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Sam Gagner vs Kyle Turris

View Poll Results: Who will have a better season?
Sam Gagner 239 48.19%
Kyle Turris 257 51.81%
Voters: 496. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-30-2013, 09:21 AM
  #276
CantHaveTkachev
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so Turris' career high 29 points on one of the most offensive teams in the league has him leading this poll?

clearly this is on potential alone

Gagner for me...Turris has never lived up to the #3 overall hype

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01-30-2013, 09:26 AM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
so Turris' career high 29 points on one of the most offensive teams in the league has him leading this poll?

clearly this is on potential alone

Gagner for me...Turris has never lived up to the #3 overall hype
IMO Turris will be a better player this season and in the future.

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01-30-2013, 10:06 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
so Turris' career high 29 points on one of the most offensive teams in the league has him leading this poll?

clearly this is on potential alone

Gagner for me...Turris has never lived up to the #3 overall hype
If you just look at stats, you answer like this. If you've seen his development, you would understand. Gagner has plateau'd. Turris is getting better.

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01-30-2013, 11:06 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by The Waffler View Post
Well if its a matter of opinion and since both have achieved so little and are still relatively young players, then this argument is a crapshoot, no?

If that is the case, and there are too many questions up in the air over these two then there really is no point in voting for one over the other.

I think there's too much uncertainty to make a justifiable opinion. Not to mention, how many Oiler fans watch Sens games and vice-versa. Most people make their opinions off of stat sheets and what a TSN or CBC panelists say. That's what's wrong with comparisons like this. Not only is there too little of a sample to pick from, not enough people can make a valid opinion or themselves because they're not even watching the two players, but they want to look smart on an online message board.


With that all said, Turris AINEC.
It is a crap shoot, we are talking about a season that is no where near complete but the fact is one player has achieved a lot more than the other so far.

I do think there is a good chance that Turris has a better season and becomes the better player but the way you guys act like its already a foregone conclussion is flat out ridiculous imo.

371 gp 79g 147a
192 gp 35g 46a
while being drafted in the same year (and Sam being drafted lower)

Yeah, there's a lot more to it then this but that difference is pretty substantial.

Is this the year Turris proves to be the better player and have a better season? Maybe, but so far he's 0-5 in proving it his first 5 years. Not the type of bet I would be willing to make.

Show some respect for Samwise

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01-30-2013, 11:07 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Kyle Brodziak View Post
It is a crap shoot, we are talking about a season that is no where near complete but the fact is one player has achieved a lot more than the other so far.

I do think there is a good chance that Turris has a better season and becomes the better player but the way you guys act like its already a foregone conclussion is flat out ridiculous imo.

371 gp 79g 147a
192 gp 35g 46a
while being drafted in the same year (and Sam being drafted lower)

Yeah, there's a lot more to it then this but that difference is pretty substantial.

Is this the year Turris proves to be the better player and have a better season? Maybe, but so far he's 0-5 in proving it his first 5 years. Not the type of bet I would be willing to make.

Show some respect for Samwise
Ya but.. But... Turris didn't play as many games because he wasn't given a chance. And he wasn't given a chance because the coach didn't like rookies. Especially rookies drafted that high.

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01-30-2013, 11:11 AM
  #281
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Reasonable poll that is very close. Shouldn't be seeing the acronym AINEC in this thread - good way to tell you're a homer.

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01-30-2013, 11:13 AM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Brodziak View Post
It is a crap shoot, we are talking about a season that is no where near complete but the fact is one player has achieved a lot more than the other so far.

I do think there is a good chance that Turris has a better season and becomes the better player but the way you guys act like its already a foregone conclussion is flat out ridiculous imo.

371 gp 79g 147a
192 gp 35g 46a
while being drafted in the same year (and Sam being drafted lower)

Yeah, there's a lot more to it then this but that difference is pretty substantial.

