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Proposal-Iginla to New jersey

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Old
03-05-2005, 08:18 AM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
"outside of his 3 OT goals"
Personal opinon though. I thought Stephane Yelle was the key to the turn around int he Vancouver series and was 2nd best forward due to his penelty killing skills and shot blocking. Not to mention faceoffs when all the centers started going down.
I know what you said, I'm saying you can't ignore three series ending overtime goals so to fit your arguement, it's too much of a major achivement to do that.

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03-05-2005, 08:25 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Sykie
Don't worry guys, gobert has it.

Iginla over Elias, but NOT by that great of a margin. And if you factor in the difference of salaries, the difference in term of trade value is even smaller. If Iginla is signed around 7 millions and Elias around 5 millions, I can assure you it's a good point for Elias.

Conclusion : The Elias + Parise propositions are foolish....

BTW the guys which are diminushing Elias accomplishments are ridiculous, with Elias you're talking about an absolute stud, and he did just as good as Iginla both in regular season and in playoffs. Oh and for those who said Iginla was more important to the Flames, you saw only ONE playoff run by Iginla and Kiprusoff was just as important, if not more. So you can't make great conclusions, both are great playoffs performers, and both can make the difference. It's that simple.
Exactly. None of us Devils fans are trying to lay claim that Elias is a better player than Iginla, we just find it absurb that people are suggesting that Iginla is head and shoulders above Elias. Insane.

Also agree with you 100% that one great playoff run does not make a legend, lets see him do it again like the great ones do.

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03-05-2005, 09:12 AM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac
Iginla's defense is not up to the level of Elias's, you can argue all you want about Iginla being used in key situations late in the game.....hell Gretzky was used in late situations because he can control the puck, not because he was great defensivly. Gretzky was also used in the PK. Iginla only gets more PK time because NJ has a first unit of Madden and Pandolfo.

You will allways change facts to use them in your own argument. Just because a player is used on the PK unit doesn't mean they are great defensivly. Elias is considered one of the better two way forwards in the league, Iginla is not. There is a reason for that.
Interesting thread. So far I have seen only a couple of posters really get thier noses out of joint in regards to a trade that is universally thought of as being impossible to make, and they are both Devils fans. The one defending his players with very little common sense is a Devils fan. So I am not sure how the Flames fans are the ones being delusional. Just some comments on this thread.

The whole "defensive" capabilities of Elias versus Iginla are laughable. Elias is an offensive player who rarely sees the ice in a defensive situation because he is not as compitent as Madden and Pandolfo. Iginla is the opposite and he sees the ice because he is one of the best defensive players on the team, a team which included defensive stalwarts like Yelle and Conroy, both in the same league or better than Madden and Pandolfo. Iginla is very much in the same position as Sakic in Colorado. He is used in every situation because he is one of the best players in the league in every situation. Patrick Elias is a great sniper, but he is not a great defensive player, and that is acknowledged through how he is used by his team.

The numbers that Mr. MacIssac fails to trot out to support this fact tell the story. Here's a relative comparison that shows just how good each player is and how their "defensive" stats can be challenged.

Iginla

2001-02 - 82GP, 52G, 44A, 96P, +27 - Calgary -19 in goal differential
2002-03 - 75GP, 35G, 32A, 67P, -10 - Calgary -42 in goal differential
2003-04 - 81GP, 41G, 32A, 73P, +21 - Calgary +26 in goal differential

Elias

2001-02 - 75GP, 29G, 32A, 61P, +4 - New Jersey +18 in goal differential
2002-03 - 81GP, 28G, 29A, 57P, +17 - New Jersey +50 in goal differential
2003-04 - 81GP, 38G, 43A, 81P, +26 - New Jersey +49 in goal differential

New Jersey's team success has a much greater bearing on Elias' numbers than Iginla's IMO. As the team success has gone so had Elias' "defensive" numbers. As mentioned earlier Iginla is first unit player in every situation, Elias is not. That alone is what makes Iginla a coach's wet dream and a player every organization would love to get their hooks into.

