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12'/13' Draft Thread: Something, Something... SETH JONES!

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Old
02-04-2013, 03:20 PM
  #751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
I think that everyone understands that, but what he's saying is that bloodlines aren't too significant when determining a players draft pedigree, if they were, you'd draft Jared Staal or Chris Bourque in the 2nd round...

Also Humans /=/ Horses ??
True.

There are a lot of examples of children not living up to the hype their name brought them.

Look at Deion Sanders' kid. Sure, he's got some talent, but he probably won't play in the NFL, and is about a fifth the athlete his old man is/was/ Same with Ray Lewis' son. Neither are on a level of talent even CLOSE to their parents at that age.

Bloodlines don't mean a heck of a lot. The children/family of former pros are also offered more opportunity to succeed, given that their parents can provide that to them.

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02-04-2013, 03:25 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
I think that everyone understands that, but what he's saying is that bloodlines aren't too significant when determining a players draft pedigree, if they were, you'd draft Jared Staal or Chris Bourque in the 2nd round...

Also Humans /=/ Horses ??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I know scouts that do place an emphasis on bloodlines, BTW no one was comparing horses to humans but to ignore scouts ignore a player's lineage is not correct, it is a factor. In the end, The kid still has to be able to play, we know the Sutter name carries weight when they are up for the draft. Even when they are not as talented as other players drafted after them.
I'm not ignoring that.

You also implied a relation between Horses and Humans whether you realize it or not.

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02-04-2013, 03:54 PM
  #753
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Figures:

Quote:
Rounding out the Top 5 is Finnish forward Aleksander Barkov at No. 3 and Russian winger Valeri Nichushkin, who claims No. 5.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=415242

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=49649

Centers:

RKPlayerLastTeamDOBPos.SHt/WtGPGAPts+/-
2Nathan MacKinnon2Halifax (QMJHL)Sep. 1/95CR6'0/1823927406736
3Aleksander Barkov3Tappara (FIN)Sep. 2/95CL6'2/2054319214015
6Sean Monahan6Ottawa (OHL)Oct. 12/94CL6'2/18641183654-10
7Elias Lindholm8Brynas (SWE)Dec. 2/94CR5'11/1814271724-3
12Hunter Shinkaruk12Medicine Hat (WHL)Oct. 13/94C/RWL5'11/17448303363-7
14Max Domi13London (OHL)Mar. 2/95C/LWL5'9/1934828366426
18Alexander Wennberg19Djurgardens (SWE)Sep. 22/95CL6'1/1743813142711
19Frederik Gauthier20Rimouski (QMJHL)Apr. 26/95CL6'5/2104517355224
21Morgan Klimchuk22Regina (WHL)Mar. 2/95C/LWL5'11/18053263157-3
22Bo Horvat30London (OHL)May 4/95C/LWL6'0/200512323464
24Curtis Lazar27Edmonton (WHL)Feb. 2/95CR5'11/1935427144121
27JT Compher24USNTDP (USHL)Apr. 8/95CR5'11/1842561521-
29Ryan Hartman29Plymouth (OHL)Sep. 20/94C/RWR5'11/1874120234311
31Nicolas Petan43Portland (WHL)Mar. 22/95CL5'9/1635336579355
32Pavel Buchnevich35Cheropovets (KHL)Apr. 17/95C/LWL6'1/161215813-3
34Laurent Dauphin53Chicoutimi (QMJHL)Mar. 26/95CL6'0/167472325483
35Ryan Fitzgerald32Valley Jr. (EJHL)Oct. 19/94CL5'9/16826141630-3
37Connor Hurley38Edina High (USHSW)Sep. 15/95CL6'1/17221142640-
48Justin Bailey68Kitchener (OHL)Jul. 1/95C/RWR6'3/1944015132821
49Ryan Kujawinski36Kingston (OHL)Mar. 30/95C/LWL6'1/20350132437-5
50Marc-Oliver Roy47Blainville (QMJHL)Nov. 5/94C/LWL6'0/1754821355614
51Marko Dano42Sloven Bratislava (KHL)Nov. 30/94CL5'11/183353473
62Taylor Cammarata61Waterloo (USHL)May 13/95C/LWL5'7/1563626366224
65John Hayden72USNTDP (USHL)Feb. 14/95CR6'2/2202671421-
67William Carrier56Cape Breton (QMJHL)Dec. 20/94C/LWL6'2/19834162642-14
73Greg Chase62Calgary (WHL)Jan. 1/95CR6'0/195511420345

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Old
02-04-2013, 05:09 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
I'm not ignoring that.

