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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread I

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01-22-2013, 07:39 PM
  #401
Velociraptor
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I like how this ATD has not been routine, in the sense that modern era players are finally making the jumps to their perhaps "destined" spot in the draft, and possibly on an all-time ranking. I haven't been as engaged in the conversation because I spend most my time catching up, but this has been the best first round since I've been a part of the ATD, and I thought it would be agonizing because there's 59 selections in between my picks.

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01-22-2013, 07:42 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would definitely pick Messier between the two of them, but Lindsay's unique skill set is very attractive at this point.
I too rank Messier above, but the similarities are clear and IMo there should never be a large gap between them.

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01-22-2013, 07:43 PM
  #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
I like how this ATD has not been routine, in the sense that modern era players are finally making the jumps to their perhaps "destined" spot in the draft, and possibly on an all-time ranking. I haven't been as engaged in the conversation because I spend most my time catching up, but this has been the best first round since I've been a part of the ATD, and I thought it would be agonizing because there's 59 selections in between my picks.
I get what you're saying , but I'm not sure the modern players have been picked at their ''destined'' place just yet.

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01-22-2013, 08:01 PM
  #404
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I get what you're saying , but I'm not sure the modern players have been picked at their ''destined'' place just yet.
Lidstrom definitely, and you'd have to think Jagr is close.

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01-22-2013, 08:06 PM
  #405
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For Jagr to move up, there will have to be a Jagr vs Richard debate.

Where's my popcorn maker?

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01-22-2013, 08:10 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Lidstrom definitely, and you'd have to think Jagr is close.
I think the in-depth conversations has demonstrated that Raymond Bourque and probably Eddie Shore should still be ranked higher than Lidstrom.I actually think Jagr is less out of place than Lidstrom on this ATD list but that's just my opinion (though it is also the results in the Top 60 defensemen project , not an exact science but a lot of hard work has been put into this list).

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01-22-2013, 08:11 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
For Jagr to move up, there will have to be a Jagr vs Richard debate.

Where's my popcorn maker?
This discussion will happen someday. Perhaps not in the ATD, but at least in the HOH section.

I'm not overly critical about players' drafting position in the ATD. Many different strategies makes players getting picked earlier or later than you would think. That doesn't mean that any of those selection are bad picks. the All-Time Draft is a team building exercise. You can criticize and argue those selection when all the selection are made.

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01-22-2013, 08:12 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Lidstrom definitely, and you'd have to think Jagr is close.
Is Lidstrom really destined to go over Bourque? I'm much more open to the possibility than most people on the history board, but I'm not entirely convinced.

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For Jagr to move up, there will have to be a Jagr vs Richard debate.

Where's my popcorn maker?
It's pretty easy to lay out their strengths and weaknesses.

Jagr = clear advantage in regular season peak
Richard = clear advantage in playoffs, clear advantage in regular season consistency and longevity as an elite player.

I think Jagr went where he should this draft (finally). Any higher, and you have to really start glossing over his weaknesses as a player. Or value regular season peak much more highly than I do. But it was really only three seasons (1997-98 to 1999-00) when Jagr hit a level Richard never did in the regular season, and even then, he didn't consistently carry it into the playoffs.

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01-22-2013, 08:14 PM
  #409
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Well at least pretty soon all of these careers will be over and we'll have the complete picture (not that it should change a whole lot though).

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01-22-2013, 08:16 PM
  #410
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I think Richard is one player whose longevity and consistency as an elite player in the regular season is very underrated today. He was a 1st or 2nd Team All Star 14 straight seasons, most of them competing directly against Gordie Howe at the RW position (and it's not like the position was weak other than Howe at the time).

Jagr was a 1st or 2nd Team All Star 8 times, 7 of them in a row.

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01-22-2013, 08:20 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Richard is one player whose longevity and consistency as an elite player in the regular season is very underrated today. He was a 1st or 2nd Team All Star 14 straight seasons, most of them competing directly against Gordie Howe at the RW position (and it's not like the position was weak other than Howe at the time).

Jagr was a 1st or 2nd Team All Star 8 times, 7 of them in a row.
Let's face it though , being a 1st all-star team was a lot easier back then.Not because the competition was weaker at the top , but because the odds of someone having an outlier year and grabbing a 1st all star team is stronger if there's more talented players in the league (not sure if that applies to the year Jagr didn't have any , just saying in general).

Jagr scored 30 goals in 15 consecutive seasons.So it's not like he was a ghost in those other years but maybe that's not enough to compare to Richard's consistant eliteness.

