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01-19-2013, 02:57 AM
  #326
Jaded-Fan
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In Strait, the loss of the player is less concerning than it feeling like just the first shoe to drop in a potentially failed policy. Yeah, not all of our stellar defensive prospects are going to turn into uber pros, or even pros at all. But even with that said there is a log jam. No we will not lose a Morrow on waivers, but one or several of those type of prospects could be lost for relative peanuts as prospects do not get you all that much in return. You are not going to get a Neal for a Morrow no matter how great a prospect we think he is. Maybe if you go through two to three years of growing pains, sure.

Now back to Strait. A number of us have been singing this song for a while now and claiming that Shero's strategy had a fatal flaw. Losing Strait for nothing, as has been pointed out, is not all that important in and of itself. But for those of us singing this song, it has the feel of the beginnings of a huge 'I told you so.' And the rammifications down the road ARE potentially very serious.

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01-19-2013, 08:59 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Grabner showed a lot more of a goal scoring touch at the junior level than Marcantuoni has to date. Really disappointed with the season he's having.
It sounds cliched, but he does have all of the tools. He even plays with no fear and a lot of heart. You can't question his dedication, because by all accounts he is a workout warrior and has a great work ethic.

This is going to sound... odd... but if he wasn't so mind numbingly fast, he would probably be more effective. He just can't seem to process the game at the speed he is going.

I hate to pull out the hockey sense card, but I guess I just did...

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01-19-2013, 09:40 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
It sounds cliched, but he does have all of the tools. He even plays with no fear and a lot of heart. You can't question his dedication, because by all accounts he is a workout warrior and has a great work ethic.

This is going to sound... odd... but if he wasn't so mind numbingly fast, he would probably be more effective. He just can't seem to process the game at the speed he is going.

I hate to pull out the hockey sense card, but I guess I just did...
Which is exactly why it was stupid for the club to ask Bennett to 'speed up his game'. When you have hockey sense, the game slows down for you. Not the other way around.

Having said that, Marcantuoni better hope Bylsma is still around when he gets to training camp. He sounds like the perfect Bylsma player (run around like a chicken with his neck cut off).

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01-19-2013, 10:12 AM
  #329
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Which is exactly why it was stupid for the club to ask Bennett to 'speed up his game'. When you have hockey sense, the game slows down for you. Not the other way around.

Having said that, Marcantuoni better hope Bylsma is still around when he gets to training camp. He sounds like the perfect Bylsma player (run around like a chicken with his neck cut off).
I'm not thrilled about reading what they told BB, especially because they seem to have taken the creativity out of Tangradi's game. However, BB isn't a big monster like Tangradi, so they aren't going to force a 180 on him and make him a net crasher. He is doing well in WBS and still being creative.

I'm just giving DB credit for putting Tangradi in a position to be successful... How long it lasts, we will see. He also is giving Despres a chance long term:

Quote:
There were reports that Despres did not play quite up to the Penguins' expectations the first half of the season in Wilkes-Barre. Bylsma nixed any notion that Despres, 21, is on the roster in an unofficial extended training camp-type move.
"It's not to take a look at him; it's not to give it a try," Bylsma said. "He's played 18 games in the National Hockey League. We've taken a look at Simon in those games."
He also really seems to like BB:

Quote:
Bylsma on 2010 first-round pick Beau Bennett, a first-year pro who was assigned Thursday to Wilkes-Barre: "He's probably further along than I anticipated." Bylsma said the expectation is that Bennett will be a big-impact player in the AHL. ...
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...#ixzz2IOfwAuFk

So I'm giving him credit for now. No reason to rag on him if he is trying to change his stubborn "vet man loving" ways.

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01-19-2013, 10:15 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
In Strait, the loss of the player is less concerning than it feeling like just the first shoe to drop in a potentially failed policy. Yeah, not all of our stellar defensive prospects are going to turn into uber pros, or even pros at all. But even with that said there is a log jam. No we will not lose a Morrow on waivers, but one or several of those type of prospects could be lost for relative peanuts as prospects do not get you all that much in return. You are not going to get a Neal for a Morrow no matter how great a prospect we think he is. Maybe if you go through two to three years of growing pains, sure.

Now back to Strait. A number of us have been singing this song for a while now and claiming that Shero's strategy had a fatal flaw. Losing Strait for nothing, as has been pointed out, is not all that important in and of itself. But for those of us singing this song, it has the feel of the beginnings of a huge 'I told you so.' And the rammifications down the road ARE potentially very serious.
If anyone of our highly touted D prospects fail to beat Ben Lovejoy for a roster spot then that probably says more about them than Shero's grand plan.

I mean the only way they'd get waived, like Strait did, is if they can't beat out a #7 guy who's not really anything above a replacement level player.

