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P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

View Poll Results: Who should break first
Bergevin 61 25.00%
Subban 183 75.00%
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Old
01-19-2013, 09:33 AM
  #726
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
If Scott Gomes was worth 7.25 million, Subban is worth 15 million...I don't like the logic you are using.

You need to compare players that have similar styles/roles and experience. MDZ, Edler, Letang are more similar to PK for example. Compare PK to young offensive minded defensemen. Now you can bring up Kaberle at 4.5 million but the guy is a veteran, has had 13 or so 30+point seasons, a career best 67 points and similar PPG last year with the Habs. And many of us think he's overpaid.

The other difference is that PK's salary is likely to go up in his next contract, he just has to work for it a little bit longer. Gorges' will not, he is what he is.
I'm looking at the worth of those two players right now, this day. You tell me to use logic and compare similar players and throw Gomez into the mix. I'm comparing two Montreal Canadiens' d-men and what they mean to this team today. And if Gorges is worth 3.9 mil, with not much more experience and top minutes than Subban, then PK Subban is easily worth 5 mil. That's all I said. I'm not that interested in comparing similar players because quite frankly they can be equally all over the map with contracts. I can understand PK's and Meehan's approach. Markov and Kaberle are on the downside. Gorges in NOT an all around d-man. Diaz and Emelin have a lot to prove. Subban is ONLY 23 years old. I think he's worth the dough. And if Montreal doesn't think so I bet someone else does.

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01-19-2013, 09:41 AM
  #727
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
If Josh Gorges is worth 3.9 then PK is worth 5 mil - easily.
Gorges was coming up to UFA status. PK is only a RFA, that is no small factor.

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01-19-2013, 09:42 AM
  #728
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
I'm looking at the worth of those two players right now, this day. You tell me to use logic and compare similar players and throw Gomez into the mix. I'm comparing two Montreal Canadiens' d-men and what they mean to this team today. And if Gorges is worth 3.9 mil, with not much more experience and top minutes than Subban, then PK Subban is easily worth 5 mil. That's all I said. I'm not that interested in comparing similar players because quite frankly they can be equally all over the map with contracts. I can understand PK's and Meehan's approach. Markov and Kaberle are on the downside. Gorges in NOT an all around d-man. Diaz and Emelin have a lot to prove. Subban is ONLY 23 years old. I think he's worth the dough. And if Montreal doesn't think so I bet someone else does.
I threw Gomez in there to make the point that you need to compare apples with apples, oranges with oranges. I strongly disagree with you, it is very importnat to compare similar players at similar stages of their carrer. Erik Karlsson got a 6.5 year deal. Same age as PK. Norris nominee. 78 point season last year. PK is worth MUCH less than that, he has half the productivity FFS. You can focus on Gorges, Markov and Kaberle if you want. Ill focus on the comparables.

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01-19-2013, 09:42 AM
  #729
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Gorges was coming up to UFA status. PK is only a RFA, that is no small factor.
Good point, I forgot to mention that.

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01-19-2013, 09:44 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
I'm looking at the worth of those two players right now, this day. You tell me to use logic and compare similar players and throw Gomez into the mix. I'm comparing two Montreal Canadiens' d-men and what they mean to this team today. And if Gorges is worth 3.9 mil, with not much more experience and top minutes than Subban, then PK Subban is easily worth 5 mil. That's all I said. I'm not that interested in comparing similar players because quite frankly they can be equally all over the map with contracts. I can understand PK's and Meehan's approach. Markov and Kaberle are on the downside. Gorges in NOT an all around d-man. Diaz and Emelin have a lot to prove. Subban is ONLY 23 years old. I think he's worth the dough. And if Montreal doesn't think so I bet someone else does.
Also, you need to compare players at the time they signed their contracts not TODAY. Markov is a good example, he was injured the last two years, that's not his fault, and that fuels your argument that PK should perhaps be worth as much. That makes no sense.

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01-19-2013, 09:46 AM
  #731
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
If Josh Gorges is worth 3.9 then PK is worth 5 mil - easily.
The Habs overpaid for Gorges, big time...but this is the kind of leverage an agent uses...

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01-19-2013, 09:50 AM
  #732
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The Habs overpaid for Gorges, big time...but this is the kind of leverage an agent uses...
Thank you. That's my point. From an agent's POV, not a fan's, it's something to look at. Whatever the case it will be interesting to see how it all pans out for all parties concerned.

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01-19-2013, 09:50 AM
  #733
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The Habs overpaid for Gorges, big time...but this is the kind of leverage an agent uses...
2-4 million for good solid players at their prime is market value.

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01-19-2013, 09:51 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
The Habs overpaid for Gorges, big time...but this is the kind of leverage an agent uses...
Maybe in terms of years not cap hit. He was going to be a UFA, compare to other guys over 25 taht are top 4 NHL d-men.

