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Proposal-Iginla to New jersey

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Old
03-03-2005, 05:20 PM
  #76
MeatTornado
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I'm not going to comment on the trade proposal, as enough people from both sides have given their 2 cents, but some people are making it sound like Iginla is worlds above Elias, which he isn't. Elias is one of the most underrated forwards in the league. I'd take Iginla over Elias, but it's closer than some people are making it sound.

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03-03-2005, 05:21 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gobert
but some people are making it sound like Iginla is worlds above Elias, which he isn't.
I've read through the thread again, and not one person is doing that. Elias is one damn good NHL forward, very underrated.. but Iginla is the clear better player.

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03-03-2005, 05:26 PM
  #78
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IMO saying the diffrence between Iggy and Elias is large enough to justify the devils adding Parise or Parise + Martin to the deal is pretty much the same thing as being "worlds away" or at least saying Iggy is by far superior to Elias.

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03-03-2005, 05:32 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Bileur
IMO saying the diffrence between Iggy and Elias is large enough to justify the devils adding Parise or Parise + Martin to the deal is pretty much the same thing as being "worlds away" or at least saying Iggy is by far superior to Elias.
I'm pretty no-one suggested Elias plus Parise AND Martin

there was some discussion of Langenbrunner Parise and Martin

regardless I'm pretty sure everyone here thinks Elias is tremendous, I certainly do

I think whether some think Elias and Parise for Iginla is fair or not, is more a reflection of how highly you value Parise as opposed to Elias (if that makes sense?)

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03-03-2005, 05:32 PM
  #80
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Not to jump in and take sides in the matter, but I've come to an interesting conclusion.

Sure, the different between Elias and Iginla isn't as much as some say it is. To support some of these claims, people are saying "well, if Elias was in an offensive system (which is odd in the first place since no Sutter system is 'offensive' oriented) or if he were in Iginla's spot etc etc". Unfortunately, it's a woulda/coulda argument and there's no way of knowing if Elias' production would go up or down with lesser linemates in Calgary. However, Iginla on the other hand (in this situation) is money in the bank, and I'd even go so far as to say that on just about any team in the league Iginla would have just as many points, accolades, and hardware if not more than he has already achieved thusfar with Calgary. Because of this, Iginla IS the more valuable player by a noticeable, but not significant margin. Please note, I'm not saying that their difference in abilities/production is a huge one--just making a side comment on value and value alone.

I'll say it again. To get Calgary to listen to New Jersey in the event of Iginla trade talks, it'd need to begin at least with Parise and Elias -- New Jersey might hang up the phone, but I'm saying that's the minimum that Calgary would take for Iginla at this point.

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03-03-2005, 05:55 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
Sure, the different between Elias and Iginla isn't as much as some say it is. To support some of these claims, people are saying "well, if Elias was in an offensive system (which is odd in the first place since no Sutter system is 'offensive' oriented) or if he were in Iginla's spot etc etc".
I don't think this disclaimer has to be used at all.

2003-2004

Elias 38g 43a 81pts +26
Iggy 41g 32a 73pts +21

2002-2003

Elias 28g 29a 57pts +17
Iggy 35g 32a 67pts -10

2001-2002

Elias 29g 32a 61pts +4
Iggy 52g 44a 96pts +27

2000-2001

Elias 40g 56a 96pts +45
Iggy 31g 40a 71pts -2

Career

Elias 558gp 207g 252a 459pts +140
Iggy 626gp 250g 253a 503pts +23

Post Season

Elias 102gp 28g 50a 78pts +19
Iggy 28gp 14g 10a 24pts +15

Comparing their career totals, their past four years, their career years, and their post season performances I would say that statistically they are very comparable regardless of the system they play in.

Iggy is undoubtably the better goal scorer. Elias a better playmaker. +/- can be a misleading stat because Iginla has played on a poor team; however, Elias's outstanding +/- cannot be argued. He has a great +/- even when considering he has played on a great team. They both produce in the post season but any GM would *love* to have Elias's post season experience on their team. That's not a knock on Iginla as he couldn't help who he played for in the past, but it's still a plus for Elias.

Now would either team trade either player? I doubt it. Elias fits in great with the Devils system while Iggy is a very marketable player for a city like Calgary. But in terms of trade value, in terms of what they bring to their team, they are very comparable.

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03-03-2005, 06:03 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looooob
I'm pretty no-one suggested Elias plus Parise AND Martin

I think whether some think Elias and Parise for Iginla is fair or not, is more a reflection of how highly you value Parise as opposed to Elias (if that makes sense?)

Are you?


I think I see what you're saying but the question remains the same, is the diffence between Iggy and Elias = Parise? For the devils, I think not. I do agree, more or less with this though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
I'll say it again. To get Calgary to listen to New Jersey in the event of Iginla trade talks, it'd need to begin at least with Parise and Elias -- New Jersey might hang up the phone, but I'm saying that's the minimum that Calgary would take for Iginla at this point.

