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Old
01-18-2013, 12:42 PM
  #101
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Ken Holland is good at what he does, making Mr. Illitch money. How does he make Mr. I money? By making the playoffs.

The spoiled little kid in me who's never seen bad Red Wing hockey says it's a sad day when everyone is happy just to make the playoffs. The realist in me says all good things eventually come to an end.

Said this in the Boso trade thread; tanking for a couple years (taking your lumps) and stocking up on draft picks is the way to become elite in the NHL now e.g. Pittsburgh and Edmonton

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01-18-2013, 12:48 PM
  #102
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Since when Edmonton became elite?

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01-18-2013, 12:52 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by JDrake28 View Post
Ken Holland is good at what he does, making Mr. Illitch money. How does he make Mr. I money? By making the playoffs.

The spoiled little kid in me who's never seen bad Red Wing hockey says it's a sad day when everyone is happy just to make the playoffs. The realist in me says all good things eventually come to an end.

Said this in the Boso trade thread; tanking for a couple years (taking your lumps) and stocking up on draft picks is the way to become elite in the NHL now e.g. Pittsburgh and Edmonton
My big concern is the DRW don't become the Pistons, a team that will not commit to a full on rebuild when it becomes obvious one is necessary. That's clearly not the case in Detroit with the Wings but I'd accept it if it were to become necessary. The thing is you'd be better prepared for one of you knew exactly what you have in Nyquist, Mursak, Tatar, etc. So if the goal is merely to be a low seed playoff team that doesn't inspire the city and get the fan base to turn out in large numbers. Just look at the Tigers, they've becomea very successful team because they were able to draft guys like JV and trade for guys like Sanchez and sign Fielder.

Starting tomorrow we'll find out what we can expect going forward from this organization.

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01-18-2013, 12:56 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by kerjuxaxaxa View Post
Since when Edmonton became elite?
Become elite, meaning in a couple years

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01-18-2013, 12:58 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
You seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get at. Holland's insanity is what he has been doing the past four years. Making minor changes to a roster in the hopes that its good enough to win a cup. It has failed every time and the Wings have gotten progressively worse.

He turned a cup contending roster into a maybe playoff team that is built to lose in the 1st round by adding players like Samuelsson and Quincey to replace Hossa and Lidstrom.

I have already conceded th Kings rebuilt through sucking, but their Cup win was not a fluke or a dice roll......errr parity.
No, Kings cup wasn't a fluke, they tanked for a decade to get that rare opportunity. As far as your other points.... you're mad at Holland because players get older and the NHL has salary restrictions that handcuff teams?

Wings didn't have much talent in the farm system until the last 4 years or so... to say Holland did nothing to help the team is bull****. He turned our pathetic farm system to arguably the top 5 without any top 15 draft picks.

It's not like Holland can trade Brayden Schenn's for Mike Richards' all day long and twice on Sunday like other teams can. Wings just don't have the assets.

It seems like you are mad at Holland for not tanking for the past 10 years to get top draft picks. Honest question, are you really suggesting you would rather give up the last two Stanley Cups so Holland would have assets to trade so they can be more like the Kings? Your argument doesn't make sense.

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01-18-2013, 01:03 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
My big concern is the DRW don't become the Pistons, a team that will not commit to a full on rebuild when it becomes obvious one is necessary. That's clearly not the case in Detroit with the Wings but I'd accept it if it were to become necessary. The thing is you'd be better prepared for one of you knew exactly what you have in Nyquist, Mursak, Tatar, etc. So if the goal is merely to be a low seed playoff team that doesn't inspire the city and get the fan base to turn out in large numbers. Just look at the Tigers, they've becomea very successful team because they were able to draft guys like JV and trade for guys like Sanchez and sign Fielder.

Starting tomorrow we'll find out what we can expect going forward from this organization.
As long as Babcock is coaching I don't think we have to worry about becoming the Pistons. He has a way of getting the most out of players he's been handed.

Question is; How long until Babcock becomes fed up with it. He has all the trophies he needs.

