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ATD 2013 - Trading thread

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Old
04-01-2013, 09:57 PM
  #451
markrander87
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with your team, and everything to do with the trade itself.

Let's keep it on topic here.

Last time I checked, this had everything to do with my team, my team is apparently the team that is gaining so much extra from this trade.

Also can somebody explain to me how both Vecens and Dreakmur can be on the trade committee when they are both Co-gming the same team..

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04-01-2013, 10:00 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
BTW Dreak you took quite the 180 on my team. 4 days ago you say im easily dead last in our division and now you are arguing teeth and nail that Im giving up so much value...you must really like my team now.
You've got it backwards - I'm arguing that you're not giving up enough.

Furthermore, I'd hardy say me making a couple comments is fighting tooth and nail. I've actually made an attempt to stay out of it, since I have confidence in the rest of the comittee to reject these deals.

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04-01-2013, 10:03 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Last time I checked, this had everything to do with my team, my team is apparently the team that is gaining so much extra from this trade.

Also can somebody explain to me how both Vecens and Dreakmur can be on the trade committee when they are both Co-gming the same team..
For the first part, we're simply evaluating based on the pieces involved here. That's it.

As far as why does it matter if we're both on the trade committee? We're both impartial observers here. The trade committee and the draft itself doesn't work if you don't trust your fellow GMs. This has nothing to do with us being in your division, period.

This is now distracting from talk of the actual trade itself. Please keep the discussion on topic. Final warning.

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04-01-2013, 10:04 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You've got it backwards - I'm arguing that you're not giving up enough.

Furthermore, I'd hardy say me making a couple comments is fighting tooth and nail. I've actually made an attempt to stay out of it, since I have confidence in the rest of the comittee to reject these deals.
Well considering your team gets 2 7ths of the votes to reject or accept a deal, I can see why youd be so relaxed.

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04-01-2013, 10:34 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Well considering your team gets 2 7ths of the votes to reject or accept a deal, I can see why youd be so relaxed.
I didn't vote on the first one, and I won't vote on this one. I have abstained from voting on any trade that I felt conflicted about, and this is one of them.

Of course, if you really had an issue with it, you probably should have said something when I posted this as the comittee was being formed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I don't mind helping out, but if anybody has a problem with both vecens and me on the committee, I won't be offended

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04-01-2013, 10:43 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You've got it backwards - I'm arguing that you're not giving up enough.

Furthermore, I'd hardy say me making a couple comments is fighting tooth and nail. I've actually made an attempt to stay out of it, since I have confidence in the rest of the comittee to reject these deals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I didn't vote on the first one, and I won't vote on this one. I have abstained from voting on any trade that I felt conflicted about, and this is one of them.

So what was your first point regarding these deals

It's a genuine question? so you are conflicted with this trade so you will not vote? If so then my apologies, from all of your posts it had me convinced you were 100% against it.


Quote:
Of course, if you really had an issue with it, you probably should have said something when I posted this as the comittee was being formed:
Oh forgive me for not sifting through all 300 pages of ATD discussion.

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04-01-2013, 10:50 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So what was your first point regarding these deals

It's a genuine question? so you are conflicted with this trade so you will not vote? If so then my apologies, from all of your posts it had me convinced you were 100% against it.
I am 100% against both deals. I do, however, realize that I have a conflict of interest, and that could potientially taint my opinion, and that's why I will not vote.

Just because I won't vote doesn't mean I won't make a few comments.

Quote:
Oh forgive me for not sifting through all 300 pages of ATD discussion.
Just wanted to point out that I threw it out there right off the bat, and nobody had an issue with it. It's not like this went under the radar. I brought it up specifically because I figured some people may not have realized we were co-GMs.

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04-02-2013, 02:27 AM
  #458
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Are you serious, that is a 142 pick difference, one of the top if not the top backups compared to a middle of the road backup. If it doesnt matter, why do we even draft players past pick 500 then.

So your telling me when you look at a hockey team and when they play an entire regular season and playoff that the back up goalie holds no value...
Compared to the difference between the 15th overall pick (Kelly) and the 29th overall pick (Lindsay) or any of the other swaps, the difference between backups is negligible and makes very little difference in evaluating this trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Just wanted to point out that I threw it out there right off the bat, and nobody had an issue with it. It's not like this went under the radar. I brought it up specifically because I figured some people may not have realized we were co-GMs.
You'd think the only GM who is at the 8 trade limit would have actually paid attention to what is posted in this thread.

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Old
04-02-2013, 05:21 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Its ok man, thanks for speaking up, but this is your first ATD. You will soon realize how things work around here.
So far I'm a little disappointed actually...and btw, I don't kowtow to anybody.

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Old
04-02-2013, 05:54 AM
  #460
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So this trade breaks down to:

Team 1Team 2Difference
1st: 151st: 29+14 Team 1
3rd: 902nd: 50+40 Team 1
6th: 1648th: 242+78 Team 2
18th: 54822nd: 690+142 Team 2

I have erased the player names for the time being so we can focus on the raw value of the picks exchanged. If this deal had happened before the draft, would it have been approved? I would guess not.

