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Old
01-17-2013, 09:57 PM
  #176
Jag68Sid87
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Originally Posted by clefty View Post
And Bortuzzo.
Well, but how much will Bortuzzo even play? He's probably No. 8 right now. So he's only with the team because we don't want to look like complete idiots by losing TWO D-men to waivers.

Anyway you slice it, Ben Lovejoy is not needed on this team right now...if he ever was. If we're keeping him because he's a good guy and he won't say much if he's not playing most of the time, well how is THAT going to improve the state of our defense.

These guys need to feel like their jobs are in jeopardy here...in particular the veteran shutdown pairing.

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01-17-2013, 10:00 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by clefty View Post
If you use last playoffs as a barometer as who should be around, the team would be down to you and I on the top pair.
Not far off, haha. But a few did play relatively well - Letang (sub-par for him, but still), Niskanen, Engelland, Despres, Strait, Bortuzzo.

I understand Orpik and Martin getting more leeway and time to bounce back - they're established top 4 guys at this level, even if they were godawful in the playoffs. But Lovejoy? I mean, he's never been anything special, he's 28, his skillset's redundant, and he stunk last year. If you can't make a guy like Lovejoy accountable (and you waive a prospect who fits a team need in the process), there's not much hope for turnover on the blueline moving forward.

And that's a scary thought.

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01-17-2013, 10:01 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Well, but how much will Bortuzzo even play? He's probably No. 8 right now. So he's only with the team because we don't want to look like complete idiots by losing TWO D-men to waivers.
Well Jesus, how much would Strait play if he had made the team?

****, how much is Lovejoy even going to play!!!

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Not far off, haha. But a few did play relatively well - Letang (sub-par for him, but still), Niskanen, Engelland, Despres, Strait, Bortuzzo.

I understand Orpik and Martin getting more leeway and time to bounce back - they're established top 4 guys at this level, even if they were godawful in the playoffs. But Lovejoy? I mean, he's never been anything special, he's 28, his skillset's redundant, and he stunk last year. If you can't make a guy like Lovejoy accountable (and you waive a prospect who fits a team need in the process), there's not much hope for turnover on the blueline moving forward.

And that's a scary thought.
But surely you can accept that things that went down eight days ago holds more relevance to what happened eight months ago when it comes to building a team to play a game in a day's time.

What if Lovejoy simply has had a better week than Strait?

Are the Pens brass really so hung up on veterans (and I feel dicey calling someone with less than 100 games a veteran) or are you just too caught up on prospects?


Last edited by clefty: 01-17-2013 at 10:17 PM.
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01-17-2013, 10:12 PM
  #179
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The problem is they don't have much value until they actually pan out at the NHL level. People point out the Kunitz and Neal acquisitions, but those aren't quite comparable. Whitney was one season removed from a 40-point season, and only two seasons removed from a 59-point season. Goligoski has 37 points the previous year, and already had 31 points in the 60 games before the trade to Dallas. In both cases, the defensemen we traded to land Kunitz and Neal were already established NHL defensemen.

This is why I'm still skeptical when people point to our deep prospect pool of defenseman and say "we'll just trade them like we did Whitney or Goligoski" whenever someone mentions a hole in our top six winger position, because before than can happen, those prospects will actually have to make the NHL first, and establish themselves as legitimate NHL players, not just good prospects.

Having guys like Morrow, Pouliot, Harrington, Maatta, etc. is great for our system and could potentially be trade assets ... if they pan out. But until they prove they're living up to their potential, they're not worth anything close to what Whitney or Goligoski were at the time those two were traded.
Sums up my thoughts perfectly.. I just wanted to add that it took 7 years to Goli to get to this point after being drafted and I don't think he developed that slowly.
Whitney? 7 years as well even if he was an established NHL dman about 2 years prior to that. But he had much more pedigree than Goli.
Let's not forget that it takes time to develop dmen into solid NHLer, even the most talented ones, and after you may begin to entertain any thought of trading them for some real good return, how old will be our core?
Take a look at Morrow, if all goes well he is about 2-3 years away from holding the kind of value Goli had when he was traded.
Pouliot? Maatta? Who knows but I'd say at least 3-5 years (especially in Pouliot's case). Not even counting the almost obligatory one who doesn't pan out.
problem is, we're in win now mode.
If someone had told me 2 or 3 years ago that Sid would begin season 12-13 alongside Dupuis and Malkin with a borderline NHLer, I would have seriously wondered how Shero managed to keep his job this long.(well actually he isn't even being questioned..)