Is this the year Turris proves to be the better player and have a better season? Maybe, but so far he's 0-5 in proving it his first 5 years. Not the type of bet I would be willing to make.

Show some respect for Samwise
Some friendly advice. Stats of the past mean little when comparing 2 very young players. All you talk about is stats...which leads me to believe you don't watch sens games. You watch the highlights at night or in the morning and surf NHL.com stats. Gagners scored more goals in his career so he must have a better shot,right?

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01-30-2013, 11:17 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
Reasonable poll that is very close. Shouldn't be seeing the acronym AINEC in this thread - good way to tell you're a homer.
What if 5 years from now, Gagners still getting 40 points and turris is a first liner? Then it would be not even close. You can use ainec when comparing futures if you believe they won't be close in the future. That being said, this poll asks this year therefor I agree with you

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01-30-2013, 11:23 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
Some friendly advice. Stats of the past mean little when comparing 2 very young players. All you talk about is stats...which leads me to believe you don't watch sens games. You watch the highlights at night or in the morning and surf NHL.com stats. Gagners scored more goals in his career so he must have a better shot,right?
Where did he say anything about him having a better shot? How about you make a legitimate argument rather than claiming the other poster is ignorant.


Last edited by spiny norman: 01-30-2013 at 12:10 PM. Reason: nn
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01-30-2013, 11:41 AM
  #285
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Spezza was out last night, so it was a good opportunity for Turris to raise his game. And the conclusion from that one game was we certainly need Spezza.

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01-30-2013, 11:42 AM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Brodziak View Post
It is a crap shoot, we are talking about a season that is no where near complete but the fact is one player has achieved a lot more than the other so far.

I do think there is a good chance that Turris has a better season and becomes the better player but the way you guys act like its already a foregone conclussion is flat out ridiculous imo.

371 gp 79g 147a
192 gp 35g 46a
while being drafted in the same year (and Sam being drafted lower)

Yeah, there's a lot more to it then this but that difference is pretty substantial.

Is this the year Turris proves to be the better player and have a better season? Maybe, but so far he's 0-5 in proving it his first 5 years. Not the type of bet I would be willing to make.

Show some respect for Samwise
Which is fine if you think team situation doesn't matter and if you think all players develop at the exact same rate.

When you have 2 players that are under 25 and played in entirely different situations then its not as easy as oh lets compare career numbers and we will know who is better. Turris maybe wasn't the most mature person and not the best player in PHX but he had the tools to become one, since the trade to Ottawa he has really stepped towards becoming the player everyone knew he could be.

Last season for instance, Ottawa was on pace for over 100 points after the Turris trade after everyone predicted Ottawa to battle the Oilers for the 1st overall pick. Yes he is not the only reason that the team played so well but making that move really helped the offence get solid depth and allowed the team to be 4th in the entire league in goals for.

Turris only played 49 games with Ottawa but he was on pace for 20 goals and 28 assists for 48 points. Those are very similar numbers to Sam Gagner's career though so I can see why people would compare the 2. However this off season Turris was signed to a new contract and really dedicated himself to getting stronger and it has really showed, he is strong on the puck, faster and just seems to really have taken the step to the next level. It might not be sustainable but everyone saw what he was capable of last season if he was just stronger and now he is proving them right, so far. And now Turris has started playing good PK minutes which shows how he has become a good 2-way player.

Like I've said earlier in this thread, Gagner could also improve more to become a better player but he doesn't seem to have the same 2-way game while they are probably both going to put up similar offensive numbers. So if I had to choose who I thought would become a better player, I'd bank my money on Turris and I don't think that is a homerish at all, but I can see why some people might think that Gagner might be that guy too.

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01-30-2013, 11:53 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
If you just look at stats, you answer like this. If you've seen his development, you would understand. Gagner has plateau'd. Turris is getting better.