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01-22-2013, 08:23 PM
  #412
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Let's face it though , being a 1st all-star team was a lot easier back then. Not because the competition was weaker at the top , but because the odds of someone having an outlier year and grabbing a 1st all star team is stronger if there's more talented player in the league (not sure if that applies to the year Jagr didn't have any though , just saying in general).

Jagr scored 30 goals in 15 consecutive seasons.So it's not like he was a ghost in those other years but maybe that's not enough.
But the competition at the top are the guys competing for All Star Teams. And I don't think forwards are nearly as likely to have outlier great seasons as goalies.

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01-22-2013, 08:26 PM
  #413
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Wait , I'll verify who were the 1st and 2nd all-star winners when Jagr didn't win and post it.

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01-22-2013, 08:26 PM
  #414
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But the competition at the top are the guys competing for All Star Teams. And I don't think forwards are nearly as likely to have outlier great seasons as goalies.
Arguably the best player of All-Time should be a bigger outliner, than a RW who's not one of the best 18 RW in the world (6 teams, 3 RW per team) that would come out of nowhere and have a better season than Maurice Richard.

EDIT: it would be an interesting study to look at how many players who were not considered top-20 at their own position the year before, that came out of nowhere and got a FAST or SAST.

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Wait , I'll verify who were the 1st and 2nd all-star winners when Jagr didn't win and post it.
Pretty sure at this point in the draft you would, again(!), break the 'no talking about undrafted player' rule.


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01-22-2013, 08:28 PM
  #415
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14 AST's for Richard is still more impressive than 8 for Jagr despite the fact it was done in the 6 team league IMO. I think this is the highest Jagr will reach - the 3rd RW selected.

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01-22-2013, 08:30 PM
  #416
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01-22-2013, 08:33 PM
  #417
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at eaglebelfour - LOL just posted Jagr's competition and once again broke the undrafted rules LOLLLLLL

oh well , I'm now convinced to be against this rule.It limits discussions way too much.Nobody is going to come back to discuss Jagr vs Richard in the 4th round when we can name some players that are indirectly useful in the debate.

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01-22-2013, 08:34 PM
  #418
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Holy undrafteds

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01-22-2013, 08:34 PM
  #419
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After the Xth time, people will start believing you're making it on purpose Reen.

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01-22-2013, 08:37 PM
  #420
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After the Xth time, people will start believing you're making it on purpose Reen.
this is truly not the case , and I've never been a critic of the rule before so it's not like I'm trying to make a political point.I'm even pretty sure I voted FOR the rule in the past.

edit: yup , confirmed in the link TDMM posted below.

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01-22-2013, 08:37 PM
  #421
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The last time we have a vote on whether to change the rule about undrafted players, keeping the rule won in a landslide: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...php?t=1104233&

Feel free to make a new poll if you want, but until then, respect the wishes of the large majority of your fellow GMs.

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01-22-2013, 08:46 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Let's face it though , being a 1st all-star team was a lot easier back then.Not because the competition was weaker at the top , but because the odds of someone having an outlier year and grabbing a 1st all star team is stronger if there's more talented players in the league (not sure if that applies to the year Jagr didn't have any , just saying in general).

Jagr scored 30 goals in 15 consecutive seasons.So it's not like he was a ghost in those other years but maybe that's not enough to compare to Richard's consistant eliteness.
We can have this discussion more in round 5 or 6, but Richard's competition was stiffer.

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01-22-2013, 08:51 PM
  #423
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We can have this discussion more in round 5 or 6, but Richard's competition was stiffer.
I wonder how the trophy case of Maurice Richard would look if we took Gordie Howe out of the equation. If we take Gretzky out, we could surely do the same with Howe

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01-22-2013, 08:51 PM
  #424
Jafar
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We can have this discussion more in round 5 or 6, but Richard's competition was stiffer.
Well , discussions will rarely came back like that 6 rounds later , not to mention many , many discussions will arise in between.

Might happen in the playoffs.

If not , it'll have to wait until the Top 60 Forward or Wingers Project.

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01-22-2013, 08:56 PM
  #425
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I wonder how the trophy case of Maurice Richard would look if we took Gordie Howe out of the equation. If we take Gretzky out, we could surely do the same with Howe
I don't think that's fair , Gretzky was much more offensively dominant than Howe ever was , not matter how many mathematical acrobatics you do with the adjusted stats.

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