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01-19-2013, 10:29 AM
  #331
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Actually he played very steady in his call-ups, and was more reliable than a good portion of our NHL blueline (albeit in limited minutes), including Lovejoy.

The number games a player has played in the NHL is not an ultimate indicator of their quality.
Meh. Lovejoy is more erratic in his play but makes up for it by keeping the puck in the attacking end of the ice much more than Strait. Either way, his loss is meaningless to this team. He had no value and there was no room for him on the roster.

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01-19-2013, 10:33 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Meh. Lovejoy is more erratic in his play but makes up for it by keeping the puck in the attacking end of the ice much more than Strait. Either way, his loss is meaningless to this team. He had no value and there was no room for him on the roster.
I'm not so sure about that. Strait is better offensively than you give him credit for. Mabel be doesn't have a great shot or top level offensive instincts but he is more than capable pinching in and such.

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01-19-2013, 10:48 AM
  #333
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I'm not so sure about that. Strait is better offensively than you give him credit for. Mabel be doesn't have a great shot or top level offensive instincts but he is more than capable pinching in and such.
Neither are great offensively but Lovejoy clearly holds an edge as he's outproduced Strait at every level. Lovejoy has also put up a respectable Corsi in his time as a Penguin, something Strait didn't do over his small stint on the team. A solid Corsi translates to being on the ice for more goals for than against, and it's no surprise to me that Lovejoy is +22 in his brief NHL career. He gets way too much flack on here when in reality he's a serviceable 6th or 7th defenseman barely making above league minimum.

The main point I'm trying to make is not so much that Lovejoy is better than Strait but that, at best, they are roughly equal. There is absolutely no reason anybody should be questioning Shero waiving him.

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01-19-2013, 10:52 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Meh. Lovejoy is more erratic in his play but makes up for it by keeping the puck in the attacking end of the ice much more than Strait. Either way, his loss is meaningless to this team. He had no value and there was no room for him on the roster.
That certainly wasn't the case with their NHL performance last year.

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01-19-2013, 11:01 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Neither are great offensively but Lovejoy clearly holds an edge as he's outproduced Strait at every level. Lovejoy has also put up a respectable Corsi in his time as a Penguin, something Strait didn't do over his small stint on the team. A solid Corsi translates to being on the ice for more goals for than against, and it's no surprise to me that Lovejoy is +22 in his brief NHL career. He gets way too much flack on here when in reality he's a serviceable 6th or 7th defenseman barely making above league minimum.

The main point I'm trying to make is not so much that Lovejoy is better than Strait but that, at best, they are roughly equal. There is absolutely no reason anybody should be questioning Shero waiving him.
They may be equal but Lovejoy has proven two playoffs in a row that he can't handle the pressure and looked terrible. Plus he's older.

So in reality they aren't equal at all. IIRC didn't Strait captain the US WJC team? If so then he clearly has some good intangibles too and has played in high pressure situations. He certainly earned a spot while Lovejoy has done everything he can to prove he doesn't deserve one.

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01-19-2013, 11:12 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
They may be equal but Lovejoy has proven two playoffs in a row that he can't handle the pressure and looked terrible. Plus he's older.

So in reality they aren't equal at all. IIRC didn't Strait captain the US WJC team? If so then he clearly has some good intangibles too and has played in high pressure situations. He certainly earned a spot while Lovejoy has done everything he can to prove he doesn't deserve one.
He's played 9 playoff games, only 2 of them coming last year. Not exactly a convincing sample size to draw any meaningful conclusions from. Same with Strait and his whopping 3 playoff games. And no, I do not care that he captained a world junior team. And seeing as how nobody offered a damn thing for him, nobody else does either.

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01-19-2013, 11:13 AM
  #337
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That certainly wasn't the case with their NHL performance last year.
Based on what?

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01-19-2013, 11:39 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm not thrilled about reading what they told BB, especially because they seem to have taken the creativity out of Tangradi's game. However, BB isn't a big monster like Tangradi, so they aren't going to force a 180 on him and make him a net crasher. He is doing well in WBS and still being creative.

I'm just giving DB credit for putting Tangradi in a position to be successful... How long it lasts, we will see. He also is giving Despres a chance long term:



He also really seems to like BB:



http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...#ixzz2IOfwAuFk

So I'm giving him credit for now. No reason to rag on him if he is trying to change his stubborn "vet man loving" ways.
Hope you're right, Jiggy. The problem is we're still 0-0 and the regular season hasn't begun yet. Let's see what happens when Tangradi goes minus-2 the first time. If he is NOT sent immediately to the press box, I'll be impressed.

Call me a skeptic.

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01-19-2013, 11:42 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
If anyone of our highly touted D prospects fail to beat Ben Lovejoy for a roster spot then that probably says more about them than Shero's grand plan.

I mean the only way they'd get waived, like Strait did, is if they can't beat out a #7 guy who's not really anything above a replacement level player.
Our "best" lineup isn't always formed. Our coach has his favorites. This has long been established by now.

