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Old
01-19-2013, 12:19 PM
  #226
Ricky Bobby
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
Its not my math skills we should worry about, however your reading comprehension...... I said if we are being some what realistic, as in not expect him to hit PPG with ease, than we should assume he hits 70 points. Now if we are being somewhat critical, we can assume Grabovski hits only 55(60+ is completely possible). Considering Grabovski is one of our best defensive players and Lupul is our worst, the ~10-15 point difference equalizes their dollar value. Now add to that the extra value in C over W, Lupul at 5-5.5 is completely realistic. If 55-60 point C's were so abundant, Krejci, Grabovski and Zajac wouldnt be making over 5 mill a year.
The other factor to consider is PP Time and opportunities.

Lupul was on the 1st PP unit, got more time and had 21 points vs. Grabo who only got 10 points.

Their even strength production is a lot closer.

Both these players are very valuable assets but lets not kid ourselves into thinking these are top 2 or possibly even top 3 forwards on a cup contender.

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01-19-2013, 01:17 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
The other factor to consider is PP Time and opportunities.

Lupul was on the 1st PP unit, got more time and had 21 points vs. Grabo who only got 10 points.

Their even strength production is a lot closer.

Both these players are very valuable assets but lets not kid ourselves into thinking these are top 2 or possibly even top 3 forwards on a cup contender.
Well, at a PPG, where would Lupul slot in on the most recent Stanley Cup winner? I don't buy that argument at all. It's too easy to just throw our best players on the trash heap because the team is losing. If Lupul plays like he did for us on a contender, he'd be one of their top players.

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01-19-2013, 01:20 PM
  #228
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The rumored Frattin + 2nd asking price for Jonathan Bernier, is looking pretty tantalizing right now. I like Frattin, but the hard truth about it is that he's already 25, and his peak potential is probably a 25 goal 45-50 point winger.

Bernier, whose also 25, could be a franchise goalie, could be a career backup. His peak, is much higher than Frattin's, and is much more needed here in Toronto, then Frattin's is.

He's paid his dues, and his stats have always been pretty spectacular. Even in the NHL.

I really want Nonis to acquire Bernier, since we're in the East, and Bernier is pressuring LA to trade his rights to a team who'll play him, I think we are a strong candidate.

Quote:
Jonathan Bernier Just wants to Play


http://www.latimes.com/sports/sports...,2775271.story

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Old
01-19-2013, 01:21 PM
  #229
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So grabo gets 5.5x5 for putting up approximately half the points lupul does, and you want to pay lupul only 5? I don't get this logic.
If we lose Lupul, we will have a very hard time finding another ppg winger that has chemistry with kessel.
I get what your saying Lupul should be re-signed but Nonis can't get irresponsible with the money given out more so on TERM than anything else.

This lockout was about brining back the integrity of the cap from the loop whole that allowed circumventing contracts that spoiled Burke's plan... For the remainder of this new CBA unless something else comes out that cheats the cap, cap management is the most important factor to running the team. Lupul needs to stay within a number and especially in TERM on his next contract as a Leaf to keep him as a tradeable asset. Your roster has to have the majority of it's best players on tradeable contracts thus allowing room to fix things if they're not going good.

The cap's purpose was to promote parity and spread talent around the league. Up to when the Detroit Red Wings who weren't going to be able and keep all there guys together until they were the first team to circumvent the cap things were working as expected. The cap's integrity is back and long term deals, NTC,NMC need to be kept at a minimum. Any player that isn't exactly special like Montreal's PK Suban, or Lupul in this case if they press you to break those guidelines should be traded while there value is still high and get something good in return. Flexibility on the cap to be able if it comes bye to change your team on the fly to avoid over paying players on term is the smartest thing these NHL GM's should be practicing.

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01-19-2013, 01:38 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Antropovsky View Post
The rumored Frattin + 2nd asking price for Jonathan Bernier, is looking pretty tantalizing right now. I like Frattin, but the hard truth about it is that he's already 25, and his peak potential is probably a 25 goal 45-50 point winger.

Bernier, whose also 25, could be a franchise goalie, could be a career backup. His peak, is much higher than Frattin's, and is much more needed here in Toronto, then Frattin's is.

He's paid his dues, and his stats have always been pretty spectacular. Even in the NHL.

I really want Nonis to acquire Bernier, since we're in the East, and Bernier is pressuring LA to trade his rights to a team who'll play him, I think we are a strong candidate.



http://www.latimes.com/sports/sports...,2775271.story
Makes a lot of sense actually. Frattin has only a handful of games left before he's waiver eligible so either needs to play in the bigs or traded. Scrivens may start a large portion of the begginning of the season to guage his worth as an NHL goalie. Since Frattin didnt crack the roster, if goalie troubles loom early then hell probably be dealt for Bernier.

