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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread I

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Old
01-22-2013, 06:57 AM
  #301
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by gmm View Post
Jagr who "failed to lift the Capitals to greatness" and LaFleur's dominant playoff performances are objective factors that can be used to make a case for one player over another.
No single player could have lifted the late 90s Pens or early 00s Capitals to greatness.

I defy anyone to show that any of those teams were considered contenders by anyone of note.

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01-22-2013, 07:03 AM
  #302
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The capitals were a declining contender when Jagr got there and made them worse

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01-22-2013, 07:08 AM
  #303
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Morenz was the best in the late 20s and early 30s. Shore was the best in the mid-late 30s
Nalyd dubbed Shore the best player of his generation.

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01-22-2013, 07:09 AM
  #304
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This doesn't surprise me. From what I've read, Beliveau was widely considered the best player in hockey in the second half of the 1950s, while Hull was considered the best player through most of the 1960s. And kudos to Howe for basically being second to Hull in the second best decade of Howe's career.
Yeah I'm not too shaken up by Beliveau coming out on the bottom. If it were '55-'65 he'd probably fare much better. Hull and Mikita were 9 years younger than him.

I actually found and article that said Beliveau strongly considered retiring at the end of the '63 season, but held off as some other vets moved out the same year.

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01-22-2013, 08:02 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
OKAY...

Generally I like the idea of picking the best player available, but since this is starting from scratch you want to go strong down the middle. The usual suspects have been picked accordingly and a couple of those I thought might remain, didn't.

- I'm going with a team leader, an offensive force in the early years, taking care of business in the 2nd half of his career.
- A mean SOB playing with an edge and who'd be suspended a number of times if he played in today's NHL. The man who patented the "crosscheck to the back and work up to the neck but take one hand of the stick to make it look subtle" maneuver.
- 3 time Stanley Cup winner with a Conn Smythe.
- 5 time all-star, although I don't think he cared too much about that.

Someone who I hated but begrudgingly admired greatly throughout his career. I also believe in defense first and I'm naming him team captain right off the stick: SCOTT STEVENS

I like this pick, though I'm speaking as someone who went through a "Devils fan" phase .

Still, were there maybe better guys available? Absolutely, but having Stevens as your #1 guy is nothing to be ashamed of. As you said, he brings a lot to the table, and he's bound to strike fear into the heart of just about any attacker.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Though I really like:

- How close Jagr has gotten to Hull and Richard
- That when someone finally took a goalie, they didn't blow it
- Yammy's a top 20 player in my books, and it's good to see him get drafted as such. I don't think he'll eclipse Hull or Richard (barring some solid years at the end of his career), but does he deserve to be in the conversation? I say yes.
- Thank you sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
This was the guy I was talking to when referring to Jagr.While Jagr has deserved to be ranked higher than Lafleur , I think Lafleur has gotten underrated in an ATD sense since I've been around as a GM.I don't recall Lafleur making any noise whatsoever but people shouldn't forget how dominant Lafleur was and that he was above all a great champion and a very clutch player.

As much as I respect and love guys like Clarke and Trottier , I think everybody I ever talked to who watched all these players almost invariably rank Lafleur higher than them.
Jagr absolutely should be higher than Lafleur, and that's no disrespect to Flower. I think 20th-22nd is where he should be picked, maybe higher in a draft that's less..."bizarro", as VI put it .

As far as the idea of him being better than Clarke and Trottier, it's tough to say. I think offensively, it's no contest, but if you're looking for guys who play a more complete game, Clarke and Trottier would both trump Lafleur.

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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
The Viking Maniacs selects defenseman Viacheslav Fetisov. I have PM:ed the next guy(guys).
Nice.

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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Nice choice...IMO he's not only better than Robinson, but closer to Potvin and Kelly than he is to Robinson.
Arguably better than Robinson, but I'm not so sure about the 2nd part of your statement. I've never had him on my team, so I admittedly haven't looked deeply into his resume.

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01-22-2013, 08:12 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Nalyd dubbed Shore the best player of his generation.
While early in his career Morenz was considered better, by the end, there should be no doubt who was superior. Morenz declined steeply while Shore just kept getting better.,

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01-22-2013, 08:15 AM
  #307
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The capitals were a declining contender when Jagr got there and made them worse
The Capitals were a contender?

