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Schroeder or Ebbett (UPD: Canucks recall Schroeder from Chicago - Jan 22)

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Old
01-18-2013, 05:09 PM
  #201
Canucker
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Originally Posted by andbreatheme View Post
Wasn't that because Hodgson wanted a bigger role? Creating a shutdown third line (or whatever it was supposed to be with Pahlsson centering it) doesn't really work out for us because the Canucks already have a lot of trouble scoring in the playoffs. We need some sort of offense from the third line.
Hodgson wanted a bigger role, but there was no bigger role available to him here. It's been said that they (management) built Hodgson up as best they could in order to deal him for a piece they coveted more.

After Wellwood was poo-poo'ed by AV, Gillis went out and got him the center he envisioned for the 3rd line...enter Manny Malhotra. If Manny doesn't have his eye injury, we're likely not even discussing the 3rd line center position right now.

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01-18-2013, 05:10 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
AV can like Schroeder's play and still not give him much of an opportunity here. Once Kesler is back Schroeder doesn't really fit AV's "prototypical" 3rd line center. If Hodgson and Wellwood weren't AV's flavor in the bottom 6, I doubt Schroeder is going to see a long term fit there either...and as long as we have Henrik and Kesler manning the 1-2 spots it doesn't bode well for him in Vancouver IMO.
It's pretty easy to put Kesler on Schroeder's wing if in fact Schroeder proves he can produce in the NHL after being given a chance.

A Booth Schroeder Kesler line opens up lots of options for the third and fourth lines.

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01-18-2013, 05:12 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Grabner was developed and traded for Ballard in a move to improve the Top 4.

Patrick White was a horrible pick.

Hodgson was developed and traded for a highly valued PWF prospect in Kassian. Looked to be on his way to being a half-decent #2C at some point in his career.

Schroeder is being developed just as he should be and will soon enough be a Canuck.

No draft pick 2010.

Jensen is excelling.

What exactly is your issue with our 1st rounders again?
Just in general that we're not doing a bang-up job that's going to allow us to be like Detroit. That's the perennial excuse that most have on here for not giving our younger skilled offensive guys a shot.

'Oh, we are so good at developing what we have, Shroeder/Grabner/XXX can hone his skills in the minors'

Well, our high picks are spotty - you prove my point there. Hodgson's playing time while on this team is at best debatable. Even when we traded for Kassian I don't think he was given as much icetime as he needed.

Basically I'm pointing out that our/AV's 'excellent job at developing young players' pretty much doesn't exist for skilled forwards.

What he DOES do a good job of is making fringe dudes into serviceable middle-6 wingers. He's also done a decent job with late-round defencemen.

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01-18-2013, 05:13 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Grabner was developed and traded for Ballard in a move to improve the Top 4.

Patrick White was a horrible pick.

Hodgson was developed and traded for a highly valued PWF prospect in Kassian. Looked to be on his way to being a half-decent #2C at some point in his career.

Schroeder is being developed just as he should be and will soon enough be a Canuck.

No draft pick 2010.

Jensen is excelling.

What exactly is your issue with our 1st rounders again?
The only one who has made the team got dumped after half a season.

That's pretty garbage.

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01-18-2013, 05:13 PM
  #205
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Ugh...why am I not surprised.

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01-18-2013, 05:14 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
Hodgson wanted a bigger role, but there was no bigger role available to him here. It's been said that they (management) built Hodgson up as best they could in order to deal him for a piece they coveted more.

After Wellwood was poo-poo'ed by AV, Gillis went out and got him the center he envisioned for the 3rd line...enter Manny Malhotra. If Manny doesn't have his eye injury, we're likely not even discussing the 3rd line center position right now.
Just because he had certain opinions 2 years ago doesn't mean he hasn't adjusted them since then. It's a learning process and I'm sure he has different thoughts on how a team should be structured than he did in the past.

Even after they acquired Pahlsson, AV was still giving exceptionally difficult minutes to the 4th line. Perhaps the new thinking is that we can create a 4th line that can both play shutdown minutes and provide some energy? If you combined Weise, Lapierre and Malhotra you could certainly have a solid shutdown line that can provide both energy and toughness.