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01-19-2013, 09:54 AM
  #735
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Thank you. That's my point. From an agent's POV, not a fan's, it's something to look at. Whatever the case it will be interesting to see how it all pans out for all parties concerned.
I agree it factors in. The same is true the other way, similar players across the league getting paid less than PK is after. That's what Bergevin is likely arguing. It goes both ways.

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01-19-2013, 09:58 AM
  #736
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I can't believe PK does't want to be on the ice tonight.....Tell Meehan to sign the *** deal!

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01-19-2013, 09:58 AM
  #737
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You guys think PK is going to show up at the Bell Center to watch his teammates play? Or will he stay in Toronto with his agent?

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01-19-2013, 09:59 AM
  #738
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I can't believe PK does't want to be on the ice tonight.....Tell Meehan to sign the *** deal!
I can't imagine he does not want to play tonight. Too late though.

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01-19-2013, 10:00 AM
  #739
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
If Josh Gorges is worth 3.9 then PK is worth 5 mil - easily.
There's a huge difference between UFA years and RFA years. Huge difference. If Gorges had just finished his 3rd year of his ELC, he'd probably be signing for between $2M-$2.5M.

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01-19-2013, 10:01 AM
  #740
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I agree it factors in. The same is true the other way, similar players across the league getting paid less than PK is after. That's what Bergevin is likely arguing. It goes both ways.
You mean like Tyler Myers?

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01-19-2013, 10:03 AM
  #741
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I agree, if Subban is asking for something like MaxPack (~4.5 / 7 years) and Bergevin is not going for this I think that's bad management. I would have no problem with that. However, I suspect that PK is asking much more and that's the core issue. But I don't really know.
You know what's bad management, letting your star player on the sideline because he wants to commit longer years here.
I mean, Doughty held out for more cash. So did Radulov, Yashin, etc. Players will get into contractual disputes over cash. This is the first time I see management refuse to commit more years into a young star. Usually, that's exactly what they want.
It's freaking retarded. People talk about the risk, what risk? You think PK will decline? Based on what? Because in some cases it has happened? So what? Odds are that won't happen. Matter of fact, I'd bet all my possessions and life earnings on PK not declining.
Just to be clear, one bad season can happen, that's not a decline.
So really, what's the worst thing that can happen?? He stays the way he is?? Okay, so he'll be one of the many other players on our team that's a big overpaid. He'll be just like them all.
The upside?? We get him at a cheaper price, and he keeps improving to the point where he's considered one of the best Dman in the NHL.

Arguing he needs a 2y deal based on risk is absolutely ridiculous. Also, it doesn't appear management feels that it is about risk. It looks like to them it's more about instilling a salary structure and making everyone go through it. Because MB is a rookie, he is holding strongly to his position simply because he needs to make his mark. He's as sure a bet as anybody else. What's really retarded though, is keeping our best player out because he wants to commit longer here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
If Scott Gomes was worth 7.25 million, Subban is worth 15 million...I don't like the logic you are using.

You need to compare players that have similar styles/roles and experience. MDZ, Edler, Letang are more similar to PK for example. Compare PK to young offensive minded defensemen. Now you can bring up Kaberle at 4.5 million but the guy is a veteran, has had 13 or so 30+point seasons, a career best 67 points and similar PPG last year with the Habs. And many of us think he's overpaid.

The other difference is that PK's salary is likely to go up in his next contract, he just has to work for it a little bit longer. Gorges' will not, he is what he is.
Scott Gomez was given that contract years ago, in NYC. Gorges got it last season, in Mtl. Granted, it was by another administration. Still, it's a bran new deal, and making 100K more while doing much more is ridiculous.
But, push Gorges aside if you want. Bergevin gave a big deal to Price. 6.5M is a lot of cash to Carey, and I don't think he deserves it all. Just so you know, that's the 3rd highest cap hit for goalies in the NHL. Price hasn't played like a top 3 goalie once in his career. Not once. Meanwhile, you have PK here that is, without a doubt, a top 30 Dman in the NHL.
Look at the list of the highest cap hits in the NHL, in the top 25, you have guys like Wiz, Byf, Carle, Wideman, Visnovsky, Phaneuf, Jaybo, Campbell, Seabrook.
If you look at ice time, PK was 14th overall. Average time on ice 18th.
In his rookie year, half way through, he replaced Hammer as our #1 shutdown guy, with both Markov and Gorges out. Since then, he's been our go-to guy.
At his age, you know he is still progressing, which is great. So, it's not the end of the world if you pay him like a top 20 Dman in the NHL. It is certainly not worth making him sit at home over it.

I strongly doubt PK is asking for more than 6M at the most. Negotiate this down to 5.25 if possible. But even at 6, I wouldn't cry over it.

Like I said though, keeping your best player at home because he wants to commit more years now is just dumb. You take advantage of that.