They were a Cinderella finalist in 98. I think everyone will agree on that.

The season after the Finals run the Caps were a 68 point club.

Some decline.

Very briefly they spiked back up to 102 and 96 points in a very weak division (the two worst teams in hockey the first season and two of the worst three in the second) while losing in the first round both seasons. Ironically both lost to the Pens. Once to Jagr's Penguins which were an 88 point club that upset the Caps 102 point club. The second time to Jagr & Lemieux going to the final four.

Jagr arrives in Washington and although he misses 13 games he still leads the team in scoring. Some of their key players are obviously aging and declining. Not to mention one of them also misses 16 games.

They post 85 points that first season, 92 the second - reversing the decline.

The third season the team is awful. Jagr is traded Jan 24. After that the Caps finish the season 9-19-5.

Now I'm not defending his seemingly disinterested play in Washington. As a matter of fact, I'm going to research it in more detail for his bio.

That being said, there is no way anyone was picking Washington as a contender by the time Jagr got there, and the team was declining around him while he was there.

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01-22-2013, 09:20 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This doesn't surprise me. From what I've read, Beliveau was widely considered the best player in hockey in the second half of the 1950s, while Hull was considered the best player through most of the 1960s. And kudos to Howe for basically being second to Hull in the second best decade of Howe's career.
that hull won does not surprise me at all. the huge margin, and the very low numbers for everyone but howe surprise me.

seems to me that a lot of howe's total was based on setting career marks and establishing himself as GOAT, but that is speculative.

there were also a few others who got votes, but they are undrafted.

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Old
01-22-2013, 10:42 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
The Capitals were a contender?

They were a Cinderella finalist in 98. I think everyone will agree on that.

The season after the Finals run the Caps were a 68 point club.

Some decline.

Very briefly they spiked back up to 102 and 96 points in a very weak division (the two worst teams in hockey the first season and two of the worst three in the second) while losing in the first round both seasons. Ironically both lost to the Pens. Once to Jagr's Penguins which were an 88 point club that upset the Caps 102 point club. The second time to Jagr & Lemieux going to the final four.

Jagr arrives in Washington and although he misses 13 games he still leads the team in scoring. Some of their key players are obviously aging and declining. Not to mention one of them also misses 16 games.

They post 85 points that first season, 92 the second - reversing the decline.

The third season the team is awful. Jagr is traded Jan 24. After that the Caps finish the season 9-19-5.

Now I'm not defending his seemingly disinterested play in Washington. As a matter of fact, I'm going to research it in more detail for his bio.

That being said, there is no way anyone was picking Washington as a contender by the time Jagr got there, and the team was declining around him while he was there.
Why did you bold the one poor season in 1999 then try to pass off the following 2 seasons as a "spike?"

W-L-T, then W-L-T-OTL

1998: 40-30-12, 92 points, cup finals
1999: 31-45-6, 68 points, no playoffs
2000: 44-24-12-2 102 points, lost in first round
2001: 41-27-10-4, 96 points, lost in first round

The fact is that the Washington Capitals were seen as a borderline contender that needed something extra to get them over the hump. Jagr, coming off 4 straight Art Rosses, was supposed to be that extra something.

After 2001, the Capitals acquired Jaromir Jagr without giving up a single roster player, and he was supposed to be the guy who put them over the top. The official deal was Traded to Washington by Pittsburgh with Frantisek Kucera for Kris Beech, Michal Sivek, Ross Lupaschuk and future considerations, July 11, 2001.

2002: 36-33-11-2, 85 points, no playoffs
2003: 39-29-8-6, 92 points, lost in first round
2004: 23-46-10-3, 59 points, no playoffs

How much of a failure did Washington consider the Jagr years? So much that on January 23, 2004 they traded him to the Rangers for Anson Carter AND agreed to pay more than a third of his salary just to be rid of him. Yes, part of it was about money, but...

With most of these players, there is some guesswork. How will he play if my ATD team puts him in a situation he didn't experience in real life? With Jagr, there is no guesswork. If you don't build a team that caters to his specific needs, he'll make no effort to fit in. If you do cater to him, he's a great asset.