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01-18-2013, 01:05 PM
  #107
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It's called a cap compliance buyout. May not be economic, but then again we don't have any problem contracts. So screw economic use.
I read where the player had to make $3 mil to qualify to be bought out. Anyone else read that?

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01-18-2013, 01:21 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
No, Kings cup wasn't a fluke, they tanked for a decade to get that rare opportunity. As far as your other points.... you're mad at Holland because players get older and the NHL has salary restrictions that handcuff teams?

Wings didn't have much talent in the farm system until the last 4 years or so... to say Holland did nothing to help the team is bull****. He turned our pathetic farm system to arguably the top 5 without any top 15 draft picks.

It's not like Holland can trade Brayden Schenn's for Mike Richards' all day long and twice on Sunday like other teams can. Wings just don't have the assets.

It seems like you are mad at Holland for not tanking for the past 10 years to get top draft picks. Honest question, are you really suggesting you would rather give up the last two Stanley Cups so Holland would have assets to trade so they can be more like the Kings? Your argument doesn't make sense.
Lets be honest here:

It is only the past 1 season or so where we have started to look weak:

2008: Stanley cup champions (which might i add had almost the identical roster to today - same core of Z,D, Flip, franzen with maltby draper samuelsson and of course Rafalski, Lidstrom, Stuart, chelios)
Basically all those players we lost retired.

2009: We added Hossa (kinda a big deal) and went to the cup final again.

2010: We lose to San Jose 4-1 2nd round (this is the year they have the big 6 up front playing great)

2011: We lose to San Jose 4-3 2nd round (Darn, it appears San Jose is a pretty good team - and they are)

2012: We lose to Nashville first round, and this is around the time we start really doubting the team.

Honestly we have had it pretty good, I have not seen a good time before now to really stop signing UFA's but this year I would finally like to see some of the young guys compete.

4-5 years ago we are basically the best team in hockey with pittsburgh, now we have fallen down to a contender (somewhere MTL and TOR would love to be). Holland has done a GJ IMO, but its time for him to start jettisoning a few of the extra forwards. I don't watch our prospects enough to know if they are really good. But would be nice to see them play tatar and nyquist more this year, so they become tradable or make the team legitimately.

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01-18-2013, 01:24 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
My big concern is the DRW don't become the Pistons, a team that will not commit to a full on rebuild when it becomes obvious one is necessary. That's clearly not the case in Detroit with the Wings but I'd accept it if it were to become necessary. The thing is you'd be better prepared for one of you knew exactly what you have in Nyquist, Mursak, Tatar, etc. So if the goal is merely to be a low seed playoff team that doesn't inspire the city and get the fan base to turn out in large numbers. Just look at the Tigers, they've becomea very successful team because they were able to draft guys like JV and trade for guys like Sanchez and sign Fielder.

Starting tomorrow we'll find out what we can expect going forward from this organization.
There is a good discussion going in Hockey History here about why the Red Wings were better than Colorado in the 90s... it came down to spending and how young players were used. Avalanche saw them as expendable asset. Mark Parrish traded for Tom Fitzgerald. Robyn Regehr for rental Fleury. Pahlsson for Claude Lapointe. Later, Tom Gilbert for Tommy Salo. Avs kept looking for bandaids and old guys who could be depth today but didn't have depth for tomorrow. Red Wings are the opposite... Franzen replaced Holmstrom in the top six... Hudler was given the chance to follow Lang.

Red Wings today need to hold the ship. Don't panic and ship kids like Tvrdon off because you have lots of promise today. Keep him and the Jurcos and the Murasks and whoever. Odds are a top kid comes up short. No problem, you should have three others to try for same job. If not you have an issue.

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01-18-2013, 01:36 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
No, Kings cup wasn't a fluke, they tanked for a decade to get that rare opportunity. As far as your other points.... you're mad at Holland because players get older and the NHL has salary restrictions that handcuff teams?

Wings didn't have much talent in the farm system until the last 4 years or so... to say Holland did nothing to help the team is bull****. He turned our pathetic farm system to arguably the top 5 without any top 15 draft picks.