Actually, Gagner has been making a ton of progress in his two way game. He played fairly tough minutes last year and came out with a team best +5 on the second worst team in the NHL, he's improved drastically at face-offs (he's better at faceoffs than Turris), and he actually plays a lot grittier compared to when he was 18. Hell, he will even stick up for his teammates and fight and he usually does quite well, with the exception of his fight with Beauchemin (who's a really tough customer I might add).

The only thing that hasn't improved in Gagner's game is literally his numbers, although his 6 points in 5 games so far is decent for a guy who is notorious for starting slow.

I find the bolded comment quite odd because you seem to be guilty of this yourself.

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01-30-2013, 12:03 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by ErikKarlsson View Post
Turris only played 49 games with Ottawa but he was on pace for 20 goals and 28 assists for 48 points. Those are very similar numbers to Sam Gagner's career though so I can see why people would compare the 2. However this off season Turris was signed to a new contract and really dedicated himself to getting stronger and it has really showed, he is strong on the puck, faster and just seems to really have taken the step to the next level. It might not be sustainable but everyone saw what he was capable of last season if he was just stronger and now he is proving them right, so far. And now Turris has started playing good PK minutes which shows how he has become a good 2-way player.

all of that can be applied to Gagner as well. He has never been questioned in his dedication to improving and he's gotten stronger and faster every year. He showed all that potential as a rookie and he certainly hasn't plateaued. He's been a young player who's been treated like a veteran with so many younger players on the team, he hasn't been as sheltered as he should have been but he's pulled through and keeps improving areas of his game. It may not have always showed up on the stat sheet, but anyone watching Sam Gagner who thinks he's the same player he was even last season is just not paying attention. At the same age as Turris he's basically baby sitting a raw rookie in Yakupov and playing with a some what enigmatic veteran... That should say a lot about what the Oilers think of Sam Gagner.

Just because a lot of Oiler fans want a different type of center on the 2nd line doesn't mean Gagner is a terrible player. A strong argument can be made that he's been the oilers top forward this year....

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01-30-2013, 12:12 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by ErikKarlsson View Post
Which is fine if you think team situation doesn't matter and if you think all players develop at the exact same rate.

When you have 2 players that are under 25 and played in entirely different situations then its not as easy as oh lets compare career numbers and we will know who is better. Turris maybe wasn't the most mature person and not the best player in PHX but he had the tools to become one, since the trade to Ottawa he has really stepped towards becoming the player everyone knew he could be.

Last season for instance, Ottawa was on pace for over 100 points after the Turris trade after everyone predicted Ottawa to battle the Oilers for the 1st overall pick. Yes he is not the only reason that the team played so well but making that move really helped the offence get solid depth and allowed the team to be 4th in the entire league in goals for.

Turris only played 49 games with Ottawa but he was on pace for 20 goals and 28 assists for 48 points. Those are very similar numbers to Sam Gagner's career though so I can see why people would compare the 2. However this off season Turris was signed to a new contract and really dedicated himself to getting stronger and it has really showed, he is strong on the puck, faster and just seems to really have taken the step to the next level. It might not be sustainable but everyone saw what he was capable of last season if he was just stronger and now he is proving them right, so far. And now Turris has started playing good PK minutes which shows how he has become a good 2-way player.

Like I've said earlier in this thread, Gagner could also improve more to become a better player but he doesn't seem to have the same 2-way game while they are probably both going to put up similar offensive numbers. So if I had to choose who I thought would become a better player, I'd bank my money on Turris and I don't think that is a homerish at all, but I can see why some people might think that Gagner might be that guy too.
If I've learned anything as an Oiler fan on HF, it's that pro-rated stats are irrelevant.

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01-30-2013, 12:35 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by dss97 View Post


Actually, Gagner has been making a ton of progress in his two way game. He played fairly tough minutes last year and came out with a team best +5 on the second worst team in the NHL, he's improved drastically at face-offs (he's better at faceoffs than Turris), and he actually plays a lot grittier compared to when he was 18. Hell, he will even stick up for his teammates and fight and he usually does quite well, with the exception of his fight with Beauchemin (who's a really tough customer I might add).