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01-17-2013, 10:22 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by clefty View Post
But surely you can accept that things that went down eight days ago holds more relevance to what happened eight months ago when it comes to building a team to play a game in a day's time.

What if Lovejoy simply has had a better week than Strait?
If that were the case, then we'd better hope this week was representative, and their choice better suits our needs. I wasn't able to see any of the camp, so I don't know.

Before this week, I think one would be hard-pressed to find knowledgeable fans who thought Lovejoy would be still be on the team at this point.

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01-17-2013, 10:25 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
If that were the case, then we'd better hope this week was representative, and their choice better suits our needs.

Because before this week, I think one would be hard-pressed to find knowledgeable fans who thought Lovejoy would be still be on the team at this point.
I'm glad they kept Despres up here. From what has been mentioned by the press, it was a coaching staff decision. I'll take that and deal with losing Strait for Lovejoy.

Adding Tangradi, Despres and Bortuzzo to this team is what I wanted from the beginning. I'm a happy guy at the moment.

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01-17-2013, 10:26 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I'm glad they kept Despres up here. From what has been mentioned by the press, it was a coaching staff decision. I'll take that and deal with losing Strait for Lovejoy.

Adding Tangradi, Despres and Bortuzzo to this team is what I wanted from the beginning. I'm a happy guy at the moment.
Hopefully he'll slip through waivers so it won't even be an issue.

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01-17-2013, 10:30 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Hopefully he'll slip through waivers so it won't even be an issue.
Eh. I don't see any chance he slips through. Too many teams can use a guy like him. If we lost Bortuzzo for nothing, I'd be pissed.

The organization apparently thought Lovejoy is a better fit as a depth D-man. Someone who can come in when injuries hit and make more of an impact for us. I don't agree, but I think that's their reasoning.

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01-17-2013, 10:36 PM
  #184
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Anyway you slice it, if there was a time to send down Strait, right before the start of the season was the best.
And you don't want him seating on the pressbox as the 8th dmen while he could be getting top minutes at Wilkes barre.

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01-17-2013, 10:40 PM
  #185
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I'd say there's a pretty strong chance that Strait makes it through waivers.

Realistically, he's a bottom-pairing defender with zero offensive capabilities. Every organization has a guy like Strait, one of those guys who's around 24-26 and profiles as a 3rd-pairing guy and likely nothing more. Just don't see another team clearing a spot on their NHL roster for a player who is going to have a marginal impact, especially during a condensed season where a player's not going to get much practice time to learn a new system. Most of the time the guys claimed on final roster waivers have at least some potential beyond that, even if it's unlikely they're going to reach it. Sometimes you end up with a Grabner, most of the time you end up with nothing. Just don't see a team picking Strait up.

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01-17-2013, 10:40 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Eh. I don't see any chance he slips through. Too many teams can use a guy like him. If we lost Bortuzzo for nothing, I'd be pissed.
I wouldn't be surprised. Smaller guy who plays an unflashy defensive game.

We'll see.

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01-17-2013, 10:43 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Eh. I don't see any chance he slips through. Too many teams can use a guy like him. If we lost Bortuzzo for nothing, I'd be pissed.

The organization apparently thought Lovejoy is a better fit as a depth D-man. Someone who can come in when injuries hit and make more of an impact for us. I don't agree, but I think that's their reasoning.

Agreed about Bortuzzo. I honestly believe he's going to make his way into the lineup on a regular basis.

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01-17-2013, 10:47 PM
  #188
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In my opinion, Strait / Lovejoy are the least of our worries... Niskanen/Martin playing impact minutes in the post-season is much more disconcerting.

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01-17-2013, 10:48 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I wouldn't be surprised. Smaller guy who plays an unflashy defensive game.

We'll see.
Lotta teams with god awful defensive depth charts. If Wade Redden is getting serious interest around the league, I don't know what to think of NHL GMs if they pass on Strait.