You also implied a relation between Horses and Humans whether you realize it or not.
Regardless, it was more of analogy, and I think a good one. I don't know what to tell you guys but scouts do consider pedigree. One guy told me it tells him a lot about a prospect when he comes from a good family.

Is it the only thing that determines the value of a prospect, obcourse not, but it isn't a bad thing and it does carry weight in the final process even if some here discount it, but in the end a kid's still got to be able to play.

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02-04-2013, 05:23 PM
  #755
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Would Nichuskin come to NA if he's drafted top 10?

I hope we can draft him...have him stay in the KHL a year or two like Tarasenko and then let him come over when he's a bit older, more developed.

The chances of the Leafs drafting a Russian that high is probably zero though.

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02-04-2013, 05:24 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Would Nichuskin come to NA if he's drafted top high?

I hope we can draft him...have him stay in the KHL a year or two like Tarasenko and then let him come over when he's a bit older, more developed.

The chances of the Leafs drafting a Russian that high is probably zero though.
Leafs have a lot of money to pay a transfer fee, I don't see why he wouldn't.

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02-04-2013, 05:46 PM
  #757
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I hope Nonis doesn't disregard or ignore the European, in particular the Russian players even if there is concern about fleeing to the KHL. Toronto is an attractive destination regardless and the team should not have any worries retaining players.

If Nichuskin is the BPA on the board, then I hope he's the guy we go for. Still quite a way to go for the draft and the draft position can change.

I've been bigging up Zach Fucale (G) Halifax from the start of the season and he's just moved up to number 10 overall on Button's latest rankings.

I think he's a better prospect than Malcolm Subban and I think a team is going to be getting a blue chip in net with this guy.

I'm hoping the Leafs recognize that and draft this kid!

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02-04-2013, 06:01 PM
  #758
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I still feel strongly the Leafs should deal Kessel at draft to a team drafting 3/4th over all for the pick and a prospect

Draft Barkov our # 1 C FOR THE NEXT 15 YEARS

with our pick select Shinkaruk or Valeri Nichuskin replacing Kessel's loss..

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02-04-2013, 06:50 PM
  #759
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Originally Posted by Hawaiinleaf View Post
I still feel strongly the Leafs should deal Kessel at draft to a team drafting 3/4th over all for the pick and a prospect

Draft Barkov our # 1 C FOR THE NEXT 15 YEARS

with our pick select Shinkaruk or Valeri Nichuskin replacing Kessel's loss..
Mantha would be a better replacement, as would Erne, for their styles of play.

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02-04-2013, 07:11 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Mantha would be a better replacement, as would Erne, for their styles of play.
I'd prefer Nichushkin over either Mantah/Erne to TBH. Getting him and Barkov would be amazing.

Trading Kessel doesn't exactly thrill me though...

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02-04-2013, 07:19 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Regardless, it was more of analogy, and I think a good one. I don't know what to tell you guys but scouts do consider pedigree. One guy told me it tells him a lot about a prospect when he comes from a good family.

Is it the only thing that determines the value of a prospect, obcourse not, but it isn't a bad thing and it does carry weight in the final process even if some here discount it, but in the end a kid's still got to be able to play.
I just don't see why it carries weight.

I actually disagree that its a good one. I honestly don't see why it holds so much weight. It's a crock, and a cop-out in my opinion, for scouts to use "pedigree" to describe why a player should be drafted.

Why should it matter that Jones' dad is Popeye Jones? Great, he used to be an athlete and was probably able to add a few points here and there about things. But he never played basketball. How does that transfer over?

Staal brothers are a great example. Sure,three of them played great but Jared got drafted ENTIRELY too high because of "pedigree" being used.

Can it be a bonus in a player? Yeah why not. But it should not hold much weight IMO.

A good family is way to hard to determine and to justifiably use to put one player over another. Appearances are easy to be just that. And a good family doesn't determine a players worth. It's stupid and bad scouting. Scouts were concerned about Colborne's dedication to the sport because his parents were rich? Why? Did his game or the way he approached it say that about him?

