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Round 2, Vote 10 (HOH Top Goaltenders final round)

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01-25-2013, 04:53 PM
  #201
Canadiens1958
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To Clarify

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Okay, so Cheevers was better than the average WHA goalie; what exactly does that mean? The WHA wasn't exactly known for its defense and goaltending, right?

In 1973, Parent played on the worst defensive team in the WHA and had significantly better stats than any of his backups. (Cheevers had the best GAA in the league and stats significantly better than his no-name backup). It seems like 1973 was a legit great season for Cheevers, though it's hard to tell how great against WHA competition.
Philadelphia had the third worst defensive team in the WHA. Quebec and New York were weaker. Team was coached by Phil Watson, no concept of defensive hockey even though there was sufficient talent. Further complicated by the fact that the next paycheck was always an adventure.

Bob Whidden, the back-up in Cleveland was arguably the best back-up that season in the WHA.

Cleveland was an excellent team defensively with arguably the best overall center in Ron Buchanan.

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01-25-2013, 04:55 PM
  #202
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Philadelphia had the third worst defensive team in the WHA. Quebec and New York were weaker. Team was coached by Phil Watson, no concept of defensive hockey even though there was sufficient talent. Further complicated by the fact that the next paycheck was always an adventure.

Bob Whidden, the back-up in Cleveland was arguably the best back-up that season in the WHA.

Cleveland was an excellent team defensively with arguably the best overall center in Ron Buchanan.
Thanks. I really don't know anything about the non-elite teams in the WHA, but somebody had to start looking into Cheevers' record there.

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01-26-2013, 10:12 AM
  #203
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If anyone thinks Vezina shares is a useful metric, the following might be useful:

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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
I decided to add the all-star results from 68-69 to 80-81 to see what it would look like. The voting in those years was the same 5-3-1 format, the only difference was that those years the voters were writers instead of GMs.

playertimesshare
Martin Brodeur155.4072
Ken Dryden74.7817
Dominik Hasek114.7591
Patrick Roy174.6216
Tony Esposito124.1564
Ed Belfour112.5044
Bernie Parent92.2239
Tom Barrasso71.9833
Mike Liut71.8349
Ed Giacomin51.8291
Glenn Resch71.6855
Grant Fuhr81.5901
Rogie Vachon61.5778
Roberto Luongo71.5600
Tim Thomas31.5533
John Vanbiesbrouck91.5329
Henrik Lundqvist71.4933
Miikka Kiprusoff71.4333

Dryden's score is just ridiculous for a career as brief as his. Esposito's longevity of consistent high-level play was extraordinary. I'm actually surprised Parent didn't finish higher. It's unfortunate that Glenn Resch hit his peak before the Isles Cup dynasty, as it's caused some to overlook how good he was in the 70s.
Combining All Star and Vezina votes like this is kind of a perversion of the metric, but I think it's useful to look at. Just keep in mind that the more teams in the league, the more goalies there are to split shares. And, as always, competition matters.

Nonetheless, Mike Liut looks pretty impressive here.

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01-26-2013, 11:19 AM
  #204
EagleBelfour
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Mike Liut or Al Rollins? Any discussion between those two?

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01-26-2013, 04:48 PM
  #205
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I didn't get a PM telling us to vote, but according to the second post, we are well into the voting period, so I sent my vote in.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 01-26-2013 at 05:38 PM.
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01-26-2013, 10:56 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I didn't get a PM telling us to vote, but according to the second post, we are well into the voting period, so I sent my vote in.
PM's been sent. Votes are Rollins in now.

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01-26-2013, 10:57 PM
  #207
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PM's been sent. Votes are Rollins in now.
You're fired.

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01-26-2013, 11:07 PM
  #208
MXD
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Voted.
Really tough past #5.

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Old
01-27-2013, 12:53 AM
  #209
tarheelhockey
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This group is just such a mishmash to me, incredibly hard to compare at a number of levels. I'm not completely sure that any one of my 8 choices was truly in the correct position, but what are you gonna do?

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01-27-2013, 11:42 AM
  #210
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I haven't been tallying, only observing, but right now it looks like a dogfight between six guys for those final four spots.

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01-27-2013, 12:54 PM
  #211
Mike Farkas
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Voted, we wrote off Kiprusoff a little too soon...what's he have, like four top-5 Vezina finishes...he's been good in the playoffs (outstanding in 2004) but his teams have been pretty mediocre (outside of '04). But he has one good playoffs just like Thomas and Lundqvist, so hopefully he can live off of it even though it didn't just happen...