The only thing that hasn't improved in Gagner's game is literally his numbers, although his 6 points in 5 games so far is decent for a guy who is notorious for starting slow.

I find the bolded comment quite odd because you seem to be guilty of this yourself.
Turris over the last 3 years
10/11 270/540 50%
11/12 338/723 46.8%
12/13 47/104 45.2%
Avg 47.91%

Gagner
10/11 410/935 43.8%
11/12 334/701 47.6%
12/13 31/72 43%
avg 45.37%

Care to elaborate? Is he matching up against better competition? Can you definitively say that's not true of Turris (I have no clue myself). The two look pretty similar to me, with a slight edge to Turris over the 3 years, but Gagner evening it up recently.

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01-30-2013, 12:38 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
What if 5 years from now, Gagners still getting 40 points and turris is a first liner? Then it would be not even close. You can use ainec when comparing futures if you believe they won't be close in the future. That being said, this poll asks this year therefor I agree with you
It would be almost as realistic to suggest Gagner to be a first liner with Turris still getting 28 points a season

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01-30-2013, 12:40 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
If you just look at stats, you answer like this. If you've seen his development, you would understand. Gagner has plateau'd. Turris is getting better.
Based on what exactly?

Gagner hasn't had the benefit of playing with Spezza, Alfredsson, Karlsson and Michalek...the Oilers have always been one of the lowest scoring teams the past 4 years yet Gagner continues to put up 40+ points

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01-30-2013, 12:52 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
Turris over the last 3 years
10/11 270/540 50%
11/12 338/723 46.8%
12/13 47/104 45.2%
Avg 47.91%

Gagner
10/11 410/935 43.8%
11/12 334/701 47.6%
12/13 31/72 43%
avg 45.37%

Care to elaborate? Is he matching up against better competition? Can you definitively say that's not true of Turris (I have no clue myself). The two look pretty similar to me, with a slight edge to Turris over the 3 years, but Gagner evening it up recently.
Sure.

Notice how you bolded "improved drastically at face-offs".. 5 games is far too small of a sample size and Gagner was better last year, so I stand by my statement that Gagner is currently better at faceoffs.

If anything you backed up my statement that Gagner has improved at the dot (which was my original point, since the poster I was quoting said Gagner had plateau'd, which is totally false).

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01-30-2013, 12:57 PM
  #294
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Based on what exactly?

Gagner hasn't had the benefit of playing with Spezza, Alfredsson, Karlsson and Michalek...the Oilers have always been one of the lowest scoring teams the past 4 years yet Gagner continues to put up 40+ points
Neither has Turris.

Until he went to Ottawa.

I'm not sure why using Turris' stats prior to that even factor in.

You can say "small sample size", and that would be accurate.

In Phoenix, Turris was playing 11 minutes a game (2010-2011) while Gagner was playing 17.

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01-30-2013, 12:57 PM
  #295
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Sure.

Notice how you bolded "improved drastically at face-offs".. 5 games is far too small of a sample size and Gagner was better last year, so I stand by my statement that Gagner is currently better at faceoffs.

If anything you backed up my statement that Gagner has improved at the dot (which was my original point, since the poster I was quoting said Gagner had plateau'd, which is totally false).
His dramatically improved year is still worse than Turris' 3 year avg. So, again, how is he definitively better than Turris in that aspect?

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01-30-2013, 12:59 PM
  #296
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For more perspective, that means Turris was 11th in icetime among forwards and Gagner was 4th.

No one disagrees that Turris hasn't had much of a career up to the trade to Ottawa.

But I don't see why Oilers fans are so averse to the possibility that Turris is in a much different situation in Ottawa and appears to be flourishing thus far.

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01-30-2013, 01:52 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by ErikKarlsson View Post
Which is fine if you think team situation doesn't matter and if you think all players develop at the exact same rate.