It's bad scouting and bad form to do that. I don't get it. I never will. And I refuse to give proper weight to it in scouting. And I'm calling out scouts that do so.

I'm much more concerned about a player's skill and attitude toward the game. Does he train hard? How does he take criticism? How does he act on the ice and with coaches and teammates? Does he display leadership skill?

It's basically a form of nepotism that has very little statistical proof of being a good thing to target in players.

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02-04-2013, 07:28 PM
  #762
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Finally, Nichushkin is getting the love from others that I was giving him a couple months ago

He might be listed at RW, but he can play centre. Either way, I'd gladly take him.

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02-04-2013, 08:02 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by leugangen View Post
Finally, Nichushkin is getting the love from others that I was giving him a couple months ago

He might be listed at RW, but he can play centre. Either way, I'd gladly take him.
I just don't see him as offensively adept as the other two, but I wouldn't have a problem if he was the pick.

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02-04-2013, 08:41 PM
  #764
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I just don't see him as offensively adept as the other two, but I wouldn't have a problem if he was the pick.
He's having a very similar season to Kuznetsov's first KHL season. Actually probably better.

I think his offensive game is fine. It's a little tunnel vision at time but I still think his potential is better than either of those two. Not that I don't like Mantha or Erne. Just think Nuchushkin's better.

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02-04-2013, 08:50 PM
  #765
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Originally Posted by TheFinnishKulemin View Post
I just don't see why it carries weight.
It doesn't. Nepotism has been discredited academically. It holds no necessary connection to performance in the business world, politics, and even professional sports.

It does, however, enable you a good network. By network, I mean get opportunities that "average" participants would not otherwise have unless they do 'X'. Parents are rich, know people, hire the best trainers, etc.

The value placed in work ethic will triumph any "pedigree".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Boucher View Post
If you don't think Monahan has grit then you haven't seen him play.

And while I realize Drouin and Gagner share soft hands, that hardly makes them good comparables. They see and play the game incredibly different.
My sentence was he has to rely on leadership and intangibles and possibly grit to overcompensate on a lack of talent. By "possibly grit", I am not rejecting the notion that it is not a part of his game; I am saying that he may have to rely on grit as well to live up to his draft status.

The Drouin and Gagner comparison is built on soft hands, elite vision, high hockey IQ, and the need for improvement on the rest of their games. They both have very similar scouting reports from Junior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by topched View Post
1) Jones is WAY more physical than Tyler Myers. Myers is rangy and uses his stick and body to move people off the puck, SJ punishes guys. Way tougher down low as well. Offensively maybe they have the same output, but thats where it ends.

2) Gaborik isn't even a C, he's a winger. Brutal comparison. What does "less cerebral in his finishing" mean? Are you trying to say he's "less creative?"... if so check out LM highlight reel.

3) Better and more polished Sam Gagner? So you mean like Claude Giroux? Or any of the countless other better versions of Sam Gagner? Thats like saying Henrik Ludqvist is a better more polished James Reimer. Whats the point of the comparison?

4) This one I can agree with.

5) This one I can agree with too. (although haven't seen much of him)

6) You can't compare Monahan to Cody Hodgson. Hodgson hasn't even hit his potential yet. I like Lecavalier as a comparison myself, Staal is similar. He's slightly smaller than both those guys, but lots of time to grow.
There is some serious comfusion going on in this post.

1) My comparisons involve player to player at the respective junior level. Your comparisons are junior player to how another player is performing as an NHL player. This will clearly show the Myers and Gagner comparison in a better light.

2) If you think Seth Jones will be physical, where he "punishes defenders" at the NHL-level, then you may need to change your assessment. His game is built on elite skating and his use of said skating to allow himself to impact the game both offensively and defensively. By his skating, he can jump into the rush and get back even while his opposition is counter-attacking. Not many players can do this.

3) Drouin has clearly established himself as an independent player from MacKinnon. Sam Gagner had major concerns about benefiting from Pat Kane. This is the difference, and why Drouin is the better Junior player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
I just don't see him as offensively adept as the other two, but I wouldn't have a problem if he was the pick.
I agree with this.

