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with those descriptions of 2nd tier and elite etc.. where is the major difference between elias and iginla... and even the difference between them and sundin etc...
where is this line ? .. i'm being honest, not condescending
with those descriptions of 2nd tier and elite etc.. where is the major difference between elias and iginla... and even the difference between them and sundin etc...
where is this line ? .. i'm being honest, not condescending
Just nothing that Flames fans are saying about the Devils players are respectivly true.
Well in case you missed it, I said Langenbrunner is one of my favourite Flames. I remember back in his days with Dallas, there were more then a few fans drooling over a thought of picking up one of Button's old favourites.
Elias is a fantastic player who can play on my team any day. Great talent, solid all around game, and a sound cog of one of the most highly regarded teams in the past decade. I would love to have Elias on my team.
Zach Parise was one of the guys I wanted the Flames to draft at #9 (along with Phaneuf). I would love to have him as a Flames prospect any day.
Anti-Flames? They are my second favorite team in the league. Just nothing that Flames fans are saying about the Devils players are respectivly true.
Interesting, I always see you cutting into the Flames on HF. I am a Devils fan as well, I certainly respect Elias' abilities, he is a very good player, but the difference between him and Iginla is considerable when you consider how few players there are in the NHL that offer the complete package Iginla does. Elias is a very capable two-way player, excellent playmaker, and brings an offensive punch even within a defensive system. But he cannot carry a team on his back like Iginla can, and has. Elias needs guys to make room for him on the ice, and he doens't hold up well in physical play -- if he were the only offensive threat on his team, he would be in some trouble offensively and physically. Iginla on the other hand is no stranger to being double and triple teamed consistently, night in and night out. I actually think Iginla is better when he has guys draped all over him than he is when he actually has some room on the ice in which to work.
HOWEVER, you have to realize you have to give to get. I personally consider Jarome Iginla to be an elite star, and Elias to be a 2nd tier star. PLEASE NOTE that by 2nd tier star, I mean the likes of Mike Modano, Mats Sudin, Dany Heatley, Vincent Lecavlier (at the present), Brad Richards ect ect. By elite star, I mean Iginla, Forsberg, Lidstrom and Brodeur and possibly Pronger.
I think it's a little early to be putting Iginla's name with those. When healthy, there is little doubt that Forsberg is the most dominant forward by quite a bit. Brodeur is also far ahead of his peers. Ditto with Lidstrom when it comes to defensemen.
Well in case you missed it, I said Langenbrunner is one of my favourite Flames. I remember back in his days with Dallas, there were more then a few fans drooling over a thought of picking up one of Button's old favourites.
with those descriptions of 2nd tier and elite etc.. where is the major difference between elias and iginla... and even the difference between them and sundin etc...
where is this line ? .. i'm being honest, not condescending
I could make this long winded and all, but I still gotta study for a midterm tomorrow
For me, there's a huge step between a top player and an elite player. The level they take themselves too, their contributions to their success and their impacts, if they are able to do more with less ect ect. They have to do something special outside of what's expected (to me at least). That's what sets aside a player like Markus Naslund IMO from Iginla and Forsberg.
ie exception: One of the slants Brodeur gets often gets is that he plays on a great team. Out of my description between a top player and an elite player, Brodeur is the only one that gets exception from that. For playing as long as he has and at the level he's at and at the competitions he's played it, he's in a league in itself.
I think it's a little early to be putting Iginla's name with those. When healthy, there is little doubt that Forsberg is the most dominant forward by quite a bit. Brodeur is also far ahead of his peers. Ditto with Lidstrom when it comes to defensemen.
When when would it be fitting to put Iginla with the elite players?
Maybe respected hockey experts, including Bob MacKenzie, think Jarome Iginla is the best player in the league. So I don't think its out of this world to say he's top 3, if not top 5.
For me, there's a huge step between a top player and an elite player. The level they take themselves too, their contributions to their success and their impacts, if they are able to do more with less ect ect. They have to do something special outside of what's expected (to me at least).
just a couple quick questions that came to mind...