It could be argued, perhaps correctly, that a 40 pick swap from the 2nd to 3rd round is worth a 78 pick swap from the 6th to 8th round, so the middle part of this deal probably roughly balances out. Indeed, I don't think Mahovlich/Keats for Gerard/Savard would be seen as problematic.

But is a 14 point jump in the 1st round worth an 18th for 22nd swap? No, it's not. Team 1 gets a major upgrade in the 1st round for almost nothing - the difference between a 4th liner and a spare. But...ah what the hell, how strict a standard do we want to set here?

monster, do you really think you are improving your team in this deal? Did you go to mark with this proposal, or did he come to you? Have you tried to pursue other options in trading Mahovlich and/or Imlach? It is obviously your right not to answer these questions, but I'd like to know, because I am surprised that you would consider this trade (even in its new form) an improvement to your team. My personal opinion is that you could simply fire Imlach (which would be funny) and replace him with an MLD manager and be better off than you are here. Is giving up this much value worth it just to keep Imlach, who was a 16th round pick for you - on par with the value of a 4th liner? Is the difference between a 16th rounder and an MLD guy greater than the value you are giving up in this deal?

But...if you really want to go through with the trade after all this discussion, I will not veto it.

This deal is right on the edge of what I consider imbalancing, but I think this committee has done its part now. The reason that this trade committee exists is to enforce a kind of "due diligence" on GMs when they make trades because of the ripple effect trades have on other teams in the draft. I think that effect has been achieved here. This trade still stinks, but if the guy who is clearly giving up value in the deal thinks it is the best way for him to move forward, I don't think we should stop it, though I'd like to see monster's answers to my questions before I cast an official vote.

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Old
04-02-2013, 06:14 AM
  #461
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
So far I'm a little disappointed actually...and btw, I don't kowtow to anybody.
Wait until you see the playoffs. The drafting part of this process is always a bit lukewarm. Many GMs are overly polite with one another, and/or wary of praising obviously good picks, so much of the drama that will unfold in the playoffs is skimmed over during the actual draft.

But this hasn't been a bad year for the ATD. We've increased our knowledge about a number of players by quite a bit, worked as a group to refine a better system for looking at scoring across NHL eras, and unearthed a major narrative (the genesis of forechecking) in the historical timeline of north american hockey. The ATD is an iterative process, and you were probably expecting a little more action on a day-to-day basis than you've seen thus far.

Most of the players here have already been dissected at length in past drafts, and nobody felt the need to say much when they were selected this time around. If you want to get a full feel for where we are at in the ATD right now, you would have to read through years of past draft threads. That's not to say that you must do such a crazy thing in order to participate, but it would definitely help in making an informed judgment. There are a lot of trees in the ATD (800 of them this time), and they sometimes make it hard to see the forest. What has actually been discussed in ATD 2013 thus far is the tip of the iceberg of what we have learned as a group. You'll see a lot more specifics (and claws) come out once we get into the playoffs.


Last edited by Sturminator: 04-02-2013 at 06:21 AM.
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Old
04-02-2013, 09:42 AM
  #462
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I don't think 15th to 29th is as much of a huge downgrade as some people do. Looking at the players available at those picks, it'd be Bobby Clarke downgraded to Joe Sakic for me. Significant but not terribly so, basically a 2-spot drop on the center chart.

It gets much more complicated when actual players are involved though.

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Old
04-02-2013, 09:47 AM
  #463
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I don't think 15th to 29th is as much of a huge downgrade as some people do. Looking at the players available at those picks, it'd be Bobby Clarke downgraded to Joe Sakic for me. Significant but not terribly so, basically a 2-spot drop on the center chart.

It gets much more complicated when actual players are involved though.
At center it's not a bad downgrade. When looking at defensemen? It's the downgrade from Red Kelly to Brad Park. Which is about twice as significant as when looking at centers.

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Old
04-02-2013, 09:51 AM
  #464
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
At center it's not a bad downgrade. When looking at defensemen? It's the downgrade from Red Kelly to Brad Park. Which is about twice as significant as when looking at centers.
That's why I tried to look at the picks and at the guys I'd take myself, discounting the Annual Imbecilic Run At Defensemen™.

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Old
04-02-2013, 10:35 AM
  #465
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
That's why I tried to look at the picks and at the guys I'd take myself, discounting the Annual Imbecilic Run At Defensemen™.
The "run" on defensemen does not happen at the end of the 1st round, but towards the end of the 2nd; guys like Park and Chelios are not drafted out of desperation. If anything, it is centers like Clarke and Trottier who are most overrated in the first round relative to their peers, so your analysis vis-a-vis centers is kind of garbage, to put it bluntly.

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04-02-2013, 10:42 AM
  #466
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The "run" on defensemen does not happen at the end of the 1st round, but towards the end of the 2nd; guys like Park and Chelios are not drafted out of desperation. If anything, it is centers like Clarke and Trottier who are most overrated in the first round relative to their peers, so your analysis vis-a-vis centers is kind of garbage, to put it bluntly.
The fact that there is this much discussion on if the trade is "even" or if it should be vetoed clearly shows that it should not be vetoed.