It's not like Holland can trade Brayden Schenn's for Mike Richards' all day long and twice on Sunday like other teams can. Wings just don't have the assets.

It seems like you are mad at Holland for not tanking for the past 10 years to get top draft picks. Honest question, are you really suggesting you would rather give up the last two Stanley Cups so Holland would have assets to trade so they can be more like the Kings? Your argument doesn't make sense.
This farm system is still garbage. What prospects have made any real impact during the past five years? Justin Abdelkader?

I dont care about potential. Give me tangible results. Brendan Smith should have been in the NHL last year, but instead he gets thrown into the fire and is expected to be the savior of the Wings blue line.

Gustav Nyquist is gonna rot in the NHL another year thanks to Holland signing Mikael Samuelsson.

Extended Bert for two years......hooray. Why isnt Tatar taking his roster spot?

You talk about this insane prospect pool, yet Holland refuses to let any of the prospects play. The Wings are no longer in the position to let their prospects sit in AHL for half a decade.

Ken Holland's excuse when the Wings were up at the cap was, "They didnt have any cap space to sign anyone of substance."

His excuse after they had cap space was, "It was too expensive to sign anyone of substance."

Why didnt he sign Ehrhoff? That is a great cap hit. He didnt feel like trading a 50th round pick for his negotiating rights? If you are going to wait for the big fish to hit the market, "Suter" and you dont offer the most money, what is the point of waiting for those big fish? Everyone is going to be offering max money. Only old players who want to retire still want to play for the Red Wings. Ken Holland has turned this place into a retirement community. He low balls all the FA's and expects them to take the Red Wing discount.

His offer to Parise was laughable. It was an empty gesture on Holland's part.

This clip from Curb Your Enthusiasm is what i am referring to when it comes to the Parise offer. "An empty gesture"





Why not sign Semin for one year? You have the cap space. Instead, he signs Sammy for two years for a guy who is on a 35+ contract.

Ken Holland has made a ton of poor decisions since their last trip to the Finals, and it is his fault the team is a fringe playoff team at this point.

I give him all the credit for being the architect for those four cups, and i will give him all the credit for turning the Wings into garbage the past four years.


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01-18-2013, 01:36 PM
  #111
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I'm not even gonna bother responding to this nonsense anymore.
LOL.

I'm usually a minority voice on issues on this board.

Though, that's gradually changing as some of the flaws I've pointed out are too obvious to ignore.

And on this particular issue, I'd say the majority of Wings fans at HFboards agree with me.

There was no need to sign Sammy and/or Bert this year.

We're playing in the 2012-13 season. You have to go back to the 2005 draft to find an Wings pick who has established himself in the NHL.

2006 -- We traded Mathtias. Mursak still hasn't had a legit opportunity. Emmerton wasn't getting much of a look at 8 minutes a night. Axelsson and Larsson are guys with potential NHL caliber skill and smelled the NHL

2007-- Brendan Smith, widely considered our best prospect and, in some circles, a top prospect in the game, played five full seasons in college and the AHL. From his draft, here are the number of JUST DEFENSEMEN with more NHL experience -- Alzner, Gunnarsson, Subban, Cole, Blum, Kampfer, Falk, Braun, Aulie, Weller, Martinez, Ellerby, McDonagh, Shattenkirk.
Of those guys, Cole, Blum, Ellerby, McDonagh and Shattenkirk and Alzner were drafted higher.
How about Joakim Andersson? He turns 24 in a couple weeks. This guy wasn't ready for a 4th line role? Really, he was only supposed to have 3/4th line upside. So what else does he need to do in Grand Rapids? If I was Andersson I'd get the hell out of this organization anyway I could, because

2008 - Gustav Nyquist... 23 years old and has 18 games to his name. He spent one too many years in college, and I said so at the time. You look a guy like Adam Henrique. He played two years of junior after his draft and then played 73 games in the AHL before he was given a shot on the Devils last year...and played a significant role on the Stanley Cup finalist. A guy like Derek Stepan... Younger than Nyquist and has 164 games to his name and played in 20 playoff games last spring.