1 - can we not use elias' playoff stats as proof, or atleast evidence that he does some of what you describe above?
2 - how does iginla slip out of the "they have to do something special outside of what's expected", or what i mean to ask is.. is what elias does (in playoffs too) what's expected of him and what iginla does not expected of him but better?
in other words, in the past five years, has iginla gone past expectations, or is he doing what he is and was expected to do..
your post was good, it's just that expectancy thing that bothered me a little bit, i mean what iginla has done, i kind of expect him to do that, as the great player he is i expect him to lead, score etc... how can iginla flip flop in this definition and how does elias fit in ?
When when would it be fitting to put Iginla with the elite players?
Maybe respected hockey experts, including Bob MacKenzie, think Jarome Iginla is the best player in the league. So I don't think its out of this world to say he's top 3, if not top 5.
I suspect it will not happen as long as he is a Flame. That's not a bias against the Flames per se, but it is a bias against small market teams.
just a couple quick questions that came to mind...
1 - can we not use elias' playoff stats as proof, or atleast evidence that he does some of what you describe above?
2 - how does iginla slip out of the "they have to do something special outside of what's expected", or what i mean to ask is.. is what elias does (in playoffs too) what's expected of him and what iginla does not expected of him but better?
in other words, in the past five years, has iginla gone past expectations, or is he doing what he is and was expected to do..
your post was good, it's just that expectancy thing that bothered me a little bit, i mean what iginla has done, i kind of expect him to do that, as the great player he is i expect him to lead, score etc... how can iginla flip flop in this definition and how does elias fit in ?
1. Forget stats for a second, was Elias a standout player with NJ's run's? He wasn't too me at least.
2. Well I think his performance in the 2004 run to the finals is "spcial" the way he took the team on his back. What does Elias have to do? Well he has to standout for me. Create the wave, not ride it. I saw him as a top gun, but I never saw him as a stand out player. When I think NJ, I think about Stevens and Brodeur, then Niedermayer and Elias. You know what I kind of mean? He's not the standout player that Iginla is, at least not right now.
Only in your REAL LIFE. We don't want him or need him, but in your real life, we should trade the whole Devil team for him! :lol
You apparently read something that wasn't there. I never said that the Devils should trade Parise, Langenbrunner and Martin + impact player for Iginla. I said that's what it would take to get him.
And Calgary wouldn't exactly be jumping over that (original) package either.
1. Forget stats for a second, was Elias a standout player with NJ's run's? He wasn't too me at least.
2. Well I think his performance in the 2004 run to the finals is "spcial" the way he took the team on his back. What does Elias have to do? Well he has to standout for me. Create the wave, not ride it. I saw him as a top gun, but I never saw him as a stand out player. When I think NJ, I think about Stevens and Brodeur, then Niedermayer and Elias. You know what I kind of mean? He's not the standout player that Iginla is, at least not right now.
I'd say Iginla has gone far past expectations.
2000 and 2001 Elias had over 20 points. To say he wasn't a standout player for NJ those two years is pretty silly.
Stevens and Brodeur overshadow what Elias and Niedermayer do. Its some sort of misconception of the game itself. It is a team game, Iginla was be the first to say it took a team effort to get to the finals. Kipper in nets, their defense stepping up, yelle playing amazing. Then what, they still didn't get it done. Elias has gotten it done, once leading the charge up front and the other stepping up in the final two rounds.
1. Forget stats for a second, wasn't Elias a standout player with NJ's run's? He wasn't too me at least.
Hell yes! He scored the winning goal in Game 7 of the 2000 ECF's against the Flyers with just two minutes left in the game to win it to advance to the Stanley Cup finals and helped win that Stanley Cup in Game Six in double overtime with a GREAT pass to Jason Arnott. The next year he scored nine goals and 14 assists to help them reach the finals again only to lose.
He's always been big for us, always.