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01-17-2013, 11:18 PM
  #190
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If he slips through and we take him to WBS... does he have to go through again on the way back up? Waivers is something I just steer clear from.

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01-17-2013, 11:21 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Lotta teams with god awful defensive depth charts. If Wade Redden is getting serious interest around the league, I don't know what to think of NHL GMs if they pass on Strait.
Post of the thread.

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01-17-2013, 11:24 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
If he slips through and we take him to WBS... does he have to go through again on the way back up? Waivers is something I just steer clear from.
AFAIK, re-entry waivers were done away with in the new CBA to prevent deserving players from needlessly toiling in the minors.

EDIT - Yup:

http://oilonwhyte.com/2013/01/13/kno...entry-waivers/


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01-18-2013, 12:29 AM
  #193
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That's what gets me. Only chance to get real value for these guys is to trade them after they have established themselves as NHL-caliber players.
Not exactly. Look at what Schenn fetched. Yes Simmonds and a 2nd came back, but we all know the main part of that trade was Brayden Schenn. Yes they're worth more once they've proven themselves, but as long as they're still considered a blue chip prospect who's excelled at every level and is perceived to be ready for the NHL, then they still have great value.

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01-18-2013, 01:25 AM
  #194
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Strait might have more upside than Lovejoy but that's not the same as saying he's better *right now* than Lovejoy. Lets be clear on that.
This can't be stated enough. And Lovejoy is not as bad as people make him out to be.

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01-18-2013, 03:28 AM
  #195
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This can't be stated enough. And Lovejoy is not as bad as people make him out to be.
I agree. Strait looked better last year in very limited duty but there's a legit argument to be made that Lovejoy is the better player if you look back at their careers and production throughout various levels so far.

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01-18-2013, 05:41 AM
  #196
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I agree. Strait looked better last year in very limited duty but there's a legit argument to be made that Lovejoy is the better player if you look back at their careers and production throughout various levels so far.
The Lovejoy hate on here is so over the top that I can't even tell if it's real or sarcarsm. He had a couple (emphasis added) of bad games last season and for some reason that's all people can remember about him. He had way more good games. More so 2 seasons ago, but he isn't anything close to how he is being portrayed on here. Niskanen was way, WAY worse 2 seasons ago and look how he bounced back last season.

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01-18-2013, 06:06 AM
  #197
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All of this over Strait? Jesus!

I get it. Some have to find something to be against Shero and Blysma, but if they really went with "worst" players being out, that would have been Despres recently!

Instead, they probably saw Lovejoy and Strait at the same point, attempted to trade both of them and got no takers. So, I could look at what each one of them did in a small sample size of last year's playoff series where the whole freakin team was bad defensively OR I could use the knowledge I have that NO FAN would and still hope that sending Strait down now would allow him to sneak through, especially because there is no re-entry waivers.

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01-18-2013, 06:39 AM
  #198
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The Lovejoy hate on here is so over the top that I can't even tell if it's real or sarcarsm. He had a couple (emphasis added) of bad games last season and for some reason that's all people can remember about him. He had way more good games. More so 2 seasons ago, but he isn't anything close to how he is being portrayed on here. Niskanen was way, WAY worse 2 seasons ago and look how he bounced back last season.
I couldn't disagree more; I thought he was bad far more often than not. Granted, our defense as a unit was bad but Lovejoy did nothing to help. As for Niskanen, he came over in a trade and had to learn a new system; Lovejoy has been in the same system for years. Big difference because of the situation.

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01-18-2013, 06:48 AM
  #199
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Info from a good source says Strait had Mono to begin the season. Not knowing he was seriously ill he played through it and didn't play well. Then just before camp he caught the flu bug. He's had a rough start to an important season for him. If someone takes a chance on him they will be rewarded down the road. He's an NHL D-man that just needs to find the right fit. No, he's not an "elite talent" but how many D-men on each team can you really call an "elite talent"?

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01-18-2013, 06:48 AM
  #200
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letang-depres
morrow-maata
bortuzzo-doublion (however you speel it)


what do we do with the 47 other first rnd dman we drafted in the first round? the 2nd pairing is basically pick any 2 dman.
Trade them for: Kunitz, Tangradi and NEAL like players.

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