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01-18-2013, 05:14 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by The Optimist View Post
It's pretty easy to put Kesler on Schroeder's wing if in fact Schroeder proves he can produce in the NHL after being given a chance.

A Booth Schroeder Kesler line opens up lots of options for the third and fourth lines.
They could do that (and I hope they would try it), but they also could have put Hodgson at center with Kesler, or vice versa...but it never came to pass. I'm not sure what AV has in mind going forward.

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01-18-2013, 05:14 PM
  #208
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I think our development record is up for debate.

We seem to do better bringing along late-draft defencemen and goalies.

The only 1st round draft choices that we've really given a significant role to is....nobody. Well now that we got rid of he-who-shall-not-be-named-because-he-hijacks-threads it's nobody.

Kesler is an '03 draft, Schneider '04, Bourdon '05. That means we basically haven't given a shot to or had a 1st-rounder pan out in 7 years.

I understand that drafting is an art, but to say we've done a great job developing young talent is naieve.

We can get a sleeper (Raymond) to be decent. We can get a guy like Hansen to be 3W. But as much as I like MayRay if he's lucky he'll scored 20 goals a year going forward. If we're unlucky, last year wasn't due to his injury.

Where is the rest of our home-grown talent up front?

Homegrown talent up front:

Sedin
Sedin
Burrows
Raymond
Kesler
Hansen


That's 5/6 of our top 6 and back to back, Presidents winning team. Canucks have also been one the highest scoring teams in the league for the past 3 seasons.

Is the Canucks draft record up for debate? Absolutely. However, AV has done an excellent job developing the talent that we have drafted. Do people really expect to be a top team year after year, with late draft picks and still have a full cupboard of young talent for us to insert in the lineup?

If the Canucks, specifically AV, have done such a poor job developing our players, where is the list of Canuck draft picks that have left our system and are having roaring success with another franchise?

Grabner? The one dimensional player that was waived twice before finding a home on the worst run team in the league? Is that it?


You can make a lot of arguments that our drafting has been poor but there is no evidence, empirical or otherwise, that AV hates young talent or has no clue how to develop them. It a fantastical narrative that has somehow gained footing, despite the fact that no one has been able to make any kind of convincing argument or provided any proof to support it.

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01-18-2013, 05:14 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
The only one who has made the team got dumped after half a season.

That's pretty garbage.
He didn't get dumped. He got traded for a prospect that filled an area of much greater need. Everything doesn't have to be high drama all the time.

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Old
01-18-2013, 05:19 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
They could do that (and I hope they would try it), but they also could have put Hodgson at center with Kesler, or vice versa...but it never came to pass. I'm not sure what AV has in mind going forward.
Not sure Hodgson could keep up with those two speedwise. Schroeder has the potential to.

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Old
01-18-2013, 05:20 PM
  #211
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Really disappointed about this. Shouldn't be surprised because it was AV making the decision. Schroeder never really had a chance to begin with.

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01-18-2013, 05:20 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
I certainly hope we can all look back someday and say that's true. But for now it's not. It just might be.

My point is that the 'Detroit system' looks good in retrospect because they had so many guys 'pan out' and exceed expectations.

To go on with the Draper comparison, then who is Hansen's Maltby?

We're just not as deep and more importantly STABLE of an organization to be really leery of developing our forward prospects.
Well, just to state a few quick facts here, bear with me:

1982: Detroit hires Jimmy Develano as GM
1983: Detroit drafts Steve Yzerman
1984: Detroit makes playoffs for first time in six years
1987: Detroit wins first best-of-7 series in 21 years
1989: Develano has probably the best draft in NHL GM history
1992: Detroit starts to rise to the cream of the crop in the Campbell
1995: Detroit makes the Finals
1996: Detroit wins PT with one of the best NHL seasons ever
1997: The rest is history

It took Detroit 10 years for their system to start to pay dividends and 15 to win a Cup. While Detroit was a more broken team when Develano inherited it, it took 15 years for his system to take effect. Yzerman was 32 when he won his first Cup. That said, while Vancouver was more far along than Detroit, Vancouver didn't have the same history the Red Wings did.