Last edited by Ronnie Bass: 03-03-2005 at 09:29 PM.
ok thanks for your answer ... makes more sense to me what your expectations are, etc..
thanks
My late brain waves have just come up with something
Another way of defining how a player "takes it to the next leve" ... look at the traditional power forwards and the power forward game. (Being one of the younger generations) John Leclair, Bill Guerin, Brendan Shanahan and Keith Tkahcuk defined what a power forward game is. I don't know if you'd agree with me or not, but I'd say Iginla redefined what it means to be an elite powerforward, at least last year.
2000 and 2001 Elias had over 20 points. To say he wasn't a standout player for NJ those two years is pretty silly.
Great points. If you didn't know, I'm not overly high and mighty on stats.
At least to me, he wasn't a stand out player. He didn't redefine how things are done. In a someone lame analogy, Patrick Elias rode the waves, eh didn't create it.
Iginla, on the other hand, did with Calgary.
And by your "then what, he didn't get it done" is another rather silly comment.
Hell yes! He scored the winning goal in Game 7 of the 2000 ECF's against the Flyers with just two minutes left in the game to win it to advance to the Stanley Cup finals and helped win that Stanley Cup in Game Six in double overtime with a GREAT pass to Jason Arnott. The next year he scored nine goals and 14 assists to help them reach the finals again only to lose.
He's always been big for us, always.
Yes he has been big, but has he been standout? Has he been the standout for, say, Dominek Hasek in Buffalo's run? Giguere in Anahaim's run? Even Joe Nieuwendyk, a bit of a vanilla player IMO with Dallas ... those are 3 examples of players who can "get it done" to be an elite talent. (Unfortunatly, Niieuwendyk is a little long in tooth and, for lack of creativity once again, too vanilla to be a superstar while Giguere has to get the form he had in the 2003 playoffs once again for at least a season IMO.
My late brain waves have just come up with something
Another way of defining how a player "takes it to the next leve" ... look at the traditional power forwards and the power forward game. (Being one of the younger generations) John Leclair, Bill Guerin, Brendan Shanahan and Keith Tkahcuk defined what a power forward game is. I don't know if you'd agree with me or not, but I'd say Iginla redefined what it means to be an elite powerforward, at least last year.
Thus the I don't know if you'd agree with me or not, but I'd say Iginla redefined what it means to be an elite powerforward, at least last year if you happen to (which it seems like you did) miss it.
Thus the I don't know if you'd agree with me or not, but I'd say Iginla redefined what it means to be an elite powerforward, at least last year if you happen to (which it seems like you did) miss it.
I just wanted to point out I didnt agree.
Honestly trying to trade for Iggy is a waste of time. Calgary would be forced to ask for overpay (one of the only cases where I think this argument aactually holds water) and the other teams would most likely not be willing to pay that leading to indignat responses and eventually big arguments/flame wars. Not that this happened here. But IMO its just a waste of time.
Yes he has been big, but has he been standout? Has he been the standout for, say, Dominek Hasek in Buffalo's run? Giguere in Anahaim's run? Even Joe Nieuwendyk, a bit of a vanilla player IMO with Dallas ... those are 3 examples of players who can "get it done" to be an elite talent. (Unfortunatly, Niieuwendyk is a little long in tooth and, for lack of creativity once again, too vanilla to be a superstar while Giguere has to get the form he had in the 2003 playoffs once again for at least a season IMO.
Again yes, com'on man, I have read your posts and like some of your well thought out opinions even if I felt that you are giving a little too much credit to Iginla, but still not enough to make a stink about it. But now I have reason also to believe that you are not giving Elias his proper due even despite all of your strong praise for him earlier. You make good points about Iginla emergence as a hockey player, but let me throw this at you: Elias is just one year older than Iginla and just like him keeps getting better and better as shown by his play in the last half of last year and outstanding play for czech team in the World Cup and has proven himself consistently through the playoffs and alot longer than Iginla. Before we all start writing songs and naming our first born son Jarome, lets wait to make sure he can keep these performances up to par, which for my opinion if it's worth a crap he will, just as Elias has.
"Lou is God" - I really don't think we're still on the same page about what a "standout" player is. I have a very small margin of give for the term "standout" where you seem to use it in a broader view.
.. i'm being honest, not condescending