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01-19-2013, 10:07 AM
  #742
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You mean like Tyler Myers?
Tyler Myers is probably the best example for Subban's agent to use. He did have a 48 point season and won the Calder though. He also played an extra year before signing his extension. But that's one comparable.

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01-19-2013, 10:13 AM
  #743
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You know what's bad management, letting your star player on the sideline because he wants to commit longer years here.
I mean, Doughty held out for more cash. So did Radulov, Yashin, etc. Players will get into contractual disputes over cash. This is the first time I see management refuse to commit more years into a young star. Usually, that's exactly what they want.
It's freaking retarded. People talk about the risk, what risk? You think PK will decline? Based on what? Because in some cases it has happened? So what? Odds are that won't happen. Matter of fact, I'd bet all my possessions and life earnings on PK not declining.
Just to be clear, one bad season can happen, that's not a decline.
So really, what's the worst thing that can happen?? He stays the way he is?? Okay, so he'll be one of the many other players on our team that's a big overpaid. He'll be just like them all.
The upside?? We get him at a cheaper price, and he keeps improving to the point where he's considered one of the best Dman in the NHL.

Arguing he needs a 2y deal based on risk is absolutely ridiculous. Also, it doesn't appear management feels that it is about risk. It looks like to them it's more about instilling a salary structure and making everyone go through it. Because MB is a rookie, he is holding strongly to his position simply because he needs to make his mark. He's as sure a bet as anybody else. What's really retarded though, is keeping our best player out because he wants to commit longer here.



Scott Gomez was given that contract years ago, in NYC. Gorges got it last season, in Mtl. Granted, it was by another administration. Still, it's a bran new deal, and making 100K more while doing much more is ridiculous.
But, push Gorges aside if you want. Bergevin gave a big deal to Price. 6.5M is a lot of cash to Carey, and I don't think he deserves it all. Just so you know, that's the 3rd highest cap hit for goalies in the NHL. Price hasn't played like a top 3 goalie once in his career. Not once. Meanwhile, you have PK here that is, without a doubt, a top 30 Dman in the NHL.
Look at the list of the highest cap hits in the NHL, in the top 25, you have guys like Wiz, Byf, Carle, Wideman, Visnovsky, Phaneuf, Jaybo, Campbell, Seabrook.
If you look at ice time, PK was 14th overall. Average time on ice 18th.
In his rookie year, half way through, he replaced Hammer as our #1 shutdown guy, with both Markov and Gorges out. Since then, he's been our go-to guy.
At his age, you know he is still progressing, which is great. So, it's not the end of the world if you pay him like a top 20 Dman in the NHL. It is certainly not worth making him sit at home over it.

I strongly doubt PK is asking for more than 6M at the most. Negotiate this down to 5.25 if possible. But even at 6, I wouldn't cry over it.

Like I said though, keeping your best player at home because he wants to commit more years now is just dumb. You take advantage of that.
It's also not so cleaver to stay at home and let your teammates down just so you get the extra long-term 6+ deal management is not eager on.

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01-19-2013, 10:28 AM
  #744
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You know what's bad management, letting your star player on the sideline because he wants to commit longer years here.
I mean, Doughty held out for more cash. So did Radulov, Yashin, etc. Players will get into contractual disputes over cash. This is the first time I see management refuse to commit more years into a young star. Usually, that's exactly what they want.
It's freaking retarded. People talk about the risk, what risk? You think PK will decline? Based on what? Because in some cases it has happened? So what? Odds are that won't happen. Matter of fact, I'd bet all my possessions and life earnings on PK not declining.
Just to be clear, one bad season can happen, that's not a decline.
So really, what's the worst thing that can happen?? He stays the way he is?? Okay, so he'll be one of the many other players on our team that's a big overpaid. He'll be just like them all.
The upside?? We get him at a cheaper price, and he keeps improving to the point where he's considered one of the best Dman in the NHL.

Arguing he needs a 2y deal based on risk is absolutely ridiculous. Also, it doesn't appear management feels that it is about risk. It looks like to them it's more about instilling a salary structure and making everyone go through it. Because MB is a rookie, he is holding strongly to his position simply because he needs to make his mark. He's as sure a bet as anybody else. What's really retarded though, is keeping our best player out because he wants to commit longer here.