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Old
03-03-2005, 06:04 PM
  #83
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I don't know how these always turn into compare a player debates, who really cares? NJ is more than happy with Elias and us Flames fans are also unwilling to part with Iginla. Especially not for the proposal originally offered... You'd need to add in at least one more impact player, regardless of how unfair that would be to NJ. That's what it would take in real life, possibly more.

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03-03-2005, 06:08 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by salzy
Good point - Iginla's contributions should only be measured in terms of offensive statistics. He' really good for putting up a few points and not much else.
Elias ain't too shabby in terms of intangibles either. I was just pointing out that Elias is in Iginla's league in terms of pure point production.

Like I said before, Iginla is better.....but if I were GM of the Devils, I would pass on Iginla for Elias/Parise given our current situation.

I know the usual argument is that Elias has had better linemates or a better team, but I think that is evened out by the amount of PP ice time that Iginla gets.

Iginla:
2003-04: 4:10 on the PP (73 points, 52 ES points, 21 PP points)
2002-03: 5:02 on the PP (67 points, 47 ES points, 20 PP points)
2001-02: 5:08 on the PP (96 points, 66 ES points, 30 PP points)

Average: 4:47 per game on the PP, 23.7 PP points per season

Elias:
2003-04: 3:25 on the PP (81, 61, 20)
2002-03: 2:52 on the PP (57, 43, 14)
2001-02: 2:59 on the PP (61, 43, 18)

Average: 3:06 per game on the PP, 17.3 PP points per season

Basically Iginla got 1:40 more per game on the PP, or 34.8% more than Elias. Over an 82 game schedule, that is somewhat signicant.

----------

Again, not knocking Iginla. He's a stud.

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03-03-2005, 06:36 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saillias
I don't know how these always turn into compare a player debates, who really cares? NJ is more than happy with Elias and us Flames fans are also unwilling to part with Iginla. Especially not for the proposal originally offered... You'd need to add in at least one more impact player, regardless of how unfair that would be to NJ. That's what it would take in real life, possibly more.
Only in your REAL LIFE. We don't want him or need him, but in your real life, we should trade the whole Devil team for him! :lol

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03-03-2005, 06:49 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Brodeur
Elias ain't too shabby in terms of intangibles either. I was just pointing out that Elias is in Iginla's league in terms of pure point production.

Like I said before, Iginla is better.....but if I were GM of the Devils, I would pass on Iginla for Elias/Parise given our current situation.

I know the usual argument is that Elias has had better linemates or a better team, but I think that is evened out by the amount of PP ice time that Iginla gets.

Iginla:
2003-04: 4:10 on the PP (73 points, 52 ES points, 21 PP points)
2002-03: 5:02 on the PP (67 points, 47 ES points, 20 PP points)
2001-02: 5:08 on the PP (96 points, 66 ES points, 30 PP points)

Average: 4:47 per game on the PP, 23.7 PP points per season

Elias:
2003-04: 3:25 on the PP (81, 61, 20)
2002-03: 2:52 on the PP (57, 43, 14)
2001-02: 2:59 on the PP (61, 43, 18)

Average: 3:06 per game on the PP, 17.3 PP points per season

Basically Iginla got 1:40 more per game on the PP, or 34.8% more than Elias. Over an 82 game schedule, that is somewhat signicant.

----------

Again, not knocking Iginla. He's a stud.
Yes, Iginla got more PP time on a much worse team with much worse supporting cast. In the end, the extra minute over an 82 game would probably result in 5-7 more points. Not a whole lot.

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03-03-2005, 07:13 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac
I am only proving a point. Calgary fans are allowed to call our players offered spare parts, when it is hardly the case but when you call Iginla a good 1st liner they lose it. Its quite funny actually.
So in other words, you only said that out of petty spite then?

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03-03-2005, 07:15 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac
Iginla's defense is not up to the level of Elias's, you can argue all you want about Iginla being used in key situations late in the game.....hell Gretzky was used in late situations because he can control the puck, not because he was great defensivly. Gretzky was also used in the PK. Iginla only gets more PK time because NJ has a first unit of Madden and Pandolfo.

You will allways change facts to use them in your own argument. Just because a player is used on the PK unit doesn't mean they are great defensivly. Elias is considered one of the better two way forwards in the league, Iginla is not. There is a reason for that.
Umm... isn't that what your doing too?

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03-03-2005, 08:13 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
So in other words, you only said that out of petty spite then?
Yes.....everyone knows Iginla is more then a good 1st line forward. Like I said, just proveing that fans can go on the opposite extremely regarding devils players.

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03-03-2005, 08:15 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Umm... isn't that what your doing too?
I am not saying the following:

Elias was used on Team Czechs PK and New Jersey's PK so he must be good defensivly.

Elias got praise from many writers for his two way play.