Vancouver doesn't have a Gordie Howe, Vancouver never had a Terry Sawchuk. We had 38 years of roulette wheels being misread, towel waving (as a result of poor officiating), numerous 1st round draft picks squandered, players run out of town by egomanical management, rival players signed to big monetary deals who subsequently mailed it in, and one goalie with tenure on the team worth of note at all, with 2 Cinderella runs, and a few damn good hard-working players who are rightfully revered by fans.

We needed Mike Gillis at the time and that's exactly what we got. Everything that encompassed old management or resembled it in any way was a yin and Gillis was the yang. And so far, he's only produced: 4 Division Titles (for every year he's been at the helm), 2 Art Ross Trophy winners, 1 Ted Lindsay winner, 1 Selke Trophy winner, 2 Jennings award winners, 2 President's Trophy winners, 1 Western Conference Champion.

Say what you want about Gillis, he's got results out of his team. Some say it's not his team but I disagree. Sedins have taken the next step into superstardom, from day 1 Gillis challenged them to be better, brought in personnel to help on and off the ice (Ask a Sedin what having Sundin here meant to them. Do it.), he's signed players like Kesler and Burrows to excellent multi-year contracts, he's turned past draft pick busts into defensive gold, he's developed Edler into what he is today and managed to sign him to a multi-year deal before he became what he is today. He signed Luongo to a deal in which we saved around 1.25 million dollars a year in cap, people say it's a bad deal but I see right through their 'logic'. With those cap savings he went out and got players like Hamhuis, Malhotra, Ehrhoff, Garrison, Lapierre, Higgins, Rome and for the most part retained them for beauties of deals. He made hard decisions like jettisoning Ohlund, letting go Naslund, Morrison to go after new blood. He doesn't always get it right (Hodgson, Ballard, Johnson, Hordichuk) but unlike his those before him he is willing to admit fault and learn from his mistakes. Call it Burke's team or Nonis' team but Gillis has done more than any of those two could imagine together. Sometimes you just got to be very patient and keep a high head.

Also, we don't have a Maltby yet. I would have said Malhotra was a better version of that before the injury. Who knows? We might see old Manny again this season.

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01-18-2013, 05:21 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmyheadhurts View Post
Homegrown talent up front:

Sedin
Sedin
Burrows
Raymond
Kesler
Hansen


That's 5/6 of our top 6 and back to back, Presidents winning team. Canucks have also been one the highest scoring teams in the league for the past 3 seasons.

Is the Canucks draft record up for debate? Absolutely. However, AV has done an excellent job developing the talent that we have drafted. Do people really expect to be a top team year after year, with late draft picks and still have a full cupboard of young talent for us to insert in the lineup?

If the Canucks, specifically AV, have done such a poor job developing our players, where is the list of Canuck draft picks that have left our system and are having roaring success with another franchise?

Grabner? The one dimensional player that was waived twice before finding a home on the worst run team in the league? Is that it?


You can make a lot of arguments that our drafting has been poor but there is no evidence, empirical or otherwise, that AV hates young talent or has no clue how to develop them. It a fantastical narrative that has somehow gained footing, despite the fact that no one has been able to make any kind of convincing argument or provided any proof to support it.
See, I am trying to move this away from a polarized debate and you're moving it right back into one.

1 - "We are excellent at developing young players"
2 - "AV hates young players"

So you've just lumped me into #2, when what I am saying is that #1 is true for a very specific subset of players, none of which are skilled forwards.

I have a problem with us using draft picks from 2003 and earlier as examples of developing young talent. Sure, this is a surface justification because you can come up with some dudes we drafted who turned out...9 years ago.

Three of your examples are 30+, and the other two are <20 goal scorers. That's your argument for us developing young talent? Specifically young offensive talent?

It always disturbs me to use Kesler, the Sedins and Burrows. Yeah of course they count. But where are our young guys, guys under 24? We need these guys continually coming up in the pipeline. What we have instead are late round guys that we are feverishly hoping will eventually score 20 goals....maybe.

Look at our young D - lots of guys who look promising coming up. That is great! Corrado, Tanev, Connauton, they look like they at least have a shot.

All I'm saying is that we aren't doing as good a job in overall player development as some would think, and the thing we're missing is also the hardest thing to obtain - skilled forwards.

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Old
01-18-2013, 05:21 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Just because he had certain opinions 2 years ago doesn't mean he hasn't adjusted them since then. It's a learning process and I'm sure he has different thoughts on how a team should be structured than he did in the past.