When you have 2 players that are under 25 and played in entirely different situations then its not as easy as oh lets compare career numbers and we will know who is better. Turris maybe wasn't the most mature person and not the best player in PHX but he had the tools to become one, since the trade to Ottawa he has really stepped towards becoming the player everyone knew he could be.

Last season for instance, Ottawa was on pace for over 100 points after the Turris trade after everyone predicted Ottawa to battle the Oilers for the 1st overall pick. Yes he is not the only reason that the team played so well but making that move really helped the offence get solid depth and allowed the team to be 4th in the entire league in goals for.

Turris only played 49 games with Ottawa but he was on pace for 20 goals and 28 assists for 48 points. Those are very similar numbers to Sam Gagner's career though so I can see why people would compare the 2. However this off season Turris was signed to a new contract and really dedicated himself to getting stronger and it has really showed, he is strong on the puck, faster and just seems to really have taken the step to the next level. It might not be sustainable but everyone saw what he was capable of last season if he was just stronger and now he is proving them right, so far. And now Turris has started playing good PK minutes which shows how he has become a good 2-way player.

Like I've said earlier in this thread, Gagner could also improve more to become a better player but he doesn't seem to have the same 2-way game while they are probably both going to put up similar offensive numbers. So if I had to choose who I thought would become a better player, I'd bank my money on Turris and I don't think that is a homerish at all, but I can see why some people might think that Gagner might be that guy too.
Good post

I really didnt try to put too much emphasis on the team situation. I know how Gagner and Turris started their pro careers is much different. I know Turris and Phoenix never seemed like a good fit and I agree it takes a lot of players to find their stride in the NHL in their twenties.

But it's not like Turris is the only one who has had his ups and downs. Gags has been everywhere in our lineup from 4th line to 1st line and has played with some less than ideal teammates. He has had to work through some injuries and has had to try and find his game at times, but he has proven to be an nhler every step of the way, where Turris hasnt imo.

I just pointed out the career totals because their is such a massive difference between the two and it shouldnt be held against Gagner because players develop differently. Gagner has been the better contributer every step of the way, so why is it so out of the question that it won't be the same this year?

Everything you say about Turris in Ottawa I agree with. He does seem like the right fit and this could be where he really establishes himself as top 6 nhl forward, but him putting up comparable points to Gags is a little different when your comparing Sam's 371 games in Edmonton to Turris's 55 games in Ottawa, in terms of production. Turris did have a stretch with Ottawa last year where in 14 games he went 1g and 1a. Who says he still won't have his struggles?

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01-30-2013, 01:54 PM
  #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Brodziak View Post
It is a crap shoot, we are talking about a season that is no where near complete but the fact is one player has achieved a lot more than the other so far.

I do think there is a good chance that Turris has a better season and becomes the better player but the way you guys act like its already a foregone conclussion is flat out ridiculous imo.

371 gp 79g 147a
192 gp 35g 46a
while being drafted in the same year (and Sam being drafted lower)

Yeah, there's a lot more to it then this but that difference is pretty substantial.

Is this the year Turris proves to be the better player and have a better season? Maybe, but so far he's 0-5 in proving it his first 5 years. Not the type of bet I would be willing to make.

Show some respect for Samwise
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
Some friendly advice. Stats of the past mean little when comparing 2 very young players. All you talk about is stats...which leads me to believe you don't watch sens games. You watch the highlights at night or in the morning and surf NHL.com stats. Gagners scored more goals in his career so he must have a better shot,right?
Child please, here's my friendly advice: re-read the bolded

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01-30-2013, 02:09 PM
  #299
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His dramatically improved year is still worse than Turris' 3 year avg. So, again, how is he definitively better than Turris in that aspect?
Please re-read my post.

He was better last year, and that wasn't the point of my post.

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01-30-2013, 02:13 PM
  #300
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But Turris has crosbyesque hockey sense

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