I would take Elias on my team in a heartbeat, but not at the expense of Iginla. Iginla is a player you build a team around, Elias is a player that supports the franchise player. When New Jersey speaks of its franchise player(s) you do not hear Elias' name mentioned. Its Brodeur, Stevens or Niedermayer. In Calgary its Iginla, Iginla and Iginla. Iginla is a very special player, one that any team would do what ever it takes to get him, within reason.

Frankly I think there is no deal to be made. New Jersey could use Iginla, but would be silly to cough up the players it would take to get him when you consider the state of their organization. Calgary would be silly to trade away Iginla without getting back something more tangible than that offered. After seven years of bitter disappointments the last thing the team needs is a move that leaves the fans questioning the direction of the team. The deal makes no sense for either team.

One last thing. Bicycle Repairman continues to get away with his unsubstantiated trolls. I guess that because his brother can make up blatant lies in regards to the commissioner's bonuses he feels free to make up lies about the feelings of the fans of Calgary and the anti-union nature of the province. It never ceases to amaze me what he can get away with and never gets sanctioned for his actions.

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03-05-2005, 10:55 AM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
Elias is an offensive player who rarely sees the ice in a defensive situation because he is not as compitent as Madden and Pandolfo.
I will start here, Elias is on the 2nd PK unit with Serge Brylin who are out for the 2nd 40-60 second shift. He is more then capable of playing on Calgary's first PK unit. Elias has also been recognized by Devils hater Larry Brooks as one of the better two way forwards in the league. I even heard one writer say that he should be considered for Selke (allthough that award goes to the most offensive forwards who are good defensivly.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
Iginla is the opposite and he sees the ice because he is one of the best defensive players on the team, a team which included defensive stalwarts like Yelle and Conroy, both in the same league or better than Madden and Pandolfo.
I'm about to puke here. First, Conroy and Yelle are definatly better defensivly then Iginla. Clark would also be ahead of him on my list. That makes Iginla the 4th best defensive forward on the team. Yelle and Conroy are in the same league or better then Madden and Pandolfo? Give your head a shake and beat it off the wall a couple times. Madden and Pandolfo are either 1 or 2 as the best PK'ers in the NHL, Draper and Maltby are the only ones who are close if not better. Pandolfo Madden and Brylin/Langenbrunner would be the best defensive third line in the NHL other then, once again Detroit who may be better with Maltby, Draper and McCarty. For you to even say that proves you are delusional

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
Iginla is very much in the same position as Sakic in Colorado. He is used in every situation because he is one of the best players in the league in every situation. Patrick Elias is a great sniper, but he is not a great defensive player, and that is acknowledged through how he is used by his team.
Elias is used in all defensive situations after Madden and Pandolfo, and for good reason. On any other team he is their number one guy offensively and defensivly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
The numbers that Mr. MacIssac fails to trot out to support this fact tell the story. Here's a relative comparison that shows just how good each player is and how their "defensive" stats can be challenged.

Iginla

2001-02 - 82GP, 52G, 44A, 96P, +27 - Calgary -19 in goal differential
2002-03 - 75GP, 35G, 32A, 67P, -10 - Calgary -42 in goal differential
2003-04 - 81GP, 41G, 32A, 73P, +21 - Calgary +26 in goal differential

Elias

2001-02 - 75GP, 29G, 32A, 61P, +4 - New Jersey +18 in goal differential
2002-03 - 81GP, 28G, 29A, 57P, +17 - New Jersey +50 in goal differential
2003-04 - 81GP, 38G, 43A, 81P, +26 - New Jersey +49 in goal differential
Numbers and +- mean absolutly nothing in terms of being good defensivly. Other lienmates play a big role in your +- stats. When you have a center who is a defenive liability and a RW who is below average defensivly it will bring the whole line down compared to Iginla who has a former Selke winner at center. Foolish argument out the window.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
New Jersey's team success has a much greater bearing on Elias' numbers than Iginla's IMO. As the team success has gone so had Elias' "defensive" numbers. As mentioned earlier Iginla is first unit player in every situation, Elias is not. That alone is what makes Iginla a coach's wet dream and a player every organization would love to get their hooks into.
Once again what are these numbers you talk about since +- means **** all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
I would take Elias on my team in a heartbeat, but not at the expense of Iginla. Iginla is a player you build a team around, Elias is a player that supports the franchise player. When New Jersey speaks of its franchise player(s) you do not hear Elias' name mentioned. Its Brodeur, Stevens or Niedermayer. In Calgary its Iginla, Iginla and Iginla. Iginla is a very special player, one that any team would do what ever it takes to get him, within reason.