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01-19-2013, 01:54 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Antropovsky View Post
The rumored Frattin + 2nd asking price for Jonathan Bernier, is looking pretty tantalizing right now. I like Frattin, but the hard truth about it is that he's already 25, and his peak potential is probably a 25 goal 45-50 point winger.

Bernier, whose also 25, could be a franchise goalie, could be a career backup. His peak, is much higher than Frattin's, and is much more needed here in Toronto, then Frattin's is.

He's paid his dues, and his stats have always been pretty spectacular. Even in the NHL.

I really want Nonis to acquire Bernier, since we're in the East, and Bernier is pressuring LA to trade his rights to a team who'll play him, I think we are a strong candidate.



http://www.latimes.com/sports/sports...,2775271.story
I think I'd take that deal, if I were Nonis. I'd try and weasel out of the 2nd, maybe offer a 3rd and a lower prospect they like, or a depth player.

If the deal is there, I'd also call Nonis and give him one last chance before I pull the trigger. Maybe sweeten the deal from Bozak and a pick, again offering a lower tier prospect or depth player. Just not a roster center.

I'm not totally sold on Bernier being a 1G, but he has better potential then Riemer and Scrivens.

BTW, I wouldn't call his NHL stats spectacular. Just good. He's only had one spectacular season, it was 09-10 with Manchester Monarchs of the AHL. If your looking for prospective spectacular seasons in the minors and development leagues, look no further then Scrivens. He's never had a bad season. When playing 30 or more games, he's never had less then a .924 save %. That's spectacular.

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01-19-2013, 02:11 PM
  #232
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I think I'd take that deal, if I were Nonis. I'd try and weasel out of the 2nd, maybe offer a 3rd and a lower prospect they like, or a depth player.

If the deal is there, I'd also call Nonis and give him one last chance before I pull the trigger. Maybe sweeten the deal from Bozak and a pick, again offering a lower tier prospect or depth player. Just not a roster center.

I'm not totally sold on Bernier being a 1G, but he has better potential then Riemer and Scrivens.

BTW, I wouldn't call his NHL stats spectacular. Just good. He's only had one spectacular season, it was 09-10 with Manchester Monarchs of the AHL. If your looking for prospective spectacular seasons in the minors and development leagues, look no further then Scrivens. He's never had a bad season. When playing 30 or more games, he's never had less then a .924 save %. That's spectacular.


This is why the trade doesn't make sense and wont happen... We here in Leaf land have a problem we continue to look past what we have and don't look from within to improve... It's the grass is greener analogy frame of thought where it's the most popular conversation is that we're constantly looking out side the organization before even giving a chance to what we have and see what we have in them.

Bernier should not be an option IMO until we see what we have in Reimer and Scrivens.

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Old
01-19-2013, 02:12 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Antropovsky View Post
The rumored Frattin + 2nd asking price for Jonathan Bernier, is looking pretty tantalizing right now. I like Frattin, but the hard truth about it is that he's already 25, and his peak potential is probably a 25 goal 45-50 point winger.

Bernier, whose also 25, could be a franchise goalie, could be a career backup. His peak, is much higher than Frattin's, and is much more needed here in Toronto, then Frattin's is.

He's paid his dues, and his stats have always been pretty spectacular. Even in the NHL.

I really want Nonis to acquire Bernier, since we're in the East, and Bernier is pressuring LA to trade his rights to a team who'll play him, I think we are a strong candidate.



http://www.latimes.com/sports/sports...,2775271.story
If the 2nd is next years, Then I'm for it.

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Old
01-19-2013, 02:28 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antropovsky View Post
The rumored Frattin + 2nd asking price for Jonathan Bernier, is looking pretty tantalizing right now. I like Frattin, but the hard truth about it is that he's already 25, and his peak potential is probably a 25 goal 45-50 point winger.

Bernier, whose also 25, could be a franchise goalie, could be a career backup. His peak, is much higher than Frattin's, and is much more needed here in Toronto, then Frattin's is.

He's paid his dues, and his stats have always been pretty spectacular. Even in the NHL.

I really want Nonis to acquire Bernier, since we're in the East, and Bernier is pressuring LA to trade his rights to a team who'll play him, I think we are a strong candidate.



http://www.latimes.com/sports/sports...,2775271.story
I'd trade Frattin for Bernier straight up, but would prefer not to give up a pick.