Kipper is a workhorse goalie for a team stuck in hockey limbo and has performed admirably pretty much every year he's been allowed to...more elite seasons than many of the guys left, but just didn't get talked about that much...a lot of one and two year wonders are up for vote, but a guy with a small handful got pushed aside. I wish I had had more time to make some cases in this thread, but I'm on a rush job right now with almost no time to spare...

I gave Kipper his due...I did take Roach over Connell too, just from my readings, I got the inclination that they were close, but Roach was more well respected...

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01-27-2013, 03:18 PM
  #212
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I had Kipper in my top 8 (just like last time), but he didn't quite make my top 4.

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01-27-2013, 05:08 PM
  #213
Dennis Bonvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I had Kipper in my top 8 (just like last time), but he didn't quite make my top 4.
I had Kipper in my top 8 (just like last time), but he didn't quite make my top 4.

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01-27-2013, 07:17 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I had Kipper in my top 8 (just like last time), but he didn't quite make my top 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I had Kipper in my top 8 (just like last time), but he didn't quite make my top 4.
Same here. But he wasn't in my Top-4 last round.


Last edited by MXD: 01-27-2013 at 07:25 PM.
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01-27-2013, 07:51 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Voted, we wrote off Kiprusoff a little too soon...what's he have, like four top-5 Vezina finishes...he's been good in the playoffs (outstanding in 2004) but his teams have been pretty mediocre (outside of '04). But he has one good playoffs just like Thomas and Lundqvist, so hopefully he can live off of it even though it didn't just happen...

Kipper is a workhorse goalie for a team stuck in hockey limbo and has performed admirably pretty much every year he's been allowed to...more elite seasons than many of the guys left, but just didn't get talked about that much...a lot of one and two year wonders are up for vote, but a guy with a small handful got pushed aside. I wish I had had more time to make some cases in this thread, but I'm on a rush job right now with almost no time to spare...

I gave Kipper his due...I did take Roach over Connell too, just from my readings, I got the inclination that they were close, but Roach was more well respected...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I had Kipper in my top 8 (just like last time), but he didn't quite make my top 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I had Kipper in my top 8 (just like last time), but he didn't quite make my top 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Same here. But he wasn't in my Top-4 last round.
I had Kipper in my top 8 (just like last time), but he didn't quite make my top 4.

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01-27-2013, 07:52 PM
  #216
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with 19 votes in, it's getting settled. Interesting races still going, aside from 3, 4, and 5, which are set in stone.

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01-28-2013, 02:51 PM
  #217
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Are we done, or operating on a new deadline?

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01-28-2013, 02:56 PM
  #218
TheDevilMadeMe
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We're on seventieslord time now.

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01-28-2013, 05:19 PM
  #219
Dennis Bonvie
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We're on seventieslord time now.
Lord Howe Daylight Time?

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Old
01-28-2013, 05:47 PM
  #220
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The incredible thing about Dryden and his stats are that he was not respected as a great goalie from his team members.Also he sat out a year to get a better contract was not taken very well.The late Michel Larouque had comparable stats playing about 30 games a year.Larouque had a 2.09 gaa in one season.Bowman benched Dryden in final 79 and Laroouque got hurt in pre-game.Dryden was very good but stats can be very mis-leading

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01-28-2013, 05:54 PM
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
The incredible thing about Dryden and his stats are that he was not respected as a great goalie from his team members.Also he sat out a year to get a better contract was not taken very well.The late Michel Larouque had comparable stats playing about 30 games a year.Larouque had a 2.09 gaa in one season.Bowman benched Dryden in final 79 and Laroouque got hurt in pre-game.Dryden was very good but stats can be very mis-leading
The Habs also got worse when Dryden left for his studies, and Laroque played against weaker teams.

Besides, do you have a quote for the non-respect thing? Anyways... not being respected by teammates (if that's the case) is, IMO, pretty irrelevant for the purposes of this list, unless the lack of respect is directed to the lack of skill of said goaltender. The exercise aims to establish a list of the most proefficient goaltenders, not a list of the most popular individual who doned pads on every three days during 8 months while being paid to do so.

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01-28-2013, 06:02 PM
  #222
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I just wanted to express my opinion on Dryden please don't take any offence he was a hall of fame goalie just how good I don't know?Roggie Vachon?

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01-28-2013, 08:46 PM
  #223
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The beautiful thing about free speech is that it allows you to tell other people that they're wrong.

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01-28-2013, 11:22 PM
  #224
seventieslord
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We're on seventieslord time now.
That's right. 8PM to midnight, CST, if I'm lucky.

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