Frankly I think there is no deal to be made. New Jersey could use Iginla, but would be silly to cough up the players it would take to get him when you consider the state of their organization. Calgary would be silly to trade away Iginla without getting back something more tangible than that offered. After seven years of bitter disappointments the last thing the team needs is a move that leaves the fans questioning the direction of the team. The deal makes no sense for either team.
Sorry New Jersey has more then one franchise player and Calgary has two at the most and possibly three when Phaneuf develops. Elias is a franchise player, our whole offense is built around him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
One last thing. Bicycle Repairman continues to get away with his unsubstantiated trolls. I guess that because his brother can make up blatant lies in regards to the commissioner's bonuses he feels free to make up lies about the feelings of the fans of Calgary and the anti-union nature of the province. It never ceases to amaze me what he can get away with and never gets sanctioned for his actions.
Bicycle Repairman does stir up alot of stuff but he doesn't break the rules, you want to take the bait. Go ahead LM

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Old
03-05-2005, 01:20 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Now compare that to say Gomez and Brodeur and my point easily stands. Elias is playing with much more proven, elite talent. Iginla, is the man of the Flames and when he plays the team wins. When he doesn't come to play, the team struggles.
This is the esscence of my point. The Devils teams of the last decade have been so balanced and disciplined, that they could have sustained the loss of a guy like Elias and still won. Last year's flames wouldn't have done anything with Iginla.

I also think that BOTH Ellias and Iginla are being underrated in this thread.

Iginla is a really a superb player - a throwback to the days of Trottier, Sittler, and Messier. He is a truely complete player, and the kind of guy who can pick a team up and carry it to contention. I'd rather have him as my captain than any player in hockey right now.

On the other hand, Ellias is a superb player and he is NOT just a one dimensional player. He has elite skills, and his production in a defensive system can't be ignored.

Two of the better players in hockey in the recent era. What is not to love?

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03-05-2005, 01:29 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman
Jarome Iginla will never play another game in a Calgary Flames uniform.
Wow, BR.

I enjoy reading your stuff (you don't post nearly enough in the CBJ forum), but that's a pretty strong statement. I'd be shocked to see Iginla anywhere but Calgary.

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03-05-2005, 01:32 PM
  #157
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I also think Iginla should get a new jersey!

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03-05-2005, 04:24 PM
  #158
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iginla did it once in the playoffs. elias has done it many times.why is it many say your not up there with the great ones till you lead your team to the stanly cup.[win] but with calgary its allright to say iggy is there. when he brings the cup home
[close is not good enough] then you can compare him to elias in playoff terms not till.

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03-05-2005, 04:28 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac



I'm about to puke here. First, Conroy and Yelle are definatly better defensivly then Iginla. Clark would also be ahead of him on my list. That makes Iginla the 4th best defensive forward on the team. Yelle and Conroy are in the same league or better then Madden and Pandolfo? Give your head a shake and beat it off the wall a couple times. Madden and Pandolfo are either 1 or 2 as the best PK'ers in the NHL, Draper and Maltby are the only ones who are close if not better. Pandolfo Madden and Brylin/Langenbrunner would be the best defensive third line in the NHL other then, once again Detroit who may be better with Maltby, Draper and McCarty. For you to even say that proves you are delusional



Elias is used in all defensive situations after Madden and Pandolfo, and for good reason. On any other team he is their number one guy offensively and defensivly.



