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Old
03-01-2013, 04:10 AM
  #751
DekeLikeYouMeanIt
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I come in peace. I think you guys need to patient with the kid (and the interim coach regarding Grigo). He has nothing to learn from the Q. It would be a waste to send him back like some are saying. Going through practices, systems and watching NHL tape are all important stepping stones aside from actual ice time. Also keep in mind that Grigo is used to playing with guys that play his East-West game. Adjustment will have to take time.

I don't necessarily agree with being a healthy scratch, but it's still better than the demotion option. Either way, best of luck to him.

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03-01-2013, 05:44 AM
  #752
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Originally Posted by DekeLikeYouMeanIt View Post
I come in peace. I think you guys need to patient with the kid (and the interim coach regarding Grigo). He has nothing to learn from the Q. It would be a waste to send him back like some are saying. Going through practices, systems and watching NHL tape are all important stepping stones aside from actual ice time. Also keep in mind that Grigo is used to playing with guys that play his East-West game. Adjustment will have to take time.

I don't necessarily agree with being a healthy scratch, but it's still better than the demotion option. Either way, best of luck to him.
Could you explain how you came to that conclusion?

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03-01-2013, 06:58 AM
  #753
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From the little I watched of Jets-Devs, even Stefan Matteau looked more NHL ready. Send the guy back already.

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03-01-2013, 07:03 AM
  #754
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He's 18, folks. I had high expectations as well. I was extremely amped up. For both he and Girgensons. Turns out I was wrong to have those expectations. Not because they aren't talented, but because they aren't necessarily ready. I won't give up on either of them, either. They are good hockey players. Girgs has looked better, for sure, but he's also in the AHL, which if Grigorenko was eligible for would be the perfect level of hockey for him right now.

He'll come around. I understand the frustrations, especially after seeing guys like Tarasenko tear it up, and Conacher, among others. But give him time.

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03-01-2013, 07:14 AM
  #755
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Originally Posted by RattleYourSabre View Post
He's 18, folks. I had high expectations as well. I was extremely amped up. For both he and Girgensons. Turns out I was wrong to have those expectations. Not because they aren't talented, but because they aren't necessarily ready. I won't give up on either of them, either. They are good hockey players. Girgs has looked better, for sure, but he's also in the AHL, which if Grigorenko was eligible for would be the perfect level of hockey for him right now.

He'll come around. I understand the frustrations, especially after seeing guys like Tarasenko tear it up, and Conacher, among others. But give him time.
I think some of the frustration stems from seeing how other talented players turned out when developed properly.

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03-01-2013, 07:36 AM
  #756
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I think some of the frustration stems from seeing how other talented players turned out when developed properly.
Oh, no doubt. But we haven't really given him time to develop at all. We're, what, 21 games into his pro career? And to top it off, the ideal level for him to play at isn't an option...

I don't disagree with being frustrated, or for frustrations on his handling. But it's still early in the process.

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03-01-2013, 08:08 AM
  #757
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I think some of the frustration stems from seeing how other talented players turned out when developed properly.
Patience, it's still really early and he was never going to take the NHL by storm, he slipped to 12th for a reason. His development will be slow, but hopefully he'll get there. I can understand being frustrated but don't get the 'his not ourperforming everyone else on the team so send him back' line. And I don't by the 'his still too raw for AHL or NHL' line. He dominated in the Q, it doesn't add up.

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03-01-2013, 08:12 AM
  #758
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Originally Posted by RazielMoshman View Post
Patience, it's still really early and he was never going to take the NHL by storm, he slipped to 12th for a reason. His development will be slow, but hopefully he'll get there. I can understand being frustrated but don't get the 'his not ourperforming everyone else on the team so send him back' line. And I don't by the 'his still too raw for AHL or NHL' line. He dominated in the Q, it doesn't add up.
He didn't dominate in the Q to the degree you seem to imply. He's not ready for the NHL, which means he's much the same as almost every other 18-year old out there. Hell, most guys aren't debuting in the league until their 20 or 21 or even older, after they continued to improve at the level they were at -- which Grigorenko could do in the Q -- and have grown fully into their bodies. Adult males don't stop physically maturing until their about 22. There is nothing wrong with where he is physically, there is something wrong about trying to force the issue and keep him on the roster, depriving him of icetime and a chance to dominate against his peers.

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03-01-2013, 08:28 AM
  #759
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I think 30 goals and 50 points in 30 games in the Q is pretty close to dominating it. If its about learning how to play effective defense, can we send Hodgson to the Q with him?