I still prefer Mantha, though. He is such a gifted scorer that I think he will be a solid NHL player, regardless of his perceived weaknesses that are keeping him from being higher in the draft.

The dude scores 3 goals in 5 minutes, but then coasts the rest of the game, and scouts view it as a negative against him.


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02-04-2013, 08:57 PM
  #766
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Yes!!

Best case scenario for tonight:

Dallas beats Colorado in OT
Phoenix beats Minnesota in OT
Edmonton beats Vancouver in OT
Anaheim beats San Jose in OT

[LIVE STREAMS OF TONIGHTS GAMES]

Draft order would be:

1. Calgary
2. Washington
3. Philadelphia
4. Florida
5. Los Angeles
6. Columbus
7. Buffalo
8. Winnipeg
9. Toronto
10. NY Rangers


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02-04-2013, 08:58 PM
  #767
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Lol losses are always a good night for this thread. Top 10 pick hopes are renewed

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02-04-2013, 09:53 PM
  #768
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I have a strange feeling Lindholm ends up a Leaf.

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02-04-2013, 09:57 PM
  #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFinnishKulemin View Post
I just don't see why it carries weight.

I actually disagree that its a good one. I honestly don't see why it holds so much weight. It's a crock, and a cop-out in my opinion, for scouts to use "pedigree" to describe why a player should be drafted.

Why should it matter that Jones' dad is Popeye Jones? Great, he used to be an athlete and was probably able to add a few points here and there about things. But he never played basketball. How does that transfer over?

Staal brothers are a great example. Sure,three of them played great but Jared got drafted ENTIRELY too high because of "pedigree" being used.

Can it be a bonus in a player? Yeah why not. But it should not hold much weight IMO.

A good family is way to hard to determine and to justifiably use to put one player over another. Appearances are easy to be just that. And a good family doesn't determine a players worth. It's stupid and bad scouting. Scouts were concerned about Colborne's dedication to the sport because his parents were rich? Why? Did his game or the way he approached it say that about him?

It's bad scouting and bad form to do that. I don't get it. I never will. And I refuse to give proper weight to it in scouting. And I'm calling out scouts that do so.

I'm much more concerned about a player's skill and attitude toward the game. Does he train hard? How does he take criticism? How does he act on the ice and with coaches and teammates? Does he display leadership skill?

It's basically a form of nepotism that has very little statistical proof of being a good thing to target in players.
Well I never said it was the only reason, but you said your peace, I said mine, We will agree to disagree on this one.

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02-04-2013, 10:00 PM
  #770
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Yeah, this thread is the place to go after losses. Instead of getting frustrated just keep updated on the interesting guys available in this draft.

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02-04-2013, 10:06 PM
  #771
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Barkov or bust!

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02-04-2013, 10:08 PM
  #772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
I have a strange feeling Lindholm ends up a Leaf.
Rather do whatever is needed to draft Seth Jones. This team needs smarter defenseman more than anything else.

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02-04-2013, 10:12 PM
  #773
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Originally Posted by OptimusForever View Post
Barkov or bust!
I'd like a guy with more charisma, a guy who could lead this team. We haven't had a leader since Sundin, Roberts, Tucker, Clark, Gilmour.

Barkov his play is somewhat sedate, I think this team needs a big dose of emotion. We are almost devoid of personality or passion. The present roster makes me sleepy with a few exceptions.

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02-04-2013, 10:15 PM
  #774
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I'd like a guy with more charisma, a guy who could lead this team. We haven't had a leader since Sundin, Roberts, Tucker, Clark, Gilmour.

Barkov his play is somewhat sedate, I think this team needs a big dose of emotion. We are almost devoid of personality or passion. The present roster makes me sleepy with a few exceptions.
He is a leader by example, like another big center we used to love.

Not to mention, personality and charisma don't win hockey games.

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02-04-2013, 10:17 PM
  #775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
He is a leader by example, like another big center we used to love.

Not to mention, personality and charisma don't win hockey games.
Emotion is a necessary component in hockey, teams that don't have it, usually don't do well.

In contrast to Barkov, Seth Jones is a leader by example, has charisma, is a leader in the dressing room, is confident bordering on cockiness, and is a winner. This is the leadership we need. A player that backs it all up by leading his team to a gold.

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