So, sometimes beating out a coach's favorite is virtually an impossible task.

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01-19-2013, 11:42 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Hope you're right, Jiggy. The problem is we're still 0-0 and the regular season hasn't begun yet. Let's see what happens when Tangradi goes minus-2 the first time. If he is NOT sent immediately to the press box, I'll be impressed.

Call me a skeptic.
I just wrote about that in the GDT. I want these shots to be legit shots. Not 4-5 shifts and see if it pans out. THat's now how hockey is played. I want like a 10-15 game full on chance.

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01-19-2013, 11:48 AM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Hope you're right, Jiggy. The problem is we're still 0-0 and the regular season hasn't begun yet. Let's see what happens when Tangradi goes minus-2 the first time. If he is NOT sent immediately to the press box, I'll be impressed.

Call me a skeptic.
This will be really interesting to see.

We can talk about Shero making trades all we want, but this is the story of the year for us. Is Bylsma willing to change some of his stubborn ways? Will young guys get a real chance? Will he even consider adjustments mid game or mid series? I sure hope so because if he can overcome that flaw, I think he can be a great coach.

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01-19-2013, 11:50 AM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Based on what?
Based on Lovejoy sucking and Strait not sucking?

Is there any quantifiable way to support solid defense over a 2 or 3 game sample size? Plus/minus is about the only thing available, and Strait was a +3 while Lovejoy was a -2. Not usually a reliable stat for defensive performance, but I'd say that about matches the eyeball test.

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01-19-2013, 11:55 AM
  #343
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Bylsma was more familiar with Lovejoy than Strait so Strait went. Just like the scouting team being more familiar with Pouliot so Forsberg went. If this organization doesn't start working out of it's comfort zone it's going to fall behind.

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01-19-2013, 11:58 AM
  #344
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Bylsma was more familiar with Lovejoy than Strait so Strait went. Just like the scouting team being more familiar with Pouliot so Forsberg went. If this organization doesn't start working out of it's comfort zone it's going to fall behind.
Familiarity means nothing. What you do on the ice means everything. If that's what Bylsma is doing, he needs fired right now. I agree that the comfort zone needs to be eliminated.

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01-19-2013, 12:01 PM
  #345
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I just wrote about that in the GDT. I want these shots to be legit shots. Not 4-5 shifts and see if it pans out. THat's now how hockey is played. I want like a 10-15 game full on chance.
Unfortunately, this isn't really the best season to be giving 15 game tryouts on the second line. I hope Tangradi gets his shot too, but considering the shortened schedule, I don't see him lasting much more than 5 games if he fails to produce.

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01-19-2013, 12:05 PM
  #346
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Unfortunately, this isn't really the best season to be giving 15 game tryouts on the second line. I hope Tangradi gets his shot too, but considering the shortened schedule, I don't see him lasting much more than 5 games if he fails to produce.
Very true and good point. Usually the first 25 games in the NHL season are pretty much nothing. Now they take up more than half a season. Things will have to come together quickly.

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01-19-2013, 12:49 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Our "best" lineup isn't always formed. Our coach has his favorites. This has long been established by now.

So, sometimes beating out a coach's favorite is virtually an impossible task.
Yeah we get it Tangradi hasn't cracked the lineup. When he's lost to waivers I'll take this line of thinking seriously. We're talking about Brian Strait and projecting it to our actual prospects because ???

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01-19-2013, 01:22 PM
  #348
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An awful lot of discussion over losing a bottom pairing / depth defenseman.

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01-19-2013, 01:29 PM
  #349
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An awful lot of discussion over losing a bottom pairing / depth defenseman.
Not sure why people are having trouble with this.

3/4 of our top 4 sucked in their own end last playoffs. We just waived a rookie who was drafted in the early rounds, known for responsible defense at every previous level, and had acquitted himself well in limited NHL action last year. All in favour of another defenseman who sucked last playoffs.

How many rookie defensive defensemen step into top 4 roles at the start of any given season? Is every one that doesn't totally expendable?

We shouldn't tear our hair out over this, but it's a curious move that seems at odds with what we should be trying to address.

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01-19-2013, 01:48 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Hope you're right, Jiggy. The problem is we're still 0-0 and the regular season hasn't begun yet. Let's see what happens when Tangradi goes minus-2 the first time. If he is NOT sent immediately to the press box, I'll be impressed.

Call me a skeptic.
I'm just trying to be positive and enjoy hockey being back. I have the same worries as you DB will **** Tangradi over when, not if, he struggles. He will struggle at some point, so then we will see how DB handles it.

For now, putting Tangradi in the top six, his strong statement backing up Despres and his encouraging words about BB are all positives he may be turning a corner with trusting young guys.

If the change happens, it has to start somewhere, right?

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