Stop and think why the veto was created, you guys are setting quite the precedent for future trades if this new trade does not go through.

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04-02-2013, 10:43 AM
  #467
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I am 100% against both deals. I do, however, realize that I have a conflict of interest, and that could potientially taint my opinion, and that's why I will not vote.

Just because I won't vote doesn't mean I won't make a few comments.



Just wanted to point out that I threw it out there right off the bat, and nobody had an issue with it. It's not like this went under the radar. I brought it up specifically because I figured some people may not have realized we were co-GMs.
I commend you then for being honest with the bolded.

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04-02-2013, 11:03 AM
  #468
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
The fact that there is this much discussion on if the trade is "even" or if it should be vetoed clearly shows that it should not be vetoed.

Stop and think why the veto was created, you guys are setting quite the precedent for future trades if this new trade does not go through.
In case you hadn't noticed, mark, I am not inclined to veto the deal at this point. And no, there has not been discussion as to whether or not the revised deal is even, which it clearly is not, but rather as to whether or not it is imbalancingly uneven. Now tell me, you old fox, was the original trade your idea?

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04-02-2013, 11:48 AM
  #469
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
In case you hadn't noticed, mark, I am not inclined to veto the deal at this point. And no, there has not been discussion as to whether or not the revised deal is even, which it clearly is not, but rather as to whether or not it is imbalancingly uneven. Now tell me, you old fox, was the original trade your idea?

Both deals were proposed to me by MB.

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04-02-2013, 11:49 AM
  #470
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And that's the 100% truth.

I initially pm'd him to see if we could work something out. We have been going back and forth and both of the deals were proposed by him.


I honestly can't see how a team with lindsay savard maltsev chara gerard pronovost etc... is taking so much heat? That's a very very solid core.

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04-02-2013, 12:05 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The "run" on defensemen does not happen at the end of the 1st round, but towards the end of the 2nd; guys like Park and Chelios are not drafted out of desperation. If anything, it is centers like Clarke and Trottier who are most overrated in the first round relative to their peers, so your analysis vis-a-vis centers is kind of garbage, to put it bluntly.
The run on defensemen happens all through the early part of the draft (though yes, it's most egregious in the 2nd round), they're virtually always drafted at a premium, just like goalies seem to be drafted at discount. Hasek and Roy are much better goalies than Lidstrom is D-man, but they don't go in top-10, yet he does. When the best LW ever goes after SIX d-men, and best goalie after seven (and second-best after TEN), it's very obvious that D-men go too early in general.

I'm also pretty sure it stems from the 'true #1' obsession and generally being way too hard on D-men. People will bemoan when a '#3 type' like Desjardins ends up on top pairing, yet will not blink an eye when low-end 2nd-liners somehow find themselves playing on the top line.

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04-02-2013, 12:31 PM
  #472
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
And that's the 100% truth.

I initially pm'd him to see if we could work something out. We have been going back and forth and both of the deals were proposed by him.


I honestly can't see how a team with lindsay savard maltsev chara gerard pronovost etc... is taking so much heat? That's a very very solid core.
Well, here`s how I would rank those players:

Lindsay = elite 1st liner
Savard = average 2nd liner
Maltsev = elite 2nd liner

Gerard = average 1st pair
Chara = average 1st pair


MB sacrificed a lot to build an very strong blueline. Unless he`s getting something very significant up front, losing Red Kelly cripples his team.

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04-02-2013, 01:03 PM
  #473
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
And that's the 100% truth.

I initially pm'd him to see if we could work something out. We have been going back and forth and both of the deals were proposed by him.

I honestly can't see how a team with lindsay savard maltsev chara gerard pronovost etc... is taking so much heat? That's a very very solid core.
I believe you, mark. Imbalanced trade proposals seem to work both ways in the ATD. Sometimes the idea comes from the GM who stands to make a profit, but just as often it comes from the GM who stands to take a big loss. Some of you people would be better off sending your wives to buy cars.

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04-02-2013, 01:10 PM
  #474
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Well, here`s how I would rank those players:

Lindsay = elite 1st liner
Savard = average 2nd liner
Maltsev = elite 2nd liner

Gerard = average 1st pair
Chara = average 1st pair


MB sacrificed a lot to build an very strong blueline. Unless he`s getting something very significant up front, losing Red Kelly cripples his team.
I'd say Ted Lindsay is something very significant.

I really think you guys are downplaying how good MB's top 3 still is. Chara - Gerard is a perfect fit and then he has Pronovost anchoring his 2nd pairing.

Now add on Ted Lindsay and Denis Savard who add way more scoring and toughness and he is ahead of the curve.

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04-02-2013, 01:11 PM
  #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Well, here`s how I would rank those players:

Lindsay = elite 1st liner
Savard = average 2nd liner
Maltsev = elite 2nd liner

Gerard = average 1st pair
Chara = average 1st pair


MB sacrificed a lot to build an very strong blueline. Unless he`s getting something very significant up front, losing Red Kelly cripples his team.
and please stop trying to post things like the bolded, we all know that is incorrect.

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