Numbers and +- mean absolutly nothing in terms of being good defensivly. Other lienmates play a big role in your +- stats. When you have a center who is a defenive liability and a RW who is below average defensivly it will bring the whole line down compared to Iginla who has a former Selke winner at center. Foolish argument out the window.


first off, Chris Clark is not a better defensive player than Jarome Iginla...he just isn't. he's a decent back and forth mucker, but last year was the first year I didn't cringe when he was on the ice

secondly, you seem to be implying that each of Madden,Pandolfo AND Elias are significantly better defensive players than Yelle and Conroy?

do I have that right? Madden is obviously tremendous (as are Pandolfo and Elias) but Conroy has been a multi-Selke nominee (and I assume you think that's important because it's a point you bring up later to downgrade Iginla) and Yelle is a world class PK guy. would I call them BETTER than the NJ players defensively? no I would not...but for someone to say they are in the same league...well its not as laughable as you make it out to be

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03-05-2005, 07:44 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Have you watched Elias play?
Yes, plenty. But to compare Iginla and Elias strictly on the basis of offensive statistics is completely ridiculous.

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03-05-2005, 07:48 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodeur
Elias ain't too shabby in terms of intangibles either. I was just pointing out that Elias is in Iginla's league in terms of pure point production.
Yep, and not much else. It's like the old Lindros-Kariya comparisons (when they were both at the top of their games. I could never understand it. Lindros always scored at around the same clip as Kariya or better, but he was so much more dominant in every other area it really made very little sense.

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03-05-2005, 08:50 PM
  #162
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Jason,

Quote:
Elias is used in all defensive situations after Madden and Pandolfo, and for good reason. On any other team he is their number one guy offensively and defensivly.
Quote:
Elias has also been recognized by Devils hater Larry Brooks as one of the better two way forwards in the league. I even heard one writer say that he should be considered for Selke (allthough that award goes to the most offensive forwards who are good defensivly.)
You remember this statment?

You will allways change facts to use them in your own argument.

followed by...


I am not saying the following:

Elias was used on Team Czechs PK and New Jersey's PK so he must be good defensivly.

Elias got praise from many writers for his two way play.


Not to mention I don't respect Larry Brooks very much.

And the fact that Iginla was top 10 in Selke nomination last year, I believe.

Quote:
Clark would also be ahead of him on my list.
I don't know where you would possibly get that. Marcus Nilson yes, Chris Clark no.

Quote:
Yelle and Conroy are in the same league or better then Madden and Pandolfo? Give your head a shake and beat it off the wall a couple times. Madden and Pandolfo are either 1 or 2 as the best PK'ers in the NHL, Draper and Maltby are the only ones who are close if not better. Pandolfo Madden and Brylin/Langenbrunner would be the best defensive third line in the NHL other then, once again Detroit who may be better with Maltby, Draper and McCarty. For you to even say that proves you are delusional
This is an opinion, not a fact. Do I think Yelle is a better defensive player then Madden and Draper? Yes. In fact, I've thought Yelle was the best defensive player in the league since the Guy Carbaneaou retired, and I've thought this since Yelle's days with the Avs. Personal opinion, but I think Yelle has one of the best defensive sense in the league, is the grittiest (this is easily up for debate though, when talking about the Yzerman's ect) in the league and is the best shot blocker since Greg Ludwing and his huge shin guards. Madden and Draper are better two-way players, however.

Meanwhile, you do realize that Craig Conroy has two runner-up nominations for the Selke? Not bad, eh? I don't think its fair to call someone "dillusional" if they have Conroy up there with Madden and Draper.

If I were to take Conroy, Yelle and Nilson and compare them vs. Madden, Pandelfo and Brylin/Langenbrunner, purely defense speaking, I'd say the Calgary crew is just as good if not better then NJ's crew.

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03-05-2005, 10:11 PM
  #163
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Who said Elias would be the number one guy on any other team, offensively and defensively?

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03-05-2005, 10:14 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadakiss
Who said Elias would be the number one guy on any other team, offensively and defensively?
Jason MacIsaac

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03-05-2005, 10:15 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Jason MacIsaac
:lol I thought so.