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03-03-2005, 08:27 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac
I am not saying the following:

Elias was used on Team Czechs PK and New Jersey's PK so he must be good defensivly.

Elias got praise from many writers for his two way play.
So what is your point? Iginla gets PK time with Team Canada, on the Flames and praise from many writers for his 2 way game as well.

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03-03-2005, 08:35 PM
  #92
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My god, Parise and Elias for Iginla is NOT a fair deal, Calgary rips off New Jersey and I immediatly start to think that Lou had a Vice Versa moment with Glen Sathers and is now in Madison Square Garden having a panic attack.

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03-03-2005, 08:39 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
So what is your point? Iginla gets PK time with Team Canada, on the Flames and praise from many writers for his 2 way game as well.
Do you ever bother reading before you spew all your posts out.

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03-03-2005, 08:40 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac
Yes.....everyone knows Iginla is more then a good 1st line forward. Like I said, just proveing that fans can go on the opposite extremely regarding devils players.
Ok, so rather then take the high road to formulate a respectable discussion, you reply with a petty retort to an Oiler fan regarding a Flames player.

I agree dawgbone undersold Jamie Langenbrunner (and god would I ever love to see him don the Flaming C) but do the Flames have an ampload of qulity young defensman? Yes. Has Parise accomplished anything in the NHL? Nope. dawgbone's arguments, while somewhat critical, held water. Your retorts did not.

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03-03-2005, 08:43 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
So in other words, you only said that out of petty spite then?
Of course he did. MacIssac is one of the biggest anti-Flames posters on HF, I suspect he secretly has a hard-on for everything that has to do with the Flames and hates himself for it.

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03-03-2005, 08:43 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Ok, so rather then take the high road to formulate a respectable discussion, you reply with a petty retort to an Oiler fan regarding a Flames player.

I agree dawgbone undersold Jamie Langenbrunner (and god would I ever love to see him don the Flaming C) but do the Flames have an ampload of qulity young defensman? Yes. Has Parise accomplished anything in the NHL? Nope. dawgbone's arguments, while somewhat critical, held water. Your retorts did not.
My resort was the opposite side of the spectrum and while may not have been all that realistic did show how far off his opinions were from the truth. Also, name something I said in my post that didn't hold water?

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03-03-2005, 08:45 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kolanos
Of course he did. MacIssac is one of the biggest anti-Flames posters on HF, I suspect he secretly has a hard-on for everything that has to do with the Flames and hates himself for it.
Anti-Flames? They are my second favorite team in the league. Just nothing that Flames fans are saying about the Devils players are respectivly true.

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03-03-2005, 08:45 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Langenbrunner is a dime a dozen 2nd/3rd line player. .
are YOU joking ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
The difference isn't as big as some people here want to think.
thank you


Last edited by andora: 03-03-2005 at 08:53 PM.
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Old
03-03-2005, 08:50 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac
I am not saying the following:

Elias was used on Team Czechs PK and New Jersey's PK so he must be good defensivly.

Elias got praise from many writers for his two way play.
You did say, however,

New Jersey offers a top 10 prospect in the world who has a WJC MVP, AHL allstar appearence under his belt, is second in rookie scoring in the AHL and was a Hobey Baker finalist. They also give up a main cog in Minnesota's back to back NCAA championships who was picked for the young guns game, played for Team USA at the World Cup all in his first pro season.

Note that I am NOT putting down Parise in any way, shape or form. I really like Parise as a prospect and I think Langenbrunner is a valuable commodity. Elias can play on my team any day, and Hale... well I'll be honest, I don't really know anything about him.

HOWEVER, you have to realize you have to give to get. I personally consider Jarome Iginla to be an elite star, and Elias to be a 2nd tier star. PLEASE NOTE that by 2nd tier star, I mean the likes of Mike Modano, Mats Sudin, Dany Heatley, Vincent Lecavlier (at the present), Brad Richards ect ect. By elite star, I mean Iginla, Forsberg, Lidstrom and Brodeur and possibly Pronger.

Would it gut NJ to deal Parise with Elias? Yes it would. Do I think NJ should do it? No I don't. That being said, the asking tag would likly be (the Flames would likely have to kick in another player though, or a 1st rounder) but thats what it takes to acquire what many (but not all) consider to be the best player in the world. You want a parallel example? Rumours circulated (and even confirmed I believe) that arter winning the Art Ross and Maurice Richard in 2002, Philly offered Simon Gagne, Justin Williams and Joni Pitkanan for Jarome Iginla and Craig Conroy - and note at the time what type of commodities Gagne and Williams were. Is Elias and Parise farfetched? No its not. But does it make sense for NJ? No it doesn't either.

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03-03-2005, 08:54 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac
Also, name something I said in my post that didn't hold water?
Umm... in your posts?

Elias is considered one of the better two way forwards in the league, Iginla is not.

I'm sure alot of people who happen are in hockey for a living would disagree.

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