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03-01-2013, 08:37 AM
  #760
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I think 30 goals and 50 points in 30 games in the Q is pretty close to dominating it. If its about learning how to play effective defense, can we send Hodgson to the Q with him?
He was producing at a rate that a top-12 pick on a very good team should. It's not as if him being in Quebec was pointless.

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03-01-2013, 08:43 AM
  #761
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We have been the worst team in the east for most of the season, and we have a ton of guys who look like garbage... i would expect an 18 year old rookie to look like garbage too....

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03-01-2013, 09:18 AM
  #762
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I think some of the frustration stems from seeing how other talented players turned out when developed properly.
What does that mean though? Seguin was brought along slowly in the NHL playing limited minutes and scratched semi-regularly, in his rookie season, and he seems to be turning out fine. We don't know that this path won't work for the kid. Some people are just mad he's not playing lots of minutes/scoring lots of points right now...Sometimes I'm one of them (hey, it'd be nice to see the kid on the PP, it's not like he can make it worse). But, really, who knows? Maybe Grigs is learning a ton about how to be a professional and learning a ton with the trainers/in practices. Maybe that experience is more valuable to his development than a few more months of being able to score almost at will in the Q would be.

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03-01-2013, 09:27 AM
  #763
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What does that mean though? Seguin was brought along slowly in the NHL playing limited minutes and scratched semi-regularly, in his rookie season, and he seems to be turning out fine. We don't know that this path won't work for the kid. Some people are just mad he's not playing lots of minutes/scoring lots of points right now...Sometimes I'm one of them (hey, it'd be nice to see the kid on the PP, it's not like he can make it worse). But, really, who knows? Maybe Grigs is learning a ton about how to be a professional and learning a ton with the trainers/in practices. Maybe that experience is more valuable to his development than a few more months of being able to score almost at will in the Q would be.
Seguin was ready to play in the NHL. Subjectively, he was light years ahead of where Grigorenko is. He was also out on the wing where he couldn't hurt the team as much with his rookie mistakes.

Whether a player is NHL ready is a case-by-case analysis. There should be enough evidence to date that Grigorenko is not NHL-ready.

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03-01-2013, 09:30 AM
  #764
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People comparing Conacher to Grigorenko need to realize that one is 5 years older than the other.

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Old
03-01-2013, 09:33 AM
  #765
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
He didn't dominate in the Q to the degree you seem to imply. He's not ready for the NHL, which means he's much the same as almost every other 18-year old out there. Hell, most guys aren't debuting in the league until their 20 or 21 or even older, after they continued to improve at the level they were at -- which Grigorenko could do in the Q -- and have grown fully into their bodies. Adult males don't stop physically maturing until their about 22. There is nothing wrong with where he is physically, there is something wrong about trying to force the issue and keep him on the roster, depriving him of icetime and a chance to dominate against his peers.
But his learning the game and sure it's a steep learning curve but his going to have to learn at some point. His denied the AHL and the jump from the Q to the NHL is going to be the same now or next year. It's a short season, it's really not going to do any harm to him unless he decides to let it.

I think it really boils down to luck, you might be right, as might I. Either way I think it won't make much difference this year, only 20 odd games left anyway. The people involved know much more than either of us so I trust them because I have no overwhelming evidence that the current path is wrong.

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03-01-2013, 09:43 AM
  #766
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Originally Posted by RazielMoshman View Post
But his learning the game and sure it's a steep learning curve but his going to have to learn at some point. His denied the AHL and the jump from the Q to the NHL is going to be the same now or next year. It's a short season, it's really not going to do any harm to him unless he decides to let it.

I think it really boils down to luck, you might be right, as might I. Either way I think it won't make much difference this year, only 20 odd games left anyway. The people involved know much more than either of us so I trust them because I have no overwhelming evidence that the current path is wrong.
The harm, again, is that he's not getting ice time and reps in game situations to improve. The old adage, "it's all about ice time" when talking about someone improving their game is tried and true for a reason: it works. Since he's not able to handle simple minutes at this level, send him back to where he will get the ice time and continue to round off the rough edges of his game. This team has almost always used a long-view for development, without exception. This season, they have rushed both of their first rounder picks into situations, a new change in tactics that flies in the face of what has worked for them in the past. Maybe it will work out. That said, the league is often littered with mediocre careers of guys who didn't build their games in the typical fashion more so than guys who debuted in the league and went on to success. I hope to hell it does work with both Grigorenko and Girgensons. I suppose I'm a traditionalist. Yet at the same time, using what we see on the ice, it looks like they've made a mistake with both of them. They don't need to turn out Jiri Novotny 2.0 here. They need a stud creative center (and a shutdown center if we expand this out to the other G-man playing out of his element).