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01-19-2013, 04:14 PM
  #235
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Trade thoughts on Bernier.

One would think that out of Reimer,Bernier and Scrivens one would get hot.

Also with O'Reilly wanting a big raise and Duschene in the mix,Colorado would be in the mood to trade Stastny's contract?

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01-19-2013, 04:21 PM
  #236
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Well, at a PPG, where would Lupul slot in on the most recent Stanley Cup winner? I don't buy that argument at all. It's too easy to just throw our best players on the trash heap because the team is losing. If Lupul plays like he did for us on a contender, he'd be one of their top players.
No way he has the same OVERALL impact on a game as Kopitar or Richards has. Brown maybe, but not the Dustin Brown beast of these past playoffs.

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01-19-2013, 04:57 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by darrylsittler27 View Post
One would think that out of Reimer,Bernier and Scrivens one would get hot.

Also with O'Reilly wanting a big raise and Duschene in the mix,Colorado would be in the mood to trade Stastny's contract?
LEt them keep Stastny.

Go after Duchene with O'Reilly.

This is what I mean about thinking bigger.

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Old
01-19-2013, 05:07 PM
  #238
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No way he has the same OVERALL impact on a game as Kopitar or Richards has. Brown maybe, but not the Dustin Brown beast of these past playoffs.
Glad to see you believe there's an "I" in team Impact of top notch players isn't felt where it matters in the "W" column if a team doesn't play as a cohesive unit. Teams win hockey games not individual players... You don't need to look any further than Crosby's rookie year for proof. He had an 100+ point season and the OVERALL impact of that to the team was the 2nd overall pick

I wonder some times if individual stats weren't tallied which heavily influences the opinions of the IMPACT players have on a team what the conversations would be like? You can talk about those players over Lupul if you like doesn't change how Lupul performed as a Leaf and his importance to this team moving forward playing at that level cause it's no different to the LA's top players.

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01-19-2013, 05:11 PM
  #239
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Landing Bernier for Frattin means saying goodbye to a top 10 draft pick and thus no # 1 C being drafted

so the Price for Bernier is Frattin and no # 1C stud

Is it worth it????? NO

We need 1 last year of top 5 draft and then make deals..

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01-19-2013, 05:21 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Hawaiinleaf View Post
Landing Bernier for Frattin means saying goodbye to a top 10 draft pick and thus no # 1 C being drafted

so the Price for Bernier is Frattin and no # 1C stud

Is it worth it????? NO

We need 1 last year of top 5 draft and then make deals..
Source: Your imagination.

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01-19-2013, 05:34 PM
  #241
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At what price?

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LEt them keep Stastny.

Go after Duchene with O'Reilly.

This is what I mean about thinking bigger.
Sure I would like them both,but we dont have the pieces.I thought Statsny might come cheaper to make room for O'Reilly's contract.

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01-19-2013, 05:53 PM
  #242
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Sure I would like them both,but we dont have the pieces.I thought Statsny might come cheaper to make room for O'Reilly's contract.
We have the pieces. Are you willing to pay?

We have some very good pieces right now. If We're willing to pay very few players would be off limits. We also have several players that can fill the bottom 6 playing in the AHL right now.

Are you willing to move Phaneuf? Kadri? Gardiner? Grabovski? Gunnarsson? Kulemin?

I already proposed something where we moved most of those guys and a couple others to do a one year rebuild.

This team can be made good if people can drop their attachments to certain players and maybe over pay to get the quality we need.

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01-19-2013, 05:55 PM
  #243
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If the 2nd is next years, Then I'm for it.
agreed. not this year no thanks.

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01-19-2013, 06:05 PM
  #244
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Glad to see you believe there's an "I" in team Impact of top notch players isn't felt where it matters in the "W" column if a team doesn't play as a cohesive unit. Teams win hockey games not individual players... You don't need to look any further than Crosby's rookie year for proof. He had an 100+ point season and the OVERALL impact of that to the team was the 2nd overall pick

I wonder some times if individual stats weren't tallied which heavily influences the opinions of the IMPACT players have on a team what the conversations would be like? You can talk about those players over Lupul if you like doesn't change how Lupul performed as a Leaf and his importance to this team moving forward playing at that level cause it's no different to the LA's top players.
The truth is that teams that even make it to being the final 4 every year generally follow a fairly similar formula of having strength down the middle, being tough to play against because everybody is defensively responsible and allocate a lot of their cap to the center ice position, top 2-3 D and having good goaltending.

LA had Kopitar, Richards, Doughty, Quick. Yes they had some good wingers and complimentary D but make no mistake this team controlled the play because they were built down the middle.