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03-05-2005, 10:34 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
And the fact that Iginla was top 10 in Selke nomination last year, I believe.

This is an opinion, not a fact. Do I think Yelle is a better defensive player then Madden and Draper? Yes....

If I were to take Conroy, Yelle and Nilson and compare them vs. Madden, Pandelfo and Brylin/Langenbrunner, purely defense speaking, I'd say the Calgary crew is just as good if not better then NJ's crew.
You cite Iginla's top 10 in Selke voting, but you also dismiss John Madden's Selke Trophy, plus Madden's two other finalist honors. Which is it? Do they count towards a player's reputation or not?

The Devils were first in fewest SOG faced in 2002-03 and second in that category in 2000-01, 2001-02, 2003-04. That seems to indicate that more than just a few players are playing well defensively. I wouldn't put the 2003-04 version of the Anaheim Might Ducks in the same category as the New Jersey Devils.

NJ has ranked first (2002-03) and sixth (2003-04) in penalty kill over the last couple of seasons. Calgary has ranked 16th (2002-03) and 13th (2003-04.)

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03-05-2005, 10:35 PM
  #167
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Elias = Iginla, only thing you'll get outta Iggy that you won't outta Patty is fights, but Patrik doesn't need to fight.

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03-05-2005, 10:37 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic
Elias = Iginla
:lol

Iginla is better than Elias, period.

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03-05-2005, 10:37 PM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
You cite Iginla's top 10 in Selke voting, but you also dismiss John Madden's Selke Trophy, plus Madden's two other finalist honors. Which is it? Do they count towards a player's reputation or not?
When did I dismiss Madden's Selke trophy?

I happen to think John Madden is one of the elite, defensive / 2-way players in the game.

Quote:
The Devils were first in fewest SOG faced in 2002-03 and second in that category in 2000-01, 2001-02, 2003-04. That seems to indicate that more than just a few players are playing well defensively. I wouldn't put the 2003-04 version of the Anaheim Might Ducks in the same category as the New Jersey Devils.

NJ has ranked first (2002-03) and sixth (2003-04) in penalty kill over the last couple of seasons. Calgary has ranked 16th (2002-03) and 13th (2003-04.)
What does this happen to do with Madden vs. Iginla?

If your trying to prove NJ is one of the premiere defensive teams in the league, I have no argument with you there. So I'm not even sure what your trying to argue there.

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03-05-2005, 10:41 PM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic
Elias = Iginla, only thing you'll get outta Iggy that you won't outta Patty is fights, but Patrik doesn't need to fight.
Wow, I didn't know their games were so equal outside of fighting...

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03-05-2005, 10:46 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Wow, I didn't know their games were so equal outside of fighting...
They are, and you guys can be pompous and arrogant all you want in regards to this whole debate, but there is no way you can convince me Jerome is way better than Elias, there's no way, and I'd appreciate it, if you guys didn't laugh at all of our comments, because you look highly immature. Thanks.

Edit: That's directed more to Jadakiss, because he's so biased it's not even funny. Come back to me when Iginla wins a cup or two.

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03-05-2005, 10:52 PM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic

Edit: That's directed more to Jadakiss, because he's so biased it's not even funny. Come back to me when Iginla wins a cup or two.
How I am biased? I'm not a Flames fan. Iginla is better than Elias. Ask any GM in the league, 97% would say Iginla.


Last edited by Burnaby_Joe*: 03-05-2005 at 10:58 PM.
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03-05-2005, 10:54 PM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic

Edit: That's directed more to Jadakiss, because he's so biased it's not even funny.
Most New Jersey fans on these boards are biased. It's almost as bad as those fans from B.C.

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03-06-2005, 01:16 AM
  #174
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If you asked any gm in the league if they'd rather have Iginla or Elias they'd slap you in the mouth for wasting their time with stupid questions.

Iginla is a player GM's dream about.

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03-06-2005, 01:23 AM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan
If you asked any gm in the league if they'd rather have Iginla or Elias they'd slap you in the mouth for wasting their time with stupid questions.

Iginla is a player GM's dream about.
Exactly

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