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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread I

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01-22-2013, 07:42 PM
  #376
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Would you have picked someone else than Bourque at 9th based on real life ranking? Hull? Richard?
I would rank both Hull and Richard over Bourque on an "all time list." I would probably pick Bourque over both of them in this format.

If we're including goalies, I probably rank Patrick Roy over Bourque. But I definitely pick Bourque over Roy in this format.

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01-22-2013, 07:44 PM
  #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would rank both Hull and Richard over Bourque on an "all time list." I would probably pick Bourque over both of them in this format.

If we're including goalies, I probably rank Patrick Roy over Bourque. But I definitely pick Bourque over Roy in this format.
I'm not sure why you would rank Maurice Richard over Raymond Bourque.Same with Hull for that matter.They are pretty close and at this point it's a philosophical choice more than anything else.

As for Roy , I think he is way underrated in the ATD but the same goes for every top goalie.

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01-22-2013, 07:45 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
yes I get your point
There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Bobby Hull is a better All-Time player than Raymond Bourque. Maurice Richard is closer, but I would still put 'The Rocket' ahead. I indeed took Bourque over Richard 3-4 drafts, which at the time was a very surprising move (not anymore). A case can be made of Eddie Shore over Raymond Bourque, it will be interesting to see the studies that will pop out this draft.

... But in the ATD, there's nothing wrong picking Bourque over all those players.

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01-22-2013, 07:46 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
He's definately a shoot-first player.
Not really. He's Mario-lite for me, if Vecens isn't able to get Morenz a good playmaking winger than he is a good enough passer to set up whatever snipers they put on line 1.

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01-22-2013, 07:48 PM
  #380
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On second thought it's hard to argue for Bourque over Hull , but I would rank Bourque over the Rocket.

They are all pretty close , in the same tier of being in the Top 3 player at their position (D/F) outside the big four.

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01-22-2013, 07:49 PM
  #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
I'm not sure why you would rank Maurice Richard over Raymond Bourque.Same with Hull for that matter.They are pretty close and at this point it's a philosophical choice more than anything else.

As for Roy , I think he is way underrated in the ATD but the same goes for every top goalie.
I don't think there's any philosophy involved in ranking a 7 time goalscoring champ over Bourque. Hull is beyond a doubt the best goal scorer in hockey history. Bourque has nothing except longevity on the players ranked above him. He ranks where he does because his peak just sin't high enough to be better. While Hull was better than Gretzky at something Gretzky was great at.

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01-22-2013, 07:49 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Not really. He's Mario-lite for me, if Vecens isn't able to get Morenz a good playmaking winger than he is a good enough passer to set up whatever snipers they put on line 1.
Yes, Morenz is good enough to be a set up guy. But if you're relying on him to be a set up guy primarily, you're wasting his best asset (his goal scoring). It's similar to Phil Esposito in a way, though Espo has other issues Morenz doesn't.

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01-22-2013, 07:52 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I don't think there's any philosophy involved in ranking a 7 time goalscoring champ over Bourque. Hull is beyond a doubt the best goal scorer in hockey history. Bourque has nothing except longevity on the players ranked above him. He ranks where he does because his peak just sin't high enough to be better. While Hull was better than Gretzky at something Gretzky was great at.
Yeah I agree , but I still rank Bourque over the Rocket.

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01-22-2013, 07:52 PM
  #384
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Yeah I agree , but I still rank Bourque over the Rocket.
You need to turn in your Canadiens fan card immediately!

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01-22-2013, 07:53 PM
  #385
Nalyd Psycho
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I don't see Morenz as particularly hard to build around. Sure he wouldn't work with a Richard type winger, but most offensive wingers are relatively balanced.

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01-22-2013, 07:53 PM
  #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yes, Morenz is good enough to be a set up guy. But if you're relying on him to be a set up guy primarily, you're wasting his best asset (his goal scoring). It's similar to Phil Esposito in a way, though Espo has other issues Morenz doesn't.
Yeah, the best guy you can get is a complete player who can do both pass and shoot. You don't want simply a sniper, and you don't want simply a playmaker to take full advantage of his offense.

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01-22-2013, 07:55 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You need to turn in your Canadiens fan card immediately!
I'm not known as a biased guy and never will.

The Rocket was the most clutch goal scorer that ever lived , but he was also a brainless floater who waited for the Harvey feed. (exaggeration)

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01-22-2013, 07:56 PM
  #388
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Howie is also one of the rare players at this level good enough to take the puck and put it in the net on his own (Jags is another one).