Chicago upon winning the cup had Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Campbell (best # 3 D in recent memory on a team). There is a reason the great Scotty Bowman choose to let guys like Ladd, Buff go before losing their very good # 3 center in Bolland.

I could on and show you the Pens, Wings, Tampa, Nucks models as well.

Even the Leafs with their pre-lockout success had the model of Sundin, Kaberle, McCabe, Cujo or Belfour.

Toronto as currently constructed are very heavy winger focused. If we OVERPAY for Lupul as a pending free agent this team will continue to be winger cap focused but just one year older.

Lupul is a very good talent and as a fan someone I really like. But he isn't a top all-around winger who can take over a game at both ends like a Hossa or take over a game offensively fairly regularly like St. Louis or possibly even Kessel. The cap is going down which is going to make a lot of top notch players available as teams need to comply with it before next. Lupul can be part of the solution by accepting a fair deal or we can get some top assets for him in the form of picks/prospects which in turn we can use to draft and develop or turn around and use as part of a package to get that center upgrade or another top pairing Dman to compliment Phaneuf or a star goalie.

Lupul is good but lets not put him in the category of wingers to build a team around after 1 PPG season playing with a star winger in Kessel. On a team that finished 5th last fans have to many guys deemed "untouchables".

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01-19-2013, 06:25 PM
  #245
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We have no untouchables.

Except that other teams won't want them. Every team asks for Gardiner,why? Since we don't know from one year what he will develop into, we are leary of giving him away. Getting the puck out of our end has long been a Leaf weakness.Many of us like the idea of having two puck moving gys i.e Reilly. But if the right young center came along,we have to trade strength into a glaring weakness. The Leafs dont draft star centers(since Sittler),Sundin and Gilmour were trades.

In short, the only thing I would trade Gardiner for is a young star C. Everyone else is fair game.

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01-19-2013, 06:28 PM
  #246
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Except that other teams won't want them. Every team asks for Gardiner,why? Since we don't know from one year what he will develop into, we are leary of giving him away. Getting the puck out of our end has long been a Leaf weakness.Many of us like the idea of having two puck moving gys i.e Reilly. But if the right young center came along,we have to trade strength into a glaring weakness. The Leafs dont draft star centers(since Sittler),Sundin and Gilmour were trades.

In short, the only thing I would trade Gardiner for is a young star C. Everyone else is fair game.
So keep Gards in mind as your starting point when shopping for a #1C. You want to get a good one, and that is going to cost.

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01-19-2013, 09:45 PM
  #247
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Scrivens looked ok today but he definitely looked like a back-up goalie. It seems like our defence improved a lot (good penalty kill). I wouldn't mind trading Frattin for Bernier even though Bernier is unproven. Bernier has more potential than Reimer/Scrivens.

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01-20-2013, 01:58 AM
  #248
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What would you guys want for Steckel?

Pending UFA, and you have McClement now, whom the Avs dearly miss, esspecially without Radar.

Don't want Steckel put into a package for Stastny/Duchene/Radar, just want Steckel ... Avs have a surplus of LHD if that means anything to ya

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01-20-2013, 07:22 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
The other factor to consider is PP Time and opportunities.

Lupul was on the 1st PP unit, got more time and had 21 points vs. Grabo who only got 10 points.

Their even strength production is a lot closer.

Both these players are very valuable assets but lets not kid ourselves into thinking these are top 2 or possibly even top 3 forwards on a cup contender.
Why? Oh because you need a Quick as 1 and a Crosby type player at c ahead of them. I think we know this.

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01-20-2013, 07:26 AM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Antropovsky View Post
The rumored Frattin + 2nd asking price for Jonathan Bernier, is looking pretty tantalizing right now. I like Frattin, but the hard truth about it is that he's already 25, and his peak potential is probably a 25 goal 45-50 point winger.

Bernier, whose also 25, could be a franchise goalie, could be a career backup. His peak, is much higher than Frattin's, and is much more needed here in Toronto, then Frattin's is.

He's paid his dues, and his stats have always been pretty spectacular. Even in the NHL.

I really want Nonis to acquire Bernier, since we're in the East, and Bernier is pressuring LA to trade his rights to a team who'll play him, I think we are a strong candidate.



http://www.latimes.com/sports/sports...,2775271.story
Meh. I'd rather wait 'til the summer. See what we have in Reimer, draft so we're not tempted to trade the pick, see what transpires with free agency.

If we make the playoffs I see no reason to upgrade over what we have. If were far out of it, Bernier isnt going to be the difference, and may just take out of the top picks.

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