Scott Gomez was given that contract years ago, in NYC. Gorges got it last season, in Mtl. Granted, it was by another administration. Still, it's a bran new deal, and making 100K more while doing much more is ridiculous.
But, push Gorges aside if you want. Bergevin gave a big deal to Price. 6.5M is a lot of cash to Carey, and I don't think he deserves it all. Just so you know, that's the 3rd highest cap hit for goalies in the NHL. Price hasn't played like a top 3 goalie once in his career. Not once. Meanwhile, you have PK here that is, without a doubt, a top 30 Dman in the NHL.
Look at the list of the highest cap hits in the NHL, in the top 25, you have guys like Wiz, Byf, Carle, Wideman, Visnovsky, Phaneuf, Jaybo, Campbell, Seabrook.
If you look at ice time, PK was 14th overall. Average time on ice 18th.
In his rookie year, half way through, he replaced Hammer as our #1 shutdown guy, with both Markov and Gorges out. Since then, he's been our go-to guy.
At his age, you know he is still progressing, which is great. So, it's not the end of the world if you pay him like a top 20 Dman in the NHL. It is certainly not worth making him sit at home over it.

I strongly doubt PK is asking for more than 6M at the most. Negotiate this down to 5.25 if possible. But even at 6, I wouldn't cry over it.

Like I said though, keeping your best player at home because he wants to commit more years now is just dumb. You take advantage of that.
We don't know what the demands are, we don't know what the Habs are offering. All we know is that Bergevin stated that there was more to the offer than money. And that PK had to work on other things too. Seriously, that's all we know. The rest is speculation.

As for Bergevin trying to put forth a salary structure, If I was the owner, I would surely hope so!!! That's part of his job as a gm. This is not SimHockey here...

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01-19-2013, 10:30 AM
  #745
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The longer it takes the less likely it is that we'll see PK again in a habs jersey. What a mess... And I don't know who to blame...

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01-19-2013, 10:35 AM
  #746
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The longer it takes the less likely it is that we'll see PK again in a habs jersey. What a mess... And I don't know who to blame...
Like when Doughty held out with the Kings then went on to win the Stanley Cup? It sucks that it's happening but it's not the first time that a player has held out and it won't be the last. Unfortunately for us fans, all we can do is sit and wait.

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01-19-2013, 10:45 AM
  #747
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Like when Doughty held out with the Kings then went on to win the Stanley Cup? It sucks that it's happening but it's not the first time that a player has held out and it won't be the last. Unfortunately for us fans, all we can do is sit and wait.
I know but I feel PK is a more controversial figure among his teammates than Doughty was. That's why I feel the longer it takes the less likely it is we'll see him again in a habs jersey. Management might need to trade him if he becomes too much of a distraction.

Hopefully you're right.

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01-19-2013, 10:45 AM
  #748
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Like when Doughty held out with the Kings then went on to win the Stanley Cup? It sucks that it's happening but it's not the first time that a player has held out and it won't be the last. Unfortunately for us fans, all we can do is sit and wait.
Alferdson held out years ago too, didn't really hurt his rep in Ottawa.

I'm sure Meehan is trying to sell PK as a impact/generational Dman. Someone who should be paid for length now.

Seguin was paid after 1 quality season, and only 2 in the league. Taylor Hall got paid despite being injured for bit chunks of his first 1 seasons and getting points in the 40's.

It just seems to be if you want to sell this guys as hope/the future you have to pay them.

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01-19-2013, 10:47 AM
  #749
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We don't know what the demands are, we don't know what the Habs are offering. All we know is that Bergevin stated that there was more to the offer than money. And that PK had to work on other things too. Seriously, that's all we know. The rest is speculation.

As for Bergevin trying to put forth a salary structure, If I was the owner, I would surely hope so!!! That's part of his job as a gm. This is not SimHockey here...
PK Subban is one of the best player of the team. He won't get more than Price although I feel he's better than Price. So the salary structure is not in jeopardy.

From all accounts the problem is the length. Habs want 2-3 years. Subban wants long term (probably 5+).

This bridge contract crap is ridiculous. It's a flashback to the Gainey era of not negotiating during the season. It's similar to me in silliness and uselessness.

My gut feeling is that Bergevin is trying to show everyone that he won't budge, so don't try it. That.. or .. he's trying to teach PK a lesson. Either way, I feel what he is doing is silly. He did not pick his battle properly IMO.

It's like when Gorges got his contract. I felt he was overpaid but at the same time he is a guy with loyalty toward the habs. He's a useful piece and a trooper. In the grand scheme of things I don't have a problem with it that much. Better overpay for guys like Gorges than guys like Prust IMO. Similarly, I wouldn't mind Subban getting maybe 1M more than he deserves.


Last edited by Des Louise: 01-19-2013 at 10:53 AM.
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01-19-2013, 10:51 AM
  #750
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PK Subban is one of the best player of the team. He won't get more than Price although I feel he's better than Price. So the salary structure is not in jeopardy.

From all accounts the problem is the length. Habs want 2-3 years. Subban wants long term (probably 5+).

This bridge contract crap is ridiculous. It's a flashback to the Gainey era of not negotiating during the season. It's similar to me in silliness and uselessness.
I agree, MB should sign PK for 7-8 years right now for 5M-5.5M. GET THIS DONE BERGEVIN.

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