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Old
01-22-2013, 11:02 AM
  #310
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With our first selection, the 24th overall in this year All-Time Draft, Les Nordiques de Québec are very proud to select, from Edmonton, Canada, C/LW Mark Messier



''Messier brings a level of dedication, commitment and leadership that les Nordiques were looking to acquire to anchor our franchise. His scoring abilities, grit, strength, speed, versatility, playoff prowess and two-way abilities will be invaluable to our success. We are thrill and looking forward to build a championship team around Mark.''

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01-22-2013, 11:08 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
With our first selection, the 24th overall in this year All-Time Draft, Les Nordiques de Québec are very proud to select, from Edmonton, Canada, C/LW Mark Messier



''Messier brings a level of dedication, commitment and leadership that les Nordiques were looking to acquire to anchor our franchise. His scoring abilities, grit, strength, speed, versatility, playoff prowess and two-way abilities will be invaluable to our success. We are thrill and looking forward to build a championship team around Mark.''
very good pick , Messier was a beast and what a playoff resume on top of everything.

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01-22-2013, 11:08 AM
  #312
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I was hoping Messier would fall to #28 like he did last year, but I wasn't expecting him to.

I honestly have no idea why he always goes so far behind Trottier and Clarke. Actually I do have an idea - too many damn Canucks fans in this thing.

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01-22-2013, 11:12 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I was hoping Messier would fall to #28 like he did last year, but I wasn't expecting him to.

I honestly have no idea why he always goes so far behind Trottier and Clarke. Actually I do have an idea - too many damn Canucks fans in this thing.
Won't lie , I'm ranking Messier over them.By an hair.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 01-22-2013 at 11:20 AM.
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01-22-2013, 11:42 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Why did you bold the one poor season in 1999 then try to pass off the following 2 seasons as a "spike?"
Because a "contender" doesn't go from the Stanley Cup Finals to a 68 point non-playoff team over the summer.

It was a spike. Lets have a more thorough look:

1997: 75 points, no playoffs
1998: 92 points, cup finals
1999: 68 points, no playoffs
2000: 102 points, lost in first round
2001: 96 points, lost in first round

Jagr arrives

2002: 85 points, no playoffs
2003: 92 points, lost first
2004: 59 points -- Jagr traded mid season, no playoffs
2005: 70 points, no playoffs
2006: 70 points, no playoffs

A single 100 point regular season in 10 years (and that 100 point season in a division that featured the two worst teams in the league) does not scream contender to me.



Quote:
The fact is that the Washington Capitals were seen as a borderline contender that needed something extra to get them over the hump. Jagr, coming off 4 straight Art Rosses, was supposed to be that extra something.
Borderline is putting it mildly. I'm going to look into more contemporary reports about how Washington was seen. I don't remember them being contenders at all, personally.

I fully agree that Jagr should have been better -- and that the Caps would have been better if he had been. But no way that team was going anywhere with the surrounding pieces when he arrived.

A couple of important players were on the strict downhill slope when he got there and were never adequately replaced.


Quote:
With most of these players, there is some guesswork. How will he play if my ATD team puts him in a situation he didn't experience in real life? With Jagr, there is no guesswork. If you don't build a team that caters to his specific needs, he'll make no effort to fit in. If you do cater to him, he's a great asset.
I agree that he needs to be utilized properly, and he will be here.

I do think you're overstating how much of bad apple he was.. While compiling the bio I am working on, I've been finding out more about how often he was playing injured and giving his all even when he was being immature at times off the ice.

In Washington it looks like it spread to the ice as well but I'm going to dig into that more when I have time.

Specifically I'm going to try and find some pre-season outlooks and post season wrapups so I can see what was being said at the time about Washington and Jagr.

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Old
01-22-2013, 11:51 AM
  #315
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Won't lie , I'm ranking Messier over them.By an hair.
I think you're crazy if you pick Messier ahead of either.

Only a handful of top-5s in scoring on the highest scoring team in history doesn't seem like much offense to me. He's got an unbelievebly good all-around game, but his offense is pretty weak.

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01-22-2013, 12:20 PM
  #316
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I think you're crazy if you pick Messier ahead of either.

Only a handful of top-5s in scoring on the highest scoring team in history doesn't seem like much offense to me. He's got an unbelievebly good all-around game, but his offense is pretty weak.
Well, being the second line C behind Gretz didn't help. Although there are at least a dozen better offensive forwards left OTB.