By now, everyone with real promise from those drafts should have gotten a legit look in the NHL.
We're still debating on Mursak...and that Smith is just now getting his real look, and the Nyquist is heading down to the AHL unless there are injury problems.

That's poor asset management.

Ideally our lines coming into this year would have been...
Nyquist (year 2) Datsyuk Franzen
Flip Zetterberg Brunner
Cleary Helm Mursak (Year 3)
Tatar (rookie) Andersson (Year 2) Abdelkader
No Bertuzzi. No Sammy.
You've still got Miller/Eaves and even Emmerton on the bench. You've got callups like Sheahan and Ferraro.
If for some reason, one of those prospects like Mursak or Andersson just wasn't working, then you could have addressed that via trade or free agency or waivers.

And then next year... when Clearly leaves. you've got Ferraro and Sheanahn and Janrkrok pushing for a job. Maybe you let Flip go and spend that money on a primetime defenseman.


Ken Holland likes to say, you want 2 NHLers out of a draft. What's the ****ing point if you never put them in the NHL?

If you want 2 NHLers per draft, then you should be introducing 2 rookies every year (on average) if you're drafting well.

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01-18-2013, 01:47 PM
  #112
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Lets be honest here:

It is only the past 1 season or so where we have started to look weak:

2008: Stanley cup champions (which might i add had almost the identical roster to today - same core of Z,D, Flip, franzen with maltby draper samuelsson and of course Rafalski, Lidstrom, Stuart, chelios)
Basically all those players we lost retired.

2009: We added Hossa (kinda a big deal) and went to the cup final again.

2010: We lose to San Jose 4-1 2nd round (this is the year they have the big 6 up front playing great)

2011: We lose to San Jose 4-3 2nd round (Darn, it appears San Jose is a pretty good team - and they are)

2012: We lose to Nashville first round, and this is around the time we start really doubting the team.

Honestly we have had it pretty good, I have not seen a good time before now to really stop signing UFA's but this year I would finally like to see some of the young guys compete.

4-5 years ago we are basically the best team in hockey with pittsburgh, now we have fallen down to a contender (somewhere MTL and TOR would love to be). Holland has done a GJ IMO, but its time for him to start jettisoning a few of the extra forwards. I don't watch our prospects enough to know if they are really good. But would be nice to see them play tatar and nyquist more this year, so they become tradable or make the team legitimately.
Holland should have have seen the trend after the first loss to SJ and begun making changes.

In the salary cap age... in the age of parity... You're not only going to win with roster strength/talent.

You win with hunger. Teams are so evenly matched, that health and desire become critical.

If you have two evenly matched teams going head to head, the hungrier team has an advantage in the Stanley Cup Finals.

You have to go back to 1998 to find the last back-to-back championship. And sadly, that team was fueled by tragedy, IMO.

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01-18-2013, 02:07 PM
  #113
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It seems to me that Ken Holland is less and less relevant to where this team is at. He hasn't been the guy in charge of building the team's future, and so he doesn't really value slotting those guys in. Hopefully Holland will recognize this and step aside for Nill.

But who am I kidding? Holland won't do that. He's going to ride this thing into the ground.

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01-18-2013, 02:10 PM
  #114
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Ken Holland is good at what he does, making Mr. Illitch money. How does he make Mr. I money? By making the playoffs.

The spoiled little kid in me who's never seen bad Red Wing hockey says it's a sad day when everyone is happy just to make the playoffs. The realist in me says all good things eventually come to an end.

Said this in the Boso trade thread; tanking for a couple years (taking your lumps) and stocking up on draft picks is the way to become elite in the NHL now e.g. Pittsburgh and Edmonton
The Flyers and Bruins didn't go that route. Bottoming out isn't the only way to go.

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01-18-2013, 02:15 PM
  #115
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It seems to me that Ken Holland is less and less relevant to where this team is at. He hasn't been the guy in charge of building the team's future, and so he doesn't really value slotting those guys in. Hopefully Holland will recognize this and step aside for Nill.