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03-01-2013, 10:08 AM
  #767
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The harm, again, is that he's not getting ice time and reps in game situations to improve. The old adage, "it's all about ice time" when talking about someone improving their game is tried and true for a reason: it works. Since he's not able to handle simple minutes at this level, send him back to where he will get the ice time and continue to round off the rough edges of his game. This team has almost always used a long-view for development, without exception. This season, they have rushed both of their first rounder picks into situations, a new change in tactics that flies in the face of what has worked for them in the past. Maybe it will work out. That said, the league is often littered with mediocre careers of guys who didn't build their games in the typical fashion more so than guys who debuted in the league and went on to success. I hope to hell it does work with both Grigorenko and Girgensons. I suppose I'm a traditionalist. Yet at the same time, using what we see on the ice, it looks like they've made a mistake with both of them. They don't need to turn out Jiri Novotny 2.0 here. They need a stud creative center (and a shutdown center if we expand this out to the other G-man playing out of his element).
It really isn't all about ice time. His going to have to learn the game at some point, and I've seen nothing to indicate that now is a bad time for that to happen.

I'm sure we both hope both G's turn out ok, and neither of us can influence any decision regarding their future. I'm also pretty sure neither of us are going to change our opinions so agree to disagree and leave it be?

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03-01-2013, 03:00 PM
  #768
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So is there any doubt now that he really is 18 years old, and not 20 (or older)?

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03-01-2013, 03:26 PM
  #769
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So is there any doubt now that he really is 18 years old, and not 20 (or older)?


If he's 20, holy crap did the Sabres get boned.

If Rolston's knack for developing kids is true, maybe in this case we're lucky he's head coach, instead of Lindy.

I agree with those who wish him to be sent back, it's a bummer watching him struggle on the 4th line. Would much rather see Cody back up here and on that line.

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03-02-2013, 04:34 PM
  #770
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Could you explain how you came to that conclusion?
I'm a bit late but... Listen I can see the argument for him to go back and improve defensively but 2 things:
1. Coach Roy plays run and gun.
2. He needs experience against faster, bigger and more talented players. He toyed with the Q for quite some time now.

This is where the CHL-NHL agreement is detrimental as I think Grigo would be in the right environment in the AHL.

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03-03-2013, 10:23 AM
  #771
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He seems to be getting better. How patient are we going to have to be with him until we see Girgorenko the NHL star?

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03-03-2013, 10:46 AM
  #772
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He seems to be getting better. How patient are we going to have to be with him until we see Girgorenko the NHL star?
Who knows when it'll all click for him? I suspect another full off-season or 2 with Buffalo's trainers will make a noticeable impact in his strength and skating. His vision and hands are fine, and I imagine the offense will come as be builds up confidence and his ability to make decisions with the puck at an NHL pace.

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03-03-2013, 11:01 AM
  #773
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I think 30 goals and 50 points in 30 games in the Q is pretty close to dominating it. If its about learning how to play effective defense, can we send Hodgson to the Q with him?
How do you expect hodgson to learn D in the q. I'm starting to question the intelligence of half your posts. And on the point of the topic at hand the major set back in grigs game is his speed which is not NHL caliber right now.


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03-03-2013, 11:30 AM
  #774
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I'm a bit late but... Listen I can see the argument for him to go back and improve defensively but 2 things:
1. Coach Roy plays run and gun.
2. He needs experience against faster, bigger and more talented players. He toyed with the Q for quite some time now.

This is where the CHL-NHL agreement is detrimental as I think Grigo would be in the right environment in the AHL.
1. Isn't as true as before, had to adapt following the huge slump earlier in the season, and now it's going very well.

2. I'll take it that to toy with is the same as to dominate... and in that case, I can only disagree. He was trying to learn how to play better along the boards, in traffic and those kind of things, and he was actually showing encouraging signs. He wasn't able to do whatever he wanted on the ice.

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03-03-2013, 12:33 PM
  #775
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1. Isn't as true as before, had to adapt following the huge slump earlier in the season, and now it's going very well.

2. I'll take it that to toy with is the same as to dominate... and in that case, I can only disagree. He was trying to learn how to play better along the boards, in traffic and those kind of things, and he was actually showing encouraging signs. He wasn't able to do whatever he wanted on the ice.
Learning to play the boards, through traffic, etc is something I really don't see much in the CHL games I've seen, the bolded part it so true. Unless a player can legitimately do that, toying and dominating is not happening.

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