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01-22-2013, 07:56 PM
  #389
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
I'm not known as a biased guy and never will.

The Rocket was the most clutch goal scorer that ever lived , but he was also a floater who waited for the Harvey feed.
I saw no evidence that the Rocket floated any more than any other scoring winger before Harvey came to town, and believe me, I looked. He also turned himself into a strong defensive player his last 2 years in the league after he slowed down.

I also don't think defense is a disadvantage for the Rocket when compared to Bobby Hull.

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01-22-2013, 07:58 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Howie is also one of the rare players at this level good enough to take the puck and put it in the net on his own (Jags is another one).
In the first two rounds, that skill isn't really that rare. Richard, Hull, Lafleur, Lemieux, Gretzky, Mikita... Most forwards drafted already have that skills, players that don't like Trottier bring so many other things to the table that it is forgivable, but this is an all time draft, some skills that are incredibly rare in a snapshot of time, become less rare in the big picture.

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01-22-2013, 07:59 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I saw no evidence that the Rocket floated any more than any other scoring winger before Harvey came to town, and believe me, I looked. He also turned himself into a strong defensive player his last 2 years in the league after he slowed down.

I also don't think defense is a disadvantage for the Rocket when compared to Bobby Hull.
Can't prove it , just things I've heard repeatedly from people who watched him every nights.

(At 5$ the ticket no less , **** our lives)

So basically just forget I've mentionned it.I still believe them though so I'll never back down but I won't pretend like people should listen to me because I've heard it.But hey I'm from Montreal , 5 generations and counting.


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01-22-2013, 08:00 PM
  #392
Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I saw no evidence that the Rocket floated any more than any other scoring winger before Harvey came to town, and believe me, I looked. He also turned himself into a strong defensive player his last 2 years in the league after he slowed down.

I also don't think defense is a disadvantage for the Rocket when compared to Bobby Hull.
Yeah, the claws have really come out against Richard and I can't figure out why.

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01-22-2013, 08:01 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Can't prove it , just things I've heard repeatedly from people who watched him every nights.

(At 5$ the ticket no less , **** our lives)
The thing is; all the Canadiens forwards "floated" when Harvey had the puck - it was part of the coach's game plan for the team, once he realized just how well Harvey controlled the puck. For some reason, only Richard gets criticized for it.

Edit: I think Richard gets highly criticized for lack of defense because he's often compared to Gordie Howe, and he falls way short there. But I don't see Richard's D being any better or worse than your typical scoring winger.

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01-22-2013, 08:02 PM
  #394
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The Fireworks select LW Ted Lindsay

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Old
01-22-2013, 08:07 PM
  #395
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The thing is; all the Canadiens forwards "floated" when Harvey had the puck - it was part of the coach's game plan for the team, once he realized just how well Harvey controlled the puck. For some reason, only Richard gets criticized for it.
Because Richard was a brainless player , anyway that's what I heard from various and unrelated ''direct'' sources.(by direct I mean they saw the 50s dynasty live at the forum)

One thing I've heard repeatedly also is (reference to undrafted)

And M.Richard somewhat represented something important for french canadiens at the time , if they said that they truly meant it


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01-22-2013, 08:07 PM
  #396
Nalyd Psycho
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Lindsay was easily the BPA IMO. Picking between Lindsay and Messier is actually very difficult. Lindsay has better scoring finishes. Messier has better Hart finishes and played in an era with a deeper top end of the scoring pool.

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01-22-2013, 08:11 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Lindsay was easily the BPA IMO. Picking between Lindsay and Messier is actually very difficult. Lindsay has better scoring finishes. Messier has better Hart finishes and played in an era with a deeper top end of the scoring pool.
I would definitely pick Messier between the two of them, but Lindsay's unique skill set is very attractive at this point.

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01-22-2013, 08:12 PM
  #398
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Lindsay is a good choice , I still have a lot to learn about him though.Hopefully I can catch up this time around.

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01-22-2013, 08:21 PM
  #399
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BTW , is it me or this 1st round has been going very well? The pace is pretty good.

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01-22-2013, 08:30 PM
  #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
BTW , is it me or this 1st round has been going very well? The pace is pretty good.
Not only in terms of pace, but also in terms of conversation and discussion.

Lots to talk about in a 1st round had become rare, as opposed to going through the top 15/18 with "good pick, good pick, etc."

Not saying we should shake things up intentionally, but it definitely opens up some areas for discussion, which is a huge part of the ATD

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