Even after they acquired Pahlsson, AV was still giving exceptionally difficult minutes to the 4th line. Perhaps the new thinking is that we can create a 4th line that can both play shutdown minutes and provide some energy? If you combined Weise, Lapierre and Malhotra you could certainly have a solid shutdown line that can provide both energy and toughness.
Thats possible, but I never got the feeling from him in the last interview I heard him give (first one back from the lockout) that anything that he thought previously was different...he seemed to consider the 1st two lines scoring lines and the bottom 6 the checking/energy players...that has always seemed to be what he wants...at least thats how it seems to me.

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01-18-2013, 05:22 PM
  #215
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I don't know why AHL players were brought to camp in the first place this season. They've had all season to evaluate them. I know you want to see how they look with NHL players but really, we didn't. It's just been practice games. They should have kept playing in Chicago.

We're talking about practice!

To say Schroeder outperformed Ebbett in the AHL is frankly false. To say he outperformed him in practice games would be true.

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01-18-2013, 05:22 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Well, just to state a few quick facts here, bear with me:

1982: Detroit hires Jimmy Develano as GM
1983: Detroit drafts Steve Yzerman
1984: Detroit makes playoffs for first time in six years
1987: Detroit wins first best-of-7 series in 21 years
1989: Develano has probably the best draft in NHL GM history
1992: Detroit starts to rise to the cream of the crop in the Campbell
1995: Detroit makes the Finals
1996: Detroit wins PT with one of the best NHL seasons ever
1997: The rest is history

It took Detroit 10 years for their system to start to pay dividends and 15 to win a Cup. While Detroit was a more broken team when Develano inherited it, it took 15 years for his system to take effect. Yzerman was 32 when he won his first Cup. That said, while Vancouver was more far along than Detroit, Vancouver didn't have the same history the Red Wings did.

Vancouver doesn't have a Gordie Howe, Vancouver never had a Terry Sawchuk. We had 38 years of roulette wheels being misread, towel waving (as a result of poor officiating), numerous 1st round draft picks squandered, players run out of town by egomanical management, rival players signed to big monetary deals who subsequently mailed it in, and one goalie with tenure on the team worth of note at all, with 2 Cinderella runs, and a few damn good hard-working players who are rightfully revered by fans.

We needed Mike Gillis at the time and that's exactly what we got. Everything that encompassed old management or resembled it in any way was a yin and Gillis was the yang. And so far, he's only produced: 4 Division Titles (for every year he's been at the helm), 2 Art Ross Trophy winners, 1 Ted Lindsay winner, 1 Selke Trophy winner, 2 Jennings award winners, 2 President's Trophy winners, 1 Western Conference Champion.

Say what you want about Gillis, he's got results out of his team. Some say it's not his team but I disagree. Sedins have taken the next step into superstardom, from day 1 Gillis challenged them to be better, brought in personnel to help on and off the ice (Ask a Sedin what having Sundin here meant to them. Do it.), he's signed players like Kesler and Burrows to excellent multi-year contracts, he's turned past draft pick busts into defensive gold, he's developed Edler into what he is today and managed to sign him to a multi-year deal before he became what he is today. He signed Luongo to a deal in which we saved around 1.25 million dollars a year in cap, people say it's a bad deal but I see right through their 'logic'. With those cap savings he went out and got players like Hamhuis, Malhotra, Ehrhoff, Garrison, Lapierre, Higgins, Rome and for the most part retained them for beauties of deals. He made hard decisions like jettisoning Ohlund, letting go Naslund, Morrison to go after new blood. He doesn't always get it right (Hodgson, Ballard, Johnson, Hordichuk) but unlike his those before him he is willing to admit fault and learn from his mistakes. Call it Burke's team or Nonis' team but Gillis has done more than any of those two could imagine together. Sometimes you just got to be very patient and keep a high head.

Also, we don't have a Maltby yet. I would have said Malhotra was a better version of that before the injury. Who knows? We might see old Manny again this season.
Wow! Very well said.

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01-18-2013, 05:22 PM
  #217
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Dissapointed that Schroeder got sent down over Ebbett, don't see the upside of taking Ebbett over Jordan.