But who am I kidding? Holland won't do that. He's going to ride this thing into the ground.
i'm just worried that Nill will leave someday to go be a GM for some other team

that would be a disaster

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01-18-2013, 02:19 PM
  #116
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I give him all the credit for being the architect for those four cups, and i will give him all the credit for turning the Wings into garbage the past four years.
Hah, garbage? The Wings have underwhelmed us the past few years based on the first few years since the first few years of the lockout, but calling the Wings garbage is bordering on hysterics.

The Wings haven't been aggressive at all since the cap was implemented and while Holland has made some nice moves along the way, I think that was more because the Wings figured out the cap system faster than a lot of other teams.

The Wings are middle of the pack now, no question, and they have been for years. But the Wings still have pieces to make a run, a lot of the very good teams right now were teams who were terrible for many years. I'll take the Wings situation the past decade over a lot of other teams who are better than us right now.

I don't think Holland is doing a great job at the moment, but I also don't believe he's content merely making the playoffs.

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01-18-2013, 02:19 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by JDrake28 View Post
Said this in the Boso trade thread; tanking for a couple years (taking your lumps) and stocking up on draft picks is the way to become elite in the NHL now e.g. Pittsburgh and Edmonton
As pointed out we don't know that Edmonton is elite yet. You also could become the Islanders, Jackets or Leafs. The problem with tanking to win is it is terribly reliable on who is going to be around that year and now a lottery system with 14 teams. It isn't just the process I hate, but really the idea that it is going to work just like you planned it.


On the original question Holland also said we could lead the conference. We will all see if the two way talent combined with this very mobile defense works out. It could or it very well could not stand up to the heat. The important thing for me if it doesn't is that they become sellers. Not pull a panic move and trade away a bunch of young promising players.

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01-18-2013, 02:21 PM
  #118
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Hah, garbage? The Wings have underwhelmed us the past few years based on the first few years since the first few years of the lockout, but calling the Wings garbage is bordering on hysterics.

The Wings haven't been aggressive at all since the cap was implemented and while Holland has made some nice moves along the way, I think that was more because the Wings figured out the cap system faster than a lot of other teams.

The Wings are middle of the pack now, no question, and they have been for years. But the Wings still have pieces to make a run, a lot of the very good teams right now were teams who were terrible for many years. I'll take the Wings situation the past decade over a lot of other teams who are better than us right now.

I don't think Holland is doing a great job at the moment, but I also don't believe he's content merely making the playoffs.
Sorry, i was over exaggerating. Mediocre is the better word. Although a fringe playoff team like Calgary is far worse than being the Edmonton Oilers, and i would never want to see that happen to the Wings. Give me a quick death over a slow death.

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01-18-2013, 02:22 PM
  #119
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Holland should have have seen the trend after the first loss to SJ and begun making changes.
Really? Stanley cup, stanley cup final, then 2nd round exit and you are supposed to see the trend??

The truth is more like 3 playoff exits in a row, and alot of 23-24 year old rookies ready to come in.

The only real mistake i see is this past offseason. Signing too many forwards and thus shutting down the ability to play ANY of the rookies.



You also have to realize, if we were to "fix" the team "your way" we could trade sammy, bert and miller

and bring in tatar, mursak, nyquist, its very possible we miss the playoffs and do horribly. Then in the 20/20 hindsight you would be yelling at him for throwing the rookies in before they were ready and of course for not signing any big name FA's etc etc.

I do agree I would prefer the 2nd option. But "Detroit sucking for 4 years?" no no, its more like 1 weaker than normal.

Sorry to say but we are just running out of talent on these low draft picks, its also possible that none of our rookies can actually play in the NHL (tatar, mursak, emmerton). They might all be NHL busts. But I would like to see them played for 1 year to prove it. Maybe all these hockey coaches they have can determine that with fewer games, I dont know.