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01-22-2013, 12:22 PM
  #317
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I honestly have no idea why he always goes so far behind Trottier and Clarke. Actually I do have an idea - too many damn Canucks fans in this thing.
lol, even though he stunk here I can acknowledge his awesomeness as a player and a leader. This is a good pick by EB's team.

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01-22-2013, 12:30 PM
  #318
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Well, being the second line C behind Gretz didn't help.
Didn't it?

Like Stan Mikita, Messier watched his teammate pull all the top defensive attention.

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01-22-2013, 12:38 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
With our first selection, the 24th overall in this year All-Time Draft, Les Nordiques de Québec are very proud to select, from Edmonton, Canada, C/LW Mark Messier



''Messier brings a level of dedication, commitment and leadership that les Nordiques were looking to acquire to anchor our franchise. His scoring abilities, grit, strength, speed, versatility, playoff prowess and two-way abilities will be invaluable to our success. We are thrill and looking forward to build a championship team around Mark.''
Good call on Messier. He was the forward that I would've picked if I hadn't gone with a defenseman first.

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01-22-2013, 12:46 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I was hoping Messier would fall to #28 like he did last year, but I wasn't expecting him to.

I honestly have no idea why he always goes so far behind Trottier and Clarke. Actually I do have an idea - too many damn Canucks fans in this thing.
If you look at it as centers only I think Messier ended up exactly where he should be. The other teams just happened to value defense and rws over Messier. I might have taken Messier over Lafleur though.

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01-22-2013, 12:50 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Won't lie , I'm ranking Messier over them.By an hair.
Rationale? I could see somebody arguing that Messier is a better value where he was taken compared to Clarke, but straight up better? I don't see it. Messier received much easier checking assignments compared to Clarke's line, which was a huge part of the Flyers offense, whereas Messier played a very clear second fiddle. Clarke won 3 Hart Trophies and a Selke to Messier's 2 Hart Trophies and no Selke, despite it being in existence his whole career, unlike Clarke. They're both absolutely tough as nails, but Messier is bigger so he has an advantage there. Clarke is a clear step up defensively, although Messier is still good in this regard. Clarke led his team in scoring 8 times, and was 2nd twice. Messier led his team in scoring 5 times, and was 2nd 5 times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Well, being the second line C behind Gretz didn't help. Although there are at least a dozen better offensive forwards left OTB.
It helped a lot. Gretzky and his line received the lion's share of the other team's best defensive players, and Messier was often left facing weaker competition.

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01-22-2013, 12:51 PM
  #322
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Hmmm....I'd be interested to see an in-depth analysis between Trottier and Messier. Both have the same amount of top-5 scoring finishes, although Trottier did win an Art Ross while Messier only came in second once. Both have elite intangibles and physicality for centers.

I'd be interested to see the differences.

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01-22-2013, 12:58 PM
  #323
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Hey guys, we'll pick in an hour or two. Still have to do some last-minute evaluation.

Good pick with Messier.

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01-22-2013, 01:03 PM
  #324
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I think you're crazy if you pick Messier ahead of either.

Only a handful of top-5s in scoring on the highest scoring team in history doesn't seem like much offense to me. He's got an unbelievebly good all-around game, but his offense is pretty weak.
I must be crazy because I'd pick Messier over both of them too (by a tiny hair). His defense isn't as good as Clarke, but his offense is quite a bit better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Hmmm....I'd be interested to see an in-depth analysis between Trottier and Messier. Both have the same amount of top-5 scoring finishes, although Trottier did win an Art Ross while Messier only came in second once. Both have elite intangibles and physicality for centers.

I'd be interested to see the differences.
Messier likely wins 2 Art Rosses in a world without Gretzky and Lemieux.

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01-22-2013, 01:06 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I must be crazy because I'd pick Messier over both of them too (by a tiny hair). His defense isn't as good as Clarke, but his offense is quite a bit better.



Messier likely wins 2 Art Rosses in a world without Gretzky and Lemieux.
The same can be said about Clarke in a world without XXX and Orr. I think the argument for Messier over either Clarke or Trottier lies in his incredible playoff performances and longevity.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 01-22-2013 at 01:15 PM.
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