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01-18-2013, 05:23 PM
  #218
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He didn't get dumped. He got traded for a prospect that filled an area of much greater need. Everything doesn't have to be high drama all the time.
You don't think having a centre right now would be filling a much greater need than having some toughness on the 4th line? I hate getting involved in this Hodgson drama but I still think that's a pretty lousy reason.

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01-18-2013, 05:24 PM
  #219
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Really disappointed about this. Shouldn't be surprised because it was AV making the decision. Schroeder never really had a chance to begin with.
Gillis made this decision not AV. Vigneault has been very clear in that he wanted Schroeder ahead of Ebbett but off-ice stuff was a consideration. I can't believe this narrative people are spinning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarko2004 View Post
To say Schroeder outperformed Ebbett in the AHL is frankly false.
Wrong.

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01-18-2013, 05:25 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by The Optimist View Post
Not sure Hodgson could keep up with those two speedwise. Schroeder has the potential to.
There is no way he could keep up to them speedwise and off the rush, but he's got enough skill to compliment them in other ways...it's not a likely line combo, but it wasn't even a consideration, which it should have been IMO.

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01-18-2013, 05:27 PM
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Gillis made this decision not AV.
Really? I thought it would be a decision made by AV & Gillis. They tend to always work together on roster decisions.

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01-18-2013, 05:28 PM
  #222
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Really? I thought it would be a decision made by AV & Gillis. They tend to always work together on roster decisions.
It certainly seemed to me like something that was decided based on off-ice stuff. AV stressed several times that would be a consideration and only had positive things to say about Schroeder over the past 2 days. Gillis and company are the ones that figure out the cap and roster stuff, not AV.

And I'll ask again (not you, but others who attack AV), why was Schroeder still in Vancouver at 1pm when he could be flying back to Chicago early in the morning to play in their game today. Just to make him miss that game?

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01-18-2013, 05:31 PM
  #223
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See, I am trying to move this away from a polarized debate and you're moving it right back into one.

1 - "We are excellent at developing young players"
2 - "AV hates young players"

So you've just lumped me into #2, when what I am saying is that #1 is true for a very specific subset of players, none of which are skilled forwards.

I have a problem with us using draft picks from 2003 and earlier as examples of developing young talent. Sure, this is a surface justification because you can come up with some dudes we drafted who turned out...9 years ago.

It always disturbs me to use Kesler, the Sedins and Burrows. Yeah of course they count. But where are our young guys? We need these guys continually coming up in the pipeline. What we have instead are late round guys that we are feverishly hoping will eventually score 20 goals....maybe.

Look at our young D - lots of guys who look promising coming up. That is great! Corrado, Tanev, Connauton, they look like they at least have a shot.

All I'm saying is that we aren't doing as good a job in overall player development as some would think, and the thing we're missing is also the hardest thing to obtain - skilled forwards.
Schroeder, Kassian, Jensen. There's 3 forwards that look like they have a shot.


I think you're confusing poor drafting and/or drafting in lower positions because of team success with player development. Of the players we have drafted, who's development did AV hinder and who has left our development system and gone on to great success?

Just because we aren't drafting high end offensive talent, doesn't mean that AV doesn't know how to develop it. Need I remind you that the Sedins were only 25 when AV took over, or that Kesler was projected as a 3rd line checker? Look at them now.

You can make a great argument that the Canuck drafting hasn't focused enough on skill players but I still don't see how it's an indictment of AV or our development system.

It is a polarizing debate when people say that AV hates young players or doesn't know how to develop our talent properly. It's polarizing because it's completely untrue.

Again, of the players we have drafted, who's development did AV hinder and who has left our development system and gone on to great success?

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01-18-2013, 05:33 PM
  #224
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I thought for sure they were going to send one defenseman down, makes no sense to keep 9 up with Connauton in the system (he could EASILY do what Barker does for example). Like, they got 3 spare defensemen and 0 spare forwards at the moment. I question that logic, doesn't make any sense at all.

I do hope they stop repeating "players decide who plays where, talent has no age etc etc" that they say every single training camp, as obviously contracts play such a huge role in this.

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01-18-2013, 05:34 PM
  #225
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so we are relying on Ebbet to produce offense? awesome, just ****ing awesome.

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