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01-18-2013, 02:24 PM
  #120
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Really? Stanley cup, stanley cup final, then 2nd round exit and you are supposed to see the trend??

The truth is more like 3 playoff exits in a row, and alot of 23-24 year old rookies ready to come in.

The only real mistake i see is this past offseason. Signing too many forwards and thus shutting down the ability to play ANY of the rookies.



You also have to realize, if we were to "fix" the team "your way" we could trade sammy, bert and miller

and bring in tatar, mursak, nyquist, its very possible we miss the playoffs and do horribly. Then in the 20/20 hindsight you would be yelling at him for throwing the rookies in before they were ready and of course for not signing any big name FA's etc etc.

I do agree I would prefer the 2nd option. But "Detroit sucking for 4 years?" no no, its more like 1 weaker than normal.

Sorry to say but we are just running out of talent on these low draft picks, its also possible that none of our rookies can actually play in the NHL (tatar, mursak, emmerton). They might all be NHL busts. But I would like to see them played for 1 year to prove it. Maybe all these hockey coaches they have can determine that with fewer games, I dont know.
Not making the playoffs and figuring out if you have any worthwhile prospects > Making the playoffs and losing in the 1st round with Sammy, Bert and Cleary.

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01-18-2013, 02:25 PM
  #121
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I have a feeling next season is when we really see the big youth movement push. Holland is probably using this year as an extended tryout for everyone to decide who stays and who goes. This year seems to be one last try at hanging on before deciding the future of the team. Filppula, Cleary, White, Howard UFAs and then Datsyuk, Quincey, Ericsson the season after. With the cap drop it'll be the perfect time to start the overhaul. Especially if extending Datsyuk seems unlikely. The offseason before the 2014-15 season is when you might see the huge overhaul of the roster depending on what Pavel decides to do.

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01-18-2013, 02:26 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Sorry, i was over exaggerating. Mediocre is the better word. Although a fringe playoff team like Calgary is far worse than being the Edmonton Oilers, and i would never want to see that happen to the Wings. Give me a quick death over a slow death.
Calgary hasn't made the playoffs since 2009-2010 - the Wings are no where near Calgary Flames territory.

While I get your point and I don't necessarily view the Wings in the same light as the Flyers, Kings, Cancuks, Penguins etc... I don't think they are far off from what the Devils did last year.

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01-18-2013, 02:29 PM
  #123
FissionFire
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Not making the playoffs and figuring out if you have any worthwhile prospects > Making the playoffs and losing in the 1st round with Sammy, Bert and Cleary.
Maybe from a prospect development standpoint, but don't forget there is still the business aspect. With the Wings paying even more into revenue sharing that before it becomes that much more important for them to make the playoffs to boost income. Every single home playoff game is just icing on the cake for the business aspect of it. Not to mention the players themselves would like to get the extra income from a playoff share I'd imagine. How much revenue does a home playoff generate? Assuming it's 1M in total revenue simply making the playoffs is an extra 2M guaranteed income right there, and all at a time when player salaries are already paid out so in essence the expense of players is 0. Players are playing for free and teams get to pocket all the non-shared revenue.

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01-18-2013, 02:50 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
There is a good discussion going in Hockey History here about why the Red Wings were better than Colorado in the 90s... it came down to spending and how young players were used. Avalanche saw them as expendable asset. Mark Parrish traded for Tom Fitzgerald. Robyn Regehr for rental Fleury. Pahlsson for Claude Lapointe. Later, Tom Gilbert for Tommy Salo. Avs kept looking for bandaids and old guys who could be depth today but didn't have depth for tomorrow. Red Wings are the opposite... Franzen replaced Holmstrom in the top six... Hudler was given the chance to follow Lang.

Red Wings today need to hold the ship. Don't panic and ship kids like Tvrdon off because you have lots of promise today. Keep him and the Jurcos and the Murasks and whoever. Odds are a top kid comes up short. No problem, you should have three others to try for same job. If not you have an issue.
That's a good point. Many of us are not pushing to trade prospects, rather we are pushing for prospects to begin their NHL careers. Both Gus Nyquist and Brendan Smith are good candidates to follow in Jimmy Howard's shoes by becoming older Calder candidates after extended AHL careers. Tomas Tatar probably doesn't have much more finishing up to do in the A; he's a third liner and would fit in nicely on Darren Helm's wing. Why not make that happen now rather than later.

