Phaneuf. Which one is more of a need? I'm not sure but many people seem to think number one center, so I'll go with that.

At the end of the day the issue is this to me. You don't pass on a top 20 player for a top 30 player because the top 30 player fits a bigger need. The top 20 player will ultimately have more of an impact for you than the top 30 player will. That goes either way. If Jones is the BPA as judged by the Leaf scouts, then Jones is the player you take. If MacKinnon is the BPA as judged by them, you go with MacKinnon.

I argued before for taking MacKinnon first. That was because I thought he was the BPA (and argued for taking Barkov over Jones for the same reason). That is no longer the case in my mind.

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01-28-2013, 04:53 PM
  #398
Drew311
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Originally Posted by bobbyflex View Post
draft Max Domi by ANY MEANS NECESSARY!!!!!


max_domi Retweet if your watching the leafs game tonight! #leafs #pens 4 days ago reply retweet favorite

max_domi Leafs game with the boys... @hughesy_14 @bwelych instagr.am/p/Uw9heLIVsz/
I just have a feeling the Leafs will draft Domi with an additional 1st they get at the trade deadline. I think Nonis is going to load up this draft if we're a top ten pick again, and try to make his mark in his first Leafs draft running the show.

I'd be extremely happy with getting Monahan/Lindholm and Domi in the first round.


Last edited by Drew311: 01-28-2013 at 04:59 PM.
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01-28-2013, 04:56 PM
  #399
Interactif
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Weren't you just find with Gemel Smith last year, for the same reasons you're scared of MacKinnon this year?
Gemel Smith was a 4th rounder, big difference, not hard to know the difference in risk for most. 1-2 overall, the other 104th overall.

BTW, have you thought of an out yet, for expressing concern for Drouin's lack of size while pumping Mackinnon's tires?

Incase you didn't know by now, They are the same size.

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01-28-2013, 05:05 PM
  #400
ErnieLeafs
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Gemel Smith was a 4th rounder, big difference, not hard to know the difference in risk for most. 1-2 overall, the other 104th overall.

BTW, have you thought of an out yet, for expressing concern for Drouin's lack of size while pumping Mackinnon's tires?

Incase you didn't know by now, They are the same size.
One's body is more developed and stronger, WAYYYYY stronger, and has thus far stood the rigors of physical play quite well.

The other still has the body and strength of a 14yr old. Big difference.

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