Bringing in Samuelsson and extending Bert simply indicates the goal is only to make the playoffs. There is very little risk but also not much in the way of reward. The team as currently constituted could probably make it in as a 7th or 8th seed and would be expected to lose in the first round unless Howard is dominant. However if Gus is on the team there's a chance he has an Adam Henrique type season and playoffs and helps go on an unexpected playoff run. That ain't happening with Sammy, Bert or Cleary. Sorry if that hurts some feelings around here. The NHL is a young man's game and some of our best younger players are spending a disproportionate part of their youth getting "over-ripe".

Most of us are not ready to storm the DRW front offices with pitchforks and torches. We understand the organization is very well run and you are correct that they completely changed their approach to drafting and prospects once the salary cap was put into place. Prior to the cap the Wings would never think twice about trading a prospect to bring in Chris Chelios and Dom Hasek and Robert Lang. We appreciate the results of having restocked the prospect pool, we just think it's Xmas morning and it's time to burst down the stairs and start ripping gifts open.

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01-18-2013, 02:57 PM
  #125
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Detest for Holland has run in cycles throughout the years. I remember vividly after the 00 and 01 playoff runs that a number of Wings fans clamored for a complete rebuild and for the team to be broken up and a lot of people didn't like Holland and thought he just rode the coattails for the 98 cup run and had no idea what he was doing. Plus, our farm system was garbage. Instead, he went for broke and brought in Hasek, Robitaille and Hull and Olausson and kept all his other old players and won the cup in 02. Stuff like that can't happen today because of the cap system, but if a number of fans got their way back then, the team would have been imploded far before then and started a full rebuild.

After quick playoff exits in 03, 04 and 06 and a very old roster, a number of fans were fed up with Holland again and wanted to tear the whole thing apart again. I doubt anyone actually believed that the Wings would actually be arguably the most successful organization from the 05-06 season to 11-12 with more playoff wins than anyone else and as just one of two teams to make the playoffs each year. After 06, a number of people wanted Datsyuk gone and hated his contract extension. The contract to Kronwall was wildly criticized. Why was Homer brought back again? When will Chelios, Draper, Maltby, etc. be let go? There was debate over re-signing Lidstrom b/c of his cap hit. Why weren't Flip and Hudler immediately given top 6 opportunities? Why weren't they more active in signing FA instead of promoting Franzen and Cleary to more advanced roles? Why was Osgood still on the roster? Why are we still trying a puck possession system when our talent doesn't call for it anymore? Then, after 06, the Wings had the most successful 3 year run than any organization has had in the salary cap era despite not going through a major rebuild and despite a number of controversial moves (like the Datsyuk extension).

The detest for Holland seems to have returned following another 3 year transition period that is similar to the playoff exits that happened in 99-01 and 03-06. In the 2 previous eras, he rebuilt on the fly without tearing it all apart and going with a huge youth movement like the fans would want and he was proven right. We'll see what happens this time around. If a number of fans had their way before, the 02 cup run never would have happened and the the 3 year stretch from 07 to 09 definitely would not have happened. Heck, Datsyuk wouldn't even be here. It's impossible to stay elite and go to conference finals and the Stanley cup finals year after year. Sustained excellence of going to the playoffs every year with several serious runs at the Cup (including 4 Cup victories) is insanely impressive. If the rebuilds and rough patches last for a couple years and consist of pretty good regular seasons and early playoff exits in the 1st or 2nd round, then that is a pretty good rebuild and much better from a fan and business perspective than blowing it up completely and being potentially awful for a few years with absolutely no guarantee of success on the end of the major reconstruction of the roster.


Last edited by Roy S: 01-18